258 replies to this topic

[DEN_Ninja]

You must get captured by the clans, made into a bondsman.

Then you will fight to become a warrior again. You lose all your c bills, mechs, and mc. You have to do grueling work as a technician of some sort for the clans.

Then you might get a clan mech with clan tech...maybe.

[River Walker]

I have no fathe in PGI,so fare thy have Fickup the game with allowing Sink Dropping and ECM on 100 ton Mechs and no new content for the player as in MAPS.
So do I think their going to be a Prob.
YIP I do and I think MWO is all ready showing sine its TOAST by 2014 because they cant even keep up with player Content never mind keeping up with their own posted update time.

Edited by River Walker, 31 January 2013 - 10:05 AM.

[HiplyRustic]

A general note to those who have said, essentially, "Yes, I fully intend to spend two years of my gaming in MWO losing every match I play in factional warfare... since I will be opposing the clans and I am on record as saying I know the Clans will be steamrollers for that long":

No offense gents, but I'll believe you actually intend to play two years of being on the receiving end of continual *** kicking and have the pilot records and rankings to show for it when I see it. I mean the no offense part; kudos to you for even saying you are, for the sake of RP, willing to take two years of pounding and being on the side that is guaranteed to lose for an extended period of time. I simply question your stamina for abuse and the length of time you will derive enjoyment from getting beat over and over again. (Genuine masochists do not need to defend a position...that's way more than I need to know about anyone here )

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Making them MC only (and expensive) will also restrict the number of Clan players.

I personally don't have a problem with that. We already have IS mechs that are MC only. I don't think free players are necessarily entitled to play as the Clans.

That's pure P2W...and even if some of us don't see it that way the review sites that PGI will depend on for many of their subscribers come retail will.

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

A car that can go 250 mph does not make the care that can go 200mph obsolete. One is clearly better than the other, but the 250mph car does not make the 200mph car worthless. or Obsolete.

It does if they are both racing on the same track.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 31 January 2013 - 10:30 AM.

[Bagheera]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

Making them MC only (and expensive) will also restrict the number of Clan players.

I personally don't have a problem with that. We already have IS mechs that are MC only. I don't think free players are necessarily entitled to play as the Clans.

If you had ever tried playing the p2w shooter "Combat Arms," you would understand why this is a terrible idea.

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Clan equipment Will obsolete Inner Sphere equipment upon capturing it.

Which brings an interesting point/idea. At the moment all of our salvage is calculated as FakeMoneyUnits. One way to add a little depth is to award parts salvage for IS units who defeat clan units. If that could be done in some fashion that was a balance between rewarding individual performance and equitable distribution to the team as a whole, it could be pretty cool.

[Zaptruder]

Kdogg788, on 31 January 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

It wouldn't work because your reinforcements would be coming in piecemeal as players die off in their first mech, therefore minimizing the benefit of ever having a second mech because the clan force can focus the new mechs as they come on the field.

-k

Why do you think players would act like no brain zombies?

Obviously players can react to the battlefield. In the worst case scenario, you regroup with your second mechs and then fight worn down mechs with fresh mechs.

The problem that we're trying to solve here is quite complex with several constraints.

1. Adhere to TT and canon as much as possible. i.e. Clan mechs *will* be overpowered.
2. Incentivize players to continue playing IS mechs as well as Clan mechs.
3. Ensure that the playerbase is homogenous enough to continue providing low queue times.

Problem with ideas involving 5v8 or 5v12 is that it doesn't sufficiently incentivize players to run IS mechs. Clan mechs are still on an individual basis way superior, and perhaps more fun to play as a result (because winning is part of the fun). Additionally, it forces clan vs IS mechs which splits the player base.

The extra drop substitution provides a personal incentive for IS players; an extra life on the battlefield is a big plus, allowing you to mitigate any mistakes or vunerabilities with an extra mech.

But having said that... once the community is large enough to support a community warfare metagame that makes sense; one that can have multiple factions and multiple player queues, then you could use the CW balancing factors.

Even then... I think games will largely break down into CW games and just normal pickup and play games; the reserve mech solution will continue to work in the latter situation (where you'd want a mix of mechs, so that you can play a clan mech while your friend plays an IS mech).

[Ragz]

1) The biggest "upset" i've noticed is this game has been made to regularly add new elements to it, some with effect so great people who were winning lose, and losers win. (Generally creating the ()*#$&ing and moaning). BUT, this happens in real life too really. I feel this has become part of the game, learn to overcome the new technology or embrace it, as previously mentioned, if the U.S. were still using muskets do you really think we'd be were we are today (militarily speaking)? Due to hard points though etc. i do believe it will come down to play style vs cosmetics etc. any "one-sidedness" will be precieved by those's that don't evolve with the game.

