258 replies to this topic

[Viper69]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 January 2013 - 02:48 PM, said:

"Balancing" Clan artificially to somehow make it "equalize" to the Inner Spheres tech is just plain idiotic at best . (They have 300 year SUPERIOR technology people.... That's like taking the USMC of Today and siccing it against the forces from the Revolutionary war..... technology improves... it doesn't stay balanced)

Its funny you draw that comparison. We have tech in game a thousand years from our current tech yet we cant see behind our mechs with rear cameras. We have crosshairs instead of lock on target reticles. Hell we dont even have ballistic lead indicators for our ballistic weapons and those were used during ww2. So please tell me again why they cant balance clan tech with inner sphere tech again because they are "300 years more advanced"?

Also "if" clan tech were brought in the only way to balance things is by mech threat level. I honestly see clan mechs only dropping against clan mechs or groups who specifically say by toggling that they want dropped with and against clan mechs. With pgi being so tight lipped on the plans all our speculation is doing is causing more rifts by name calling and tantrum throwing.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

I don't know why people think of it as obsolete. Slightly longer ranges makes it better than previous tech...does not make previous tech "obsolete". An enemy AC/20 is still going to hurt just as much even if yours can hit slightly farther out.

The IS was already recovering Lostech at the start of the Clan invasion. IS already has some ER and Ultra and Pulse and Streak weapons. Clans just have more variety of them. Clans have Omnimechs, but IS has variants of each mech model too. The differences are not as dramatic as they seam IMO.

What makes it Obsolete?

Well lets tackle the 2 Big Boys of the Game, the Atlas-K for the Inner Sphere, and the Daishi.....

Both 100 tons, (tie)
and both stock will be about 48 kph (tie)
Both Mount approximately 19 tons of Standard Armor. (Tie)
Atlas has 20 SHS, the Daishi 15 DHS (advantage Dasihi, +10 heat dissipation)

Armament: Atlas K: 45.5 tons vs Daishi: 50.5 tons. (advantage Daishi +5)

so far pretty minor, but lets look at firepower:

Atlas- K (Gauss x1, LRM20x1, ER L laserx2, Mpulse x2) approximately 75-80 alpha
Daishi Prime: (UAC/5x2, ER L Laserx4, Mpulsex4, LRM/10x1) Approx. 95-100 alpha
(both overheat and shut down)

What Happens if I mimic the Atlas-Ks weapons......
I shave off 10 tons....added to my already existing 5 ton advantage.... +5 tons.... and those same weapons do an extra 6 pts damage... while my LRMs have no minimum range, my pulses have DOUBLE the range, my ER Larges 150% the range.

All the while my XL engine only puts 2 crits per torso, allowing me to Zombie WITH AN XL, and my DHS take up 33% less weight (and who here really believes that Clan DHS wont ALL function at 2.0 efficiency? I would bank on it). so Now I use that extra 15 tons to what... add another Gauss Rifle with 3 tons of ammo? More heat sinks?

Take the current Stalker 6 PPC boat.... vs the Masakari/Warhawk prime.
Same tonnage, similar armor, simlar DHS number. (about 20 each)
BUT.... the Warhawk does the same damage as the Stalker... using 4 ER PPCs, weaning 30 less heat burden on an alpha. AND has room to add an LRM 10 into that...... and while that Stalker is pulling 48 kph (if it's lucky) the Warhawk is pulling 64 kph, and has those PPCs in arms with full traverse ability, allowing it PPC pepper your Stalker while it circle jerks you.

The advantage is very much there.

Taemien, on 31 January 2013 - 07:53 AM, said:

Alright, I love the fiction just like any other Btechie out there. But even I will say I don't want my Clan opponents following Zelbrigen. That would be ridiculous. I would toast 4 of them before they could even react. Thats if you can even encourage them to play like that.

No, they need to play like we do to stay competitive. I've played against Clans in Planetary Leagues where I was forced to use IS tech before. Its possible to do and very possible to succeed. In fact my unit was one of the few to annihilate a clan in that particular league.

All that needs to be done is like I said before:

Reduce their torsotwist and arm movements in comparison to their IS counterparts. Forcing them to use the strengths of their weapons in long range direct fire and fast skirmishing roles. This way IS mechs will have a better range of movement and will be better at brawling which is an Inner Sphere tactic anyway.

In addition, IS will have access to indirect fire from LRMs. Clan LRMs cannot indirect fire (they are direct fire, hence the lack of minimum range).

To add to this, do not allow Clan to share targeting info (no C3).


This would balance the two techs and make them play differently. Not simply have one side have better tech.

