258 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Sadistic Savior, on 31 January 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

The advantage is not overwhelming enough to make the other tech "obsolete". Obsolete implies that the new stuff is dramatically superior, which it is not.

IS has access to most Clan tech already...they just do not have as much variety. Because only specific items in each category match Clan Tech. IS already has Streak and Pulse and ER and XL and Ultra and Endo and Ferro and DHS.

Most weapon advantages are range related, and are therefore nullified in range-restrictive environments like cities.

Lets see if this holds water:
Gauss Rifle (IS) 15 tons 6 Crits
Gauss Rifle (Cl) 12 tons 5 Crits (I'd take this one every time)

ERPPC (IS) 7 Tons 3 crits 10 damage 15 heat.
ERPPC (Cl) 6 Tons 2 crits 15 damage 15 heat, greater range (50% more damage lighter and better range... Yes Please)

LRM20 (IS) 10 tons 6 Crits 90 M minimum 6 heat
LRM20 (Cl) 5 tons 4 Crits (IIRC) no minimum 6 heat (Oh heck yes i want 4 of these!)

Clan equipment Will obsolete Inner Sphere equipment upon capturing it.

[Bishop Steiner]

also as a note to Sadistic, Ozric and others, please do not construe my posts as attacks, or arguments, I am, as I hope you are, trying to bring several differing PoVs together, and I certainly consider yours just as valid as mine, even when I disagree with it.

[Viper69]

The matches will if done by ratio will have to be a ratio of more than 3:1 on average it could take two+ lances of ~/= 3050 IS mechs to win against a assault star of clan mechs. Let alone a well balanced star could easily be 2:1.

[Whompity]

I know MWO isn't necessarily restricted to BT canon, but just enforcing a 2:1 or 3:1 group size ratio would be the most economical (and realistic) balance mechanism.

[Viper69]

Just look at what happened to mechwarrior 4 if anyone wants a history lesson. Those weapons did TT damage and heat against standard armor. In competition play nobody i mean nobody ran IS mechs or tech. Clan tech was the common denominator in every match. Period end of story. PGI will need to be creative.

[Lightfoot]

Clans drop as Stars (5 mechs) and Binaries (10 mechs), these will be countered by IS Lances of 2 or 3 (8-12 mechs).

Something like that, but an Ace pilot in a Timberwolf, Summoner, or Mad Dog will be hard to beat. Remember, Clan DHS are 2 criticals, and Clan LRM20's are 5 tons/4 crits with no minimum range, SSRMs come in 2,4, and 6 packs and have a range of 360 meters (TT value), Clan ERPPC do 15 damage. I'll be in the Timberwolf while PGI gets things balanced.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Lets see if this holds water:
Gauss Rifle (IS) 15 tons 6 Crits
Gauss Rifle (Cl) 12 tons 5 Crits (I'd take this one every time)

ERPPC (IS) 7 Tons 3 crits 10 damage 15 heat.
ERPPC (Cl) 6 Tons 2 crits 15 damage 15 heat, greater range (50% more damage lighter and better range... Yes Please)

LRM20 (IS) 10 tons 6 Crits 90 M minimum 6 heat
LRM20 (Cl) 5 tons 4 Crits (IIRC) no minimum 6 heat (Oh heck yes i want 4 of these!)

Clan equipment Will obsolete Inner Sphere equipment upon capturing it.

That is also the point.. if everyone has total access to Clan Tech, then Clan Tech will be chosen over equivalent IS tech, at least 90% of the time. To stay competitive, one will HAVE TO. Using the 200 mph vs 250 mph illustration again... if the driver of the 200 mph car wants to be able to compete in the same circuit as the 250 mph car, he HAS to upgrade to a 250 mph care himself. Hence, his 200 mph care has become obsolete.

The only 2 factors I see making IS at all worth buying over Clan would be if the Clan Tech is (and it bloody well should be) hugely more expensive than the IS, meaning that until someone can afford a Clan Gauss, they will naturally buy an IS one. But I promise you, that same person will trade it in for the Clan version the second he can afford to.

The other time will be a few special case scenarios, such as using the Clan Blackhawk mech. It quite simply cannot use it's 12 ER Medium Lasers efficiently as it can only remove about 40% of the heat, using TT rate of fire..... with MWO rates, it's toast. That same mech, mounting 12 IS medium lasers, now has less range, and packs less alpha potential, but has a much higher DPS due to the heat sustainability. But that is a pretty special case, "laser-boat only" advantage. LRM boats would be DUMB to use IS missile in place of Clans if they did' t have to. Same with SRMs.

And I do believe people will eventually find that RnR costs were actually very useful... and if we don't have em in CW, and those costs are not prohibitive toward using Clan Tech, Houston, we can haz a problem, bro. Trew Stoary.

[TexAce]

What if they implement it that way that you can buy clan tech for your IS mech but if you choose so, you will be forced to play on the clan side, meaning you fight 5v8 with an inferior mech.

you still have the freedom you always had before (making clan tech very expensive c-bills wise) but you have to know what you are doing or else you are harming your team and will probably lose.

[DEN_Ninja]

We shouldn't even get clan tech until much much later like around October.

By then a lot of content should be in place. Guys if we are going lorewise we have months.

The first omnimechs given to the inner sphere were mostly scrapped ones that they tried to repair.

The first fully functional ones are given to the inner sphere forces at Outreach in limited numbers. That is in February and limited to only a very very few people like Hohiro II and Victor. Even then any major upgrades don't ship out for a year because manufacturing depends on Marik and getting actual data to NAIS and other various institutes.

Even then production facilities were still limited to the bigger houses because they have the means.