2) with anything in this game there is cost. will it be p2w, honestly the opportunity is there BUT, lets put this another way. I'm sure some of you have played shooters. You start with a basic kit, or nothing at all except a basic assault rifle, smg etc. as you progress you build up an arsenal and skill sets based on those weapons. I see no difference. It's just extending the "end game" (since there isn't any except personal preference) for veteran players. I'm sure there will be option to by into higher end market items just like there is now. The difference then will be veteran players will make noobs look stupid in the same mech, and the noobs will cry. Some veterans will get run down by noobs because they wanna roll in out dated equipment and still be boss. they will cry. In the end this is a game, with CONFLICT. This means some will win and some will lose, and none of the outcome has ever, EVER, in the history of man, been because both sides were fair.

YES you have to take into account new players and how to make things fun for them so lets nerf the vets right? I mean really? Put a vet and a noob in the same mech, and guess whats gonna happen for a while... the noob will get better and the vet will stop playing cause they have nothing new to master (or the noob will leave after being housed 40+ times in a row in s'y equipment and the vet can go back to what ever they were doing). My only fear is them leveling the field to the point skill doesn't matter, (which almost happened with lrms thank god for ecm, cry some more). Once they do that there's nothing left for vets to do except take full advantage of the opportunity. which is where P2W comes from, trying to make things fair for those that have no idea what is going on, and people that do taking advantage of it. So far pgi has done a decent balancing act by giving the noobs a shot at better game money via "hero mechs", not gonna win any prizes, BUT they help get the money rolling in so noobs learn at a proper handicap, and can evolve properly into vets. I think things will work out in the end either way.

P.s. this game isn't easy to pick up first off, it never has been. If it was one of the titles would have been a house hold name by now (the closest one being mech assault for xbox where a mentally challenged individual would have been a star), but instead its a cult classic (because it's not easy). So some food for though, if we aim at those that have never played or have no interest, whats left for those that do. Cause mech assault was a s'y mechwarrior game.
$0.02

[Sadistic Savior]

Bagheera, on 31 January 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

If you had ever tried playing the p2w shooter "Combat Arms," you would understand why this is a terrible idea.

Other F2P MMOs have paid content and do not seem to have a problem attracting players.

This sense of entitlement by free players is why I did not like the F2P model from the beginning. But many MMOs have proven it can work.

HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

That's pure P2W.

It is only P2W if both sides are numerically even.

If your side has a numerical advantage to counter the tech advantage, how is it P2W?

HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

and even if some of us don't see it that way the review sites that PGI will depend on for many of their subscribers come retail will.

So what? It has happened before and will happen again. All those MMOs are still here, and still making money, and still getting players.

[Ragz]

also, why do they have to make the old mech's viable still? where in the world has that ever happened? Yo go out and walk around with a cell phone from the 90's cause they make em so much better then right? huh am i right I mean, whats with this whole smart phone being better thing its just P2W. derp derp.

some one mentioned earlier a 200mph car vs a 250mph car, and his retort was of course teh 250mph car will win,,

i disagree strongly, that is the most short sighted answer ever and its why it doesn't matter if they add clan tech gracefully or not, theres gonna be crying.

(if you've ever done 200 which i doubt, or even closer to 100, things change, its an exponential change and if the driver of either car has no idea what their doing, (in fact even if the driver of either car has had some training to do so.) it doesn't matter what car they're in, the difference is, when the noob in the 200 car loses he will cry about it not being fair. but put the vet in the 200 car and the noob in the 250, and i bet the vet wins still. Then there's crying that its too hard (no one admits that) or he cheated im sure the he cheated sounds a lot more likely to a lot of people.

[Stephen Gopin]

As a battletech player of 20+ years I'd really like to weigh in here:

Why not balance the multiplayer matches the same way they balanced the board game:
Create a battle value. This is a rating separate from tonnage, IS, or Clan, based on the properties of the mech' (speed, armor, a heat based weapons value), and force matches with similar battle values. As long as the BV is calculated properly, it should not matter what tech you have in order to get into a balanced game
Just my humble thoughts.

[HiplyRustic]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Other F2P MMOs have paid content and do not seem to have a problem attracting players.

Name one major market P2W MMO in the NA/European market that is cruising along and not having problems attracting players. RMT for content is not always P2W, P2W is always RMT for content...don't confuse the two..

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

This sense of entitlement by free players is why I did not like the F2P model from the beginning. But many MMOs have proven it can work.