Really.. since you know what those mechs will have, apparently, and how they will operate, you will toast 4? Man I hope I drop with you on the first Clan Invasion drop... and after we have BOTH been smoked by the Same MadCat.. tell me how you are going to smoke 4 of them again.....

[Sadistic Savior]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 January 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

The advantage is very much there.

The advantage is not overwhelming enough to make the other tech "obsolete". Obsolete implies that the new stuff is dramatically superior, which it is not.

IS has access to most Clan tech already...they just do not have as much variety. Because only specific items in each category match Clan Tech. IS already has Streak and Pulse and ER and XL and Ultra and Endo and Ferro and DHS.

Most weapon advantages are range related, and are therefore nullified in range-restrictive environments like cities.

Edited by Sadistic Savior, 31 January 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Viper69, on 31 January 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Its funny you draw that comparison. We have tech in game a thousand years from our current tech yet we cant see behind our mechs with rear cameras. We have crosshairs instead of lock on target reticles. Hell we dont even have ballistic lead indicators for our ballistic weapons and those were used during ww2. So please tell me again why they cant balance clan tech with inner sphere tech again because they are "300 years more advanced"?

Also "if" clan tech were brought in the only way to balance things is by mech threat level. I honestly see clan mechs only dropping against clan mechs or groups who specifically say by toggling that they want dropped with and against clan mechs. With pgi being so tight lipped on the plans all our speculation is doing is causing more rifts by name calling and tantrum throwing.

the differences being that the Inner Sphere used to have all the things you mentioned.. until they bludgeoned themselves halfway back to the Stoneage. Most of the Tech in Btech still being constructed is by automated factories that they barely know how to maintain, let alone actually FIX. They are only in the last 15 years pulling out of that technological tailspin.

And I see 90% of the people on this topic actually debating and discussing... not throwing tantrums and causing rifts.

[Dayuhan]

It is a fact of war that any time a better way of doing something is introduced that it will cause a temporary imbalance in the war. The British used the bow to devestate the French army because the French beleive the bow was just a hunters weapon. When the black-powder cannon was introduced it made catapults and trebuchets look like childrens toys and as cannons became larger and better castle walls became a thing of the past. The same will be true with the introduction of Clan tech in to MWO - at first it will cause an imbalance because it is something new and better than what is currently available. Then combat tactics will adapt, counters will be devised, and Clan tech will lose its edge.

[Ozric]

It's the purists that have to back down this time. OP clans would break the community, and balance in a competitive online game always trumps roleplaying.

[Sadistic Savior]

Ozric, on 31 January 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

It's the purists that have to back down this time. OP clans would break the community, and balance in a competitive online game always trumps roleplaying.

Explain to me how using ratios would imbalance the game.

And no one is backing down...the devs have said they would be insane not to exploit the Clans to sell MC. The Clans will be just like sex with Kobe...you can kick and scream all you want, but it's gonna happen.

Edited by Sadistic Savior, 31 January 2013 - 08:18 AM.

[skiffman]

I have a good idea to keep everyone and their mother from using clan mechs its so simple,
add a 50% or more penalty on cbill and xp gain when using a clan mech, therefore not everyone will use them because they make way less money and the people with clan mechs will use their IS mechs to make money thus there will be a balance in the world and I bet about 30% of people will be using clan at any one moment because you will have ppl w clan mechs using IS to make money and ppl with clan mechs who are seldomly using their mechs to have more fun but on a 1.5:1 IS:clan ratio it would be fun and It would definately make me still use my IS mechs to make money for new mechs and toys , you could also make clan mechs more expensive on TOP of this and also get rid of XP upgrades for clan mechs because they are already pretty much upgraded

What you think?

or make it cost C bills like 100,000 to use a clan mech per match....

[Bishop Steiner]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

The advantage is not overwhelming enough to make the other tech "obsolete". Obsolete implies that the new stuff is dramatically superior, which it is not.

IS has access to most Clan tech already...they just do not have as much variety. Because only specific items in each category match Clan Tech. IS already has Streak and Pulse and ER and XL and Ultra and Endo and Ferro and DHS.

Yes they have Steaks....

Streak 2 that weights 1.5 tons. Clan Streak 2? 1 ton. oh, and then they have the Streak 4 and Streak 6.. both weighing the same as the dumbfire SRMs of the IS (and btw.. the clans have dumbfire SRMS too.... and they weigh half of what the IS do)

Inner Sphere has ER Large Lasers... that do the same damage as a normal, adds a couple hundred meters of range and 50% more Heat. The Clan Version is 20% lighter, causes 20% more damage and has almost DOUBLE the range range of a Large Laser. And they have ER small and medium. Oh and that Medium is almost a perfect clone in range and damage(450 meter ranges, the Medium doing 7 damage to the Larges 8) for the IS Large.... while weigh 80% less and generating only 65% of the heat.