Chill out, we will see what happens with clan tech when we get it much much later,

[Joseph Mallan]

Inner Sphere forces out side of The Dragoons didn't get to fielding Clan Tech for over a year. The tech geeks got every scrap of it they could salvage.

[Gallowglas]

Bhael Fire, on 30 January 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

Yep. I don't see what the all uproar is about, either. They can easily balance matches by reducing clan opponents. For example, 8 IS mechs against 4 clan mechs or even 12 vs 8. Or whatever...it will depend on how powerful clan tech ends up being.

At any rate, this is a perfectly acceptable way to balance the matches and I would happy play either side if this were the case.

I think that's the only solution for balance. Personally, that's the direction I expect it to go and I think it's the correct one.

[DEN_Ninja]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Inner Sphere forces out side of The Dragoons didn't get to fielding Clan Tech for over a year. The tech geeks got every scrap of it they could salvage.

After Tukayyid Comstar administrated by Focht and Mori start giving out tech albeit very slowly. Even then the factories didn't just start rolling out clan mechs. Stuff was hard to design, research, and produce even with Steiner funds.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 31 January 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Inner Sphere forces out side of The Dragoons didn't get to fielding Clan Tech for over a year. The tech geeks got every scrap of it they could salvage.

First operational "Inner Sphere" Clan Tech equipped forces were 3 Regiments (as of the Battle of Luthien) of the Dragoons and a hodge-podge patchwork of Clan Tech in the Kell Hounds 1st Regiment (thanks to the special alliance between Jaime and Morgan). And Victor and Hohiro. By Tukayid that ratio had not changed.

And even after that, when the Great houses attempted to field Clan Mechs and Tech in the 3050s, they eventually pulled them and shipped them to RnR, because they could not keep them operational, and their failure rate was spectacular. First "wide-spread" uses of Clan tech would be the DCMS's "Inner SPhere Omni-Mechs" which were reversed engineered from Clan Mechs and designed specifically to be able to mount and use Clan Tech taken in battlefield salvage.

Even into the 3060s, most Merc Units simply could not afford to run and maintain Clan Tech. And that was IF they found engineers and Technicians remotely able to work on it in the first place.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 31 January 2013 - 09:18 AM.

[DEN_Ninja]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 January 2013 - 09:17 AM, said:

First operational "Inner Sphere" Clan Tech equipped forces were 3 Regiments (as of the Battle of Luthien) of the Dragoons and a hodge-podge patchwork of Clan Tech in the Kell Hounds 1st Regiment (thanks to the special alliance between Jaime and Morgan). And Victor and Hohiro. By Tukayid that ratio had not changed.

And even after that, when the Great houses attempted to field Clan Mechs and Tech in the 3050s, they eventually pulled them and shipped them to RnR, because they could not keep them operational, and their failure rate was spectacular. First "wide-spread" uses of Clan tech would be the DCMS's "Inner SPhere Omni-Mechs" which were reversed engineered from Clan Mechs and designed specifically to be able to mount and use Clan Tech taken in battlefield salvage.

Even into the 3060s, most Merc Units simply could not afford to run and maintain Clan Tech. And that was IF they found engineers and Technicians remotely able to work on it in the first place.

So when we hit 3057-58 we will get reliable clan tech! :3

[Thirdstar]

Tichorius Davion, on 31 January 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

So when we hit 3057-58 we will get reliable clan tech! :3

PGI will most certainly have to play loose with canon here. Because I certainly don't see an AI horde mode happening.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tichorius Davion, on 31 January 2013 - 09:24 AM, said:

So when we hit 3057-58 we will get reliable clan tech! :3

pretty much... though pretty much anyone outside the great houses could only afford little bits and pieces of it. After Operation Bulldog is when the flood gates of Clan tech were opened (helps when you annihilate an entire Clan of SmogPussies and take their toys). Truth be told, the Majority of the Inner Sphere NEVER gets widescale access to it. About the time things would have gotten easy to get, a FedCom Civil War broke out then a bunch of Hoodies started a Jihad.

Rude.

[DEN_Ninja]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 January 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

pretty much... though pretty much anyone outside the great houses could only afford little bits and pieces of it. After Operation Bulldog is when the flood gates of Clan tech were opened (helps when you annihilate an entire Clan of SmogPussies and take their toys). Truth be told, the Majority of the Inner Sphere NEVER gets widescale access to it. About the time things would have gotten easy to get, a FedCom Civil War broke out then a bunch of Hoodies started a Jihad.

Rude.

Yeah then it was back to living in huts after that. \

[HiplyRustic]

Thirdstar, on 31 January 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

But I speak through experience when I say sometimes companies simply don't care if a minor amount of P2W enters their games. As long as it's easily excused or camouflaged.

I agree, and I've seen it as well. Having said that, is there any possible way to spin Clan Tech as "minor" P2W?

[Thirdstar]

HiplyRustic, on 31 January 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

I agree, and I've seen it as well. Having said that, is there any possible way to spin Clan Tech as "minor" P2W?

Uh, hmm. You have a point. But because I can't think of something doesn't mean someone can't.

[MustrumRidcully]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 January 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Actually the "real" Battletech was playing for many years before the Clans. The Clans were a nebulous idea from inception that would prove the "end game" for the original story arc ideas. That being said 90% of old time Btech TT players seem to feel that the game fell apart when the Clans were introduced, and the mid 90s actually seemed to bear that out.

Pretty sure neither side can actually claim what constitutes the "real" battletech.

In don't know what real Battletech is, but I like the saying that pre-Clan/3025 Battletech is "Real Men's Battletech".