There is no sense of entitlement with questioning how a thing will be balanced or in not wanting the game to go P2W. Also, don't confuse someone's lack of a Founder's tag with a lack of being financially invested. There are more than a few of us without tags who have money in this game. Pro poster tip: Ad hominem argumentation doesn't further your argument at all.

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

It is only P2W if both sides are numerically even.

Do tell. On one side are 5 million well trained infantrymen available for free. On the other side are the few thousand techs, support, pilots, and assets of the 509th Bomb Wing. Them you have to pay for.

Pick one.

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

So what? It has happened before and will happen again. All those MMOs are still here, and still making money, and still getting players.

Name several tier 1 MMOs in NA/Europe with a P2W model which have been called out as such on the MMO review sites and which are still here and still making money...I'll wait.

Edited by HiplyRustic, 31 January 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[Sug]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

The "real" Battletech did not start until the Clan invasion.

Bishop Steiner, on 31 January 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

I can all but guarantee that Alex has been cranking out Clan designs, and the Modelers modeling them (along with balance testing and other stuff) in parallel to the IS stuff we are seeing as the Beta progresses. I would bet you my last Commando that they have been internally designing and testing Clan Tech at a 1 for 1 rate to the Inner Sphere stuff.

That would be awesome if true.

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

I signed up to be in the 10th Lyran Guard and be on Huntress when the Clans fall. So yeah, i'm here to fight Clanners.

Then you might have to design your own game : /

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

..the devs have said they would be insane not to exploit the Clans to sell MC.

Source!?

skiffman, on 31 January 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

add a 50% or more penalty on cbill and xp gain when using a clan mech, therefore not everyone will use them because they make way less money and the people with clan mechs will use their IS mechs to make money

What you think?

Clans don't use cbills. If the Clans are going to be a true faction then people that switch over should have a Clan only account they can switch to.

Viper69, on 31 January 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

Just look at what happened to mechwarrior 4 if anyone wants a history lesson. Those weapons did TT damage and heat against standard armor. In competition play nobody i mean nobody ran IS mechs or tech. Clan tech was the common denominator in every match. Period end of story. PGI will need to be creative.

Bishop Steiner, on 31 January 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

That is also the point.. if everyone has total access to Clan Tech, then Clan Tech will be chosen over equivalent IS tech, at least 90% of the time. To stay competitive, one will HAVE TO.

Yes. Yes.

Ragz, on 31 January 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

(if you've ever done 200 which i doubt, or even closer to 100, things change, its an exponential change and if the driver of either car has no idea what their doing, (in fact even if the driver of either car has had some training to do so.) it doesn't matter what car they're in, the difference is, when the noob in the 200 car loses he will cry about it not being fair. but put the vet in the 200 car and the noob in the 250, and i bet the vet wins still. Then there's crying that its too hard (no one admits that) or he cheated im sure the he cheated sounds a lot more likely to a lot of people.

Come on buddy. You know that was just an example with arbitrary numbers. No need to pick it apart.

[Sadistic Savior]

HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Name one major market P2W MMO in the NA/European market that is cruising along and not having problems attracting players. RMT is not always P2W, P2W is always RMY...don't confuse the two..

STO has paid only content. Ships you cannot "earn" but must buy.

HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

There is no sense of entitlement with questioning how a thing will be balanced or in not wanting the game to go P2W. If you're aiming that comment specifically at me, then know that I have a couple hundred dollars in the game as of now...you? Don't confuse my lack of a Founder's tag with a lack of being financially invested. Also, don't ad hominem me. It doesn't further your argument at all.

Defensive much? All I have done is state opinions and ask questions. Relax.

There is no need to read insults that are not there.

HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Do tell.

The tech advantage is countered by numerical superiority. Or are you trying to claim that superior tech alone = an "I win" button? If so, I disagree.

HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

Name one tier 1 MMO in NA/Europe with a P2W model that is still here and still making money...just one.

Why the "tier 1" qualification? That appears to be a tacit admission that it is indeed possible.

Edited by Sadistic Savior, 31 January 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[SeDevri]

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Well, I don't see the problem myself. PGI has already stated Clan won't be MC to get, it'll be open for the players just like the IS is. What they haven't stated is how'll they will deal with Clan vs IS issues, and I don't see why that's an issue to begin with.