Er PPCs are not too different, except again the Clan one is 1 ton lighter, and does 50% more damage. Oh and it takes up one less Crit, so you can fit it in say, your Center Torso. Or just free up room for more Heat SInks. (In fact, MOST Clan weapons, take up less crits.... an ER Large is ONE crit.. you can stick a frikkking Large LAser in your Awesomes head.)

Gauss? The closest to even. Same range, heat and damage.... but their Gauss weighs as much as our AC/10.

LRM rack, half the weight, no minimum range. Nuff said.

UACs? Yeah... we have a UAC/5. They have it too.. and it's lighter. And they have a UAC/2, 10 and 20. (If you ain't scared of what a 4 UAC2 or 4 UAC5 Cataphract could do.......) Oh..and those Dual AC/20 Catapults that causs you to pucker your sphincter when you round the corner? How about one with DOUBLE fire rate, so its basically firing 4 AC/20s at you? And yeah, theirs weigh 2 tons less, so you can stock up more ammo. AND, they take less crits so now you can fit Dual AC/20 Ultras.. AND an XL engine in that mech. (Meaning more DHS, which, again, you can fit more of, because they only take up 2 crits instead of 3) and of course ammo, and more speed.

Also, Clan Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous take up 1/2 the critical space... so they are fully usable on all but the largest assaults. And the Clan Ferro is tougher than IS, making it actually WORTH equipping.



See, if you take any ONE item, and look at it, not a hug deal. Butt the clan mech doesn't have just one advantage. It is superior in EVERY aspect. Being 10% faster, 10% tougher, 10% harder hitting and 10% more heat efficient (just using random number for a point) doesn't add to simply being 10% better, but it jumps several orders of magnitude in the efficiency difference.

And that ain't even mentioning that the Clan targeting Computer makes mechs like the Warhawk the ultimate Sniper. People complaining about Gaussapults head-shooting em from across Caustic now with Target Zoom Mod? Yeah... a child's toy in comparison.

Seriously, if you can't put that picture together, I dunno what to tell you.

[Eddy Hawkins]

Broceratops, on 30 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

that second video isnt clan mechs. mw4 was like 3060+

also that guy was a terrible pilot. didn't even move

Hmmmm, there are several Clan mechs in the second vid...

Attackers: looks like three Nova Cats (Clan) and one Uziel (IS)

Defenders:
Sigma Lead - Mad Dog a.k.a Vulture (Clan)
Sigma Two - Shadow Cat (Clan)
Sigma Three? - Cougar (Clan)
Sigma Four? - Raven (IS)

Edited by Eddy Hawkins, 31 January 2013 - 08:26 AM.

[Sadistic Savior]

Making them MC only (and expensive) will also restrict the number of Clan players.

I personally don't have a problem with that. We already have IS mechs that are MC only. I don't think free players are necessarily entitled to play as the Clans.

Edited by Sadistic Savior, 31 January 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Viper69]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 January 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

the differences being that the Inner Sphere used to have all the things you mentioned.. until they bludgeoned themselves halfway back to the Stoneage. Most of the Tech in Btech still being constructed is by automated factories that they barely know how to maintain, let alone actually FIX. They are only in the last 15 years pulling out of that technological tailspin.

And I see 90% of the people on this topic actually debating and discussing... not throwing tantrums and causing rifts.

Very true but you wouldnt lose tech that has been in existence for literally over a thousand years. That would be like us beating each other down so bad we forget how to make gun powder. However what you say is true about the fiction in btech which is at the heart of the discussion. I think that clan tech will be used in a special league of basically unlimited class matches where matches are preset based on mech threat level and or a bidding system. The short term who knows but I sure hope it is well thought out. If I cream a clanner I dont want him/her have any reason to say that they lost other than through their own poor skill. Also you are right I misspoke about the arguing everyone seems cool so far.

[Ozric]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Explain to me how using ratios would imbalance the game.

If by ratios you mean 12vs10 matches, then it's because away from the RNG of rolling dice, 12vs10 is highly stacked in the favor of the larger team. More human brains, more targeting reticules, etc. In order to balance this Clan tech will have to be crazy OP, and at that point all IS mechs will be considered low tech, useless, or even noobish. Thus, everyone stops playing IS, and we're back to where we started but with only Clan mechs on the field. Endless QQ follows, OP, IMBA, P2W, WTF.