Yes, Clan tech is quite OP compared to IS tech, so what, that's a given and it's expected, PGI can make it clear with little effort that Clan is indeed OP compared to IS so pick your faction accordingly. I'll wager you whatever you care to name that we'll still have more then enough people ready, willing and quite able to play the IS factions using only IS tech. I'm one of those people myself, don't let the Kerensky name fool you, I've played as IS in the NBT, and using nothing but IS tech we destroyed the Clans, not just a few little battles but actually removed them from the league totally destroyed. So much for the vaunted tech advantage, it's only as good as the people using it. And that wasn't even using Stars vs Lances, that was even numbers per team drops.

For MWO, it's simple, you want to be Clan, you be Clan, you get Clan Mechs and Tech and you abide by Clan rules, which means you drop in Stars not Lances, which means you'll always face the IS at a disadvantage in numbers, 5 vs 8 or 10 vs 12. PGI furthers this by giving greater rewards for going in with a lesser number of Mechs for the Clans. Taking a Star and 3 Points against 3 Lances of IS nets you more rewards then taking 2 Stars for example. Make that also work in regards to dropping against other Clans, as they do bid with each other and the Clans place great stock in using a smaller force to take out a greater force, this is the path to greatness and a Bloodname, the highest honor a Clan Mechwarrior can attain.

First off, Clan Tech itself, it's only usable on Clan Mechs, not usable with IS Mechs, at least not for a few more years, say...6 of them, because that's when IS scientists and techs get the 2 techs to work together, mostly sorta kinda So until then, you are IS you use IS Mechs and Tech, you are Clan you use Clan Mechs and Techs. Simple and easy to deal with, and it's totally canon and keeps the IS players from going all Clan and thereby removing that which makes the Clans the Clans when tech is all that's involved(cause lets face it, most of the Clan players are going to RP about as much as my shoe does and without that, the Clans are just the folks with the best guns). Now this can be modified a wee bit by allowing certain House units or Mercs working for those certain Houses access to Clan Salvage, it would be full Mechs with set equipment that can't be changed(no playing around with the config, you get what you get) because the IS has no ability to do that. This is where those Loyalty Points could come in handy, if your IS unit just HAS to have Clan toys. This could start taking place within the next year and then PGI could actually have some contest style giveaways after Tukayyid in 2 years, after ComStar ends up with so much Clan salvage.

Set it up so that you can decide to drop Clan vs Clan or Clan vs IS based on where on the map your Clan is based, and vice versa for the Inner Sphere factions. Keep in mind, the Invasion Corridor is actually rather narrow in which Houses it actually impacts, Steiner and Kurita being on the fronts line and FRR being..well..you get the point, position on the map gives you the possible opponents for a drop and you select which you want to face, IS or Clan. This will prevent the CoD kiddies who'll immediately go Clan due to the OPness of their tech from just going out and roflstomping pubbies(we all know that's a BIG attraction to many of the less mature members of the playerbase, griefing and pugstomping).

Buying a Clan Mech, something Clan Mechwarriors don't actually do, you accomplish by giving Kill Points instead of C-bills, and Clan Mechs are priced by KP. To further promote the Clan martial system and the values associated with it, base KP on the Class of the Mech, Light/Medium/Heavy/Assault and modify that based on the Class you are using to lower/raise the KP earned. That removes the money from the Clan side, which Clan Mechwarriors don't use, they just take what they want or accept what they are given depending on the situation and also gets the Clan players to be less prone to work as a team and to play more aggressively, as the Clans are wont to do, so they can get those KP for themselves, no Assist bonuses for the Clan side, as a matter of fact, give a reward for pure solo kills that recieved no damage from another friendly(the enemy damaging their own teammates shouldn't be counted in respect to this reward, none of YOUR teammates helped you and that's what matters to the Clans). This will further promote the Clan style of combat and move those players away from the team play aspect in order to make the most KP possible.

Then we IS players just let future history play itself out

*edit - clan/is tech crossover*

This right here. I have to agree with just about everything you have said in this post. I think you have a great grasp of the best way to make the game fair without losing its BT/MW canon and feel. A couple points i would like to bring up though which might enhance your ideas:

- Allow for low percentage chance of Clan salvage(items and Weapons only, no mechs at first) for IS players( I mean low, like 1% or less, this will take into account the poor ability to actually make the salvage work)

-If a IS player has Clan tech on his mech and it gets destroyed, then it is PERMANENTLY destroyed( ie. it is no longer in your mech or inventory). It should only be destroyed if it actually takes the damage and NOT if the mech its on is destroyed but the item itself is untouched. This would make people less likely to run around griefing and pwning pugs as they will be risking their limited resources.

-There should be a skill requirement to start a Clan Warrior. What i mean is, that you have to achieve a certain Rank within the IS before you can create an alternate account as a Clan Warrior(You would have to link your Clan account to your IS account as proof). This will prevent a mass exodus of players to the Clan side as soon as its introduced and at the same time ensure modicum of skill that the Clans are supposed to have anyway and help maintain at least a base IS population.

These are just a few of my ideas to expand on your, but i feel that all of them should be put into the suggestions forum.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bagheera, on 31 January 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

If you had ever tried playing the p2w shooter "Combat Arms," you would understand why this is a terrible idea.





Which brings an interesting point/idea. At the moment all of our salvage is calculated as FakeMoneyUnits. One way to add a little depth is to award parts salvage for IS units who defeat clan units. If that could be done in some fashion that was a balance between rewarding individual performance and equitable distribution to the team as a whole, it could be pretty cool.

I actually REALLY like the "Parts Salvage" idea... dunno if I am thinking in the same lines as you, since they pretty obviously can't just decide at teh end of a match "hey, Bob gets a large laser, Mike gets a PPC, etc".

BUT

If each match ended with "Salvage Points" broken down into "Inner Sphere Salvage Points" and "Clan Salvage Points" awarded separately from the C-bills, I think it could set up an interesting side part to the economy.

Have Clan Equipment ONLY available (mechs too) by purchasing with "Clan Salvage Points", for instance, which cannot be gained in any way but playing matches. So to get a Clan ER Large Laser for instance might cost "X" Clan Salvage Pts (referred to from here as CSpts), the ER PPC, "Z" CSpts. These points are only earned in Drops against Clan Opponents. So one could, slowly earn enough to kit out their IS mech (with "Clan Tech Enabler Module") to Clan Weapons and Equipment, or conceivably even "salvage" a whole Clan Mech. But if RnR gets reconstituted in CW, then you would also need Clan Salvage points to repair the Weapons and Equipment, since you can't buy s new Clan Medium Pulse Laser at RadioShack.

Ditto with Inner Sphere Matches, you can supplement your C-Bills with ISSpts (InnerSphereSalvagePoints) annd such. Is this kinda what you were thinking?

(I kinda wanna make a Poll for this now)

[HiplyRustic]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

STO has paid only content. Ships you cannot "earn" but must buy.

Here we go again with the difference between paid content and P2W. There is one. There is no ship to ship combat in STO, it's a rail-shotter side game, so no ship grants a competitive advantage.

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

There is no need to read insults that are not there.

Re-read your comment and try again.

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

The tech advantage is countered by numerical superiority. Or are you trying to claim that superior tech alone = an "I win" button? If so, I disagree.

Then pick the 5 million infantry guys and I'll take the 509th. You should have no problem with that.

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Why the "tier 1" qualification? That appears to be a tacit admission that it is indeed possible.

Fair enough, remove the qualification and lay the list of them on me. I'll still wait...

Edited by HiplyRustic, 31 January 2013 - 11:50 AM.

[Sadistic Savior]

HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Re-read your comment and try again.

If you want to take personal offense at every vague comment I make, I can't stop you.

HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Then pick the 5 million infantry guys and I'll take the 509th. You should have no problem with that.

I agree. I don't.

And if there is a problem? Maybe you need to add more. If the infantry can do any damage at all, eventually you will get to a point where numbers will overwhelm them.

HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Fair enough, remove the qualification and lay the list of them on me. I'll still wait...

So there is no MMO, in your opinion, that has paid advantages of any kind that has ever gotten new players. Ok.

[ReD3y3]

The sheer amount of content that clan tech will bring into the game will make it that much more fun.

[Bishop Steiner]

and make a poll/question topic out of it I did....
http://mwomercs.com/...king-must-have/

[HiplyRustic]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

I agree. I don't.

And if there is a problem? Maybe you need to add more. If the infantry can do any damage at all, eventually you will get to a point where numbers will overwhelm them.

It's your war to lose, be my guest.

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

So there is no MMO, in your opinion, that has paid advantages of any kind that has ever gotten new players. Ok.

Now you see, it doesn't work like that. You make a claim, I tell you to back it up, and then you either do or don't. Apparently in this case what you wrote is synonymous with "I can't name any...but this sounds better than that."

[Bishop Steiner]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

If you want to take personal offense at every vague comment I make, I can't stop you.




I agree. I don't.

And if there is a problem? Maybe you need to add more. If the infantry can do any damage at all, eventually you will get to a point where numbers will overwhelm them.




So there is no MMO, in your opinion, that has paid advantages of any kind that has ever gotten new players. Ok.

not exactly rolling out any "credible evidence to back your argument on that one..... just saying. And 5 million infantry against a hundred bombers dropping MoABs, the "numerical advantage" vanishes... literally.