Clan tech must simply be the next few tiers of equipment, and be balanced accordingly.

If you didn't mean 12vs10 matches, then perhaps you should rephrase the question.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ozric, on 31 January 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

It's the purists that have to back down this time. OP clans would break the community, and balance in a competitive online game always trumps roleplaying.

Ain't gonna happen.

Why? Because Mechwarrior ain't WoW. It Ain't TF2. Meaning? It will NEVER have the same huge across the board casual play fanbase appeal of those games. Never has. Never will. And so if it designs it's business model to specifically cater to the Casual crowd, it is already fighting an uphill battle. It has always engendered an ultra strong core crowd though, and a fair sized one. If you cater to the casuals, they will come and go (most casuals will be playing something totally different in 6 months, no matter what), and this game will never retain enough long term casual players to stay afloat. So if it drives off those core players, it sinks. If it retains that core group, and a constantly rotating cast of casuals, it will succeed.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 31 January 2013 - 08:33 AM.

[Sadistic Savior]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 January 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Seriously, if you can't put that picture together, I dunno what to tell you.

I did pull it together. You are taking minor differences and blowing them out of proportion IMO.

A car that can go 250 mph does not make the care that can go 200mph obsolete. One is clearly better than the other, but the 250mph car does not make the 200mph car worthless. or Obsolete.

Ratios will fix it. Your uber Clan Mech is not going to last long against two IS mechs of the same tonnage. It's extended range and slightly lesser-tonnage stuff will not save it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

I did pull it together. You are taking minor differences and blowing them out of proportion IMO.

A car that can go 250 mph does not make the care that can go 200mph obsolete. One is clearly better than the other, but the 250mph car does not make the 200mph car worthless. or Obsolete.

Ratios will fix it. Your uber Clan Mech is not going to last long against two IS mechs of the same tonnage. It's extended range and slightly lesser-tonnage stuff will not save it.

If both cars are competing in the same race, the 200 mph one IS obsolete. Because it cannot hope to compete with the 250 mph one. Especially when the 250 mph one also corners better, accelerates faster and gets better fuel mileage so it has to pit less.

Why was the F-14 phased out of service? A lot fo countries still fly them, and it's performance never got worse. But iit was supplanted by a new generation of airframe that could do everything the F-14 could, in a lighter, easier to maintain package. Hence the Efficiency of the SuperBug obsoleted the Tomcat.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 31 January 2013 - 08:36 AM.

[Gargoth]

if implemented correctly, i dont see it breaking the game.

One examble could be that clan tech is more complex, and more powerful = it takes critical hits more easier. or it has fever critical points than inner sphere tech, meaning clan tech breaks down easier after all armor have been stripped off.
Same would go for clan mechs, after armor is stripped, they would be easier to crit.

thusly, inner sphere, endures more and is more solid & trustworthy, clan tech is more powerful, but requires skill and planning to be used effectively.

that also results in players using clan tech to actually play wise and carefully, instead of rushing in headlong guns blazing.

[Sadistic Savior]

Ozric, on 31 January 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

If by ratios you mean 12vs10 matches, then it's because away from the RNG of rolling dice, 12vs10 is highly stacked in the favor of the larger team. More human brains, more targeting reticules, etc. In order to balance this Clan tech will have to be crazy OP.

In the table top game I think the ratio was 1.4 that we used, and that seemed to work out well.

Regardless, there is a ratio that will work for MWO. Whether it is 10 to 12, or 8 to 12, or 11 to 12 or whatever. Clan mechs are clearly superior 1 vs 1, but ratios will even the odds.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

I am. They are a core part of Battletech IMO. The "real" Battletech did not start until the Clan invasion.

They can be easily balanced with Mech ratios. I really think people blow it out of proportion.

Actually the "real" Battletech was playing for many years before the Clans. The Clans were a nebulous idea from inception that would prove the "end game" for the original story arc ideas. That being said 90% of old time Btech TT players seem to feel that the game fell apart when the Clans were introduced, and the mid 90s actually seemed to bear that out.

Pretty sure neither side can actually claim what constitutes the "real" battletech.

[Bagheera]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

But is that PGIs fault or the community's?

I foresee a thread that demands separation of IS and Clan in the future!

The Community's fault. Hands down, every time, every game. Never meant to imply otherwise.

There are always the rare few who provide valuable feedback and suggestions, but more often than not are lost in the noise of QQ.

HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Someone?

Anyone?

Me.

…to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.

Edited by Bagheera, 31 January 2013 - 08:41 AM.