258 replies to this topic

[Liberty]

I doubt they will allow IS access to Clan tech for awhile since as I recall it takes the IS awhile just for them to figure out how it works. Initially all Clan Tech that wasn't captured by Mercs went to R and D for reverse engineering. After that only the mega powerful and those with connections were able to mount such weapons on their mechs. Eventually, after many IS and Clan deaths later the technology became more accessible as salvage. Not sure what Mercs did with captured Clan Tech but I imagine many sold it on the Black Market or to the highest bidder. As to Clan using IS equipment. Hmm... I imagine they wouldn't want to be caught dead in a IS mech.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

We still have absolutely zero information about how community warfare is going to work. Without that, there isn't enough information to even guess at how the clans will be implemented. Getting clantech before CW could break the game, but I'm personally not one to get worked up over rumors and speculation.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

If it's true clan tech, AKA OP, people will cry about how broken it is.

If they do dumb it down to even out with IS tech, the 'Clan' population of the old schoolers will scream 'NOT CANON!'

It's inevitable.

[Bhael Fire]

Z0MBIE Y0SHI, on 30 January 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

If it's true clan tech, AKA OP, people will cry about how broken it is.

If they do dumb it down to even out with IS tech, the 'Clan' population of the old schoolers will scream 'NOT CANON!'

It's inevitable.

They won't have to "dumb" anything down. All they have to do is reduce clan numbers in matches to a fair amount.

[AEgg]

Why does everyone think you'll be allowed to pick and choose clan or IS in the same match? That doesn't make any sense.

The only way I see clan tech being available is if one team is clan only and the other IS only for a new game mode. Find a player count that works (5v8, 8v12, whatever), and that pretty much solves the problem.

The only place you should be able to mix clan and IS freely is a solaris arena-type setting, where it's a free for all.

[SmoothCriminal]

AEgg, on 30 January 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Why does everyone think you'll be allowed to pick and choose clan or IS in the same match? That doesn't make any sense.

The only way I see clan tech being available is if one team is clan only and the other IS only for a new game mode. Find a player count that works (5v8, 8v12, whatever), and that pretty much solves the problem.

The only place you should be able to mix clan and IS freely is a solaris arena-type setting, where it's a free for all.

I understand that during the invasion this wouldnt make sense. But once it mixes i dont see the gap being that huge.

[Bhael Fire]

AEgg, on 30 January 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

The only way I see clan tech being available is if one team is clan only and the other IS only for a new game mode. Find a player count that works (5v8, 8v12, whatever), and that pretty much solves the problem.

Exactly. I'm really confused how anyone could be confused by this concept.

[Liberty]

I don't see many people thinking they can switch back and forth between Clan and IS although admittedly there is no info on how Clan is even going to be implemented. There are many that think they can use Clan tech in IS mechs which I don't think is going to happen or at least not at the start. Maybe a year or two after the Clan invasion it might be possible but of course everything at this point is speculation.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Well, I don't see the problem myself. PGI has already stated Clan won't be MC to get, it'll be open for the players just like the IS is. What they haven't stated is how'll they will deal with Clan vs IS issues, and I don't see why that's an issue to begin with.

Yes, Clan tech is quite OP compared to IS tech, so what, that's a given and it's expected, PGI can make it clear with little effort that Clan is indeed OP compared to IS so pick your faction accordingly. I'll wager you whatever you care to name that we'll still have more then enough people ready, willing and quite able to play the IS factions using only IS tech. I'm one of those people myself, don't let the Kerensky name fool you, I've played as IS in the NBT, and using nothing but IS tech we destroyed the Clans, not just a few little battles but actually removed them from the league totally destroyed. So much for the vaunted tech advantage, it's only as good as the people using it. And that wasn't even using Stars vs Lances, that was even numbers per team drops.

For MWO, it's simple, you want to be Clan, you be Clan, you get Clan Mechs and Tech and you abide by Clan rules, which means you drop in Stars not Lances, which means you'll always face the IS at a disadvantage in numbers, 5 vs 8 or 10 vs 12. PGI furthers this by giving greater rewards for going in with a lesser number of Mechs for the Clans. Taking a Star and 3 Points against 3 Lances of IS nets you more rewards then taking 2 Stars for example. Make that also work in regards to dropping against other Clans, as they do bid with each other and the Clans place great stock in using a smaller force to take out a greater force, this is the path to greatness and a Bloodname, the highest honor a Clan Mechwarrior can attain.

First off, Clan Tech itself, it's only usable on Clan Mechs, not usable with IS Mechs, at least not for a few more years, say...6 of them, because that's when IS scientists and techs get the 2 techs to work together, mostly sorta kinda So until then, you are IS you use IS Mechs and Tech, you are Clan you use Clan Mechs and Techs. Simple and easy to deal with, and it's totally canon and keeps the IS players from going all Clan and thereby removing that which makes the Clans the Clans when tech is all that's involved(cause lets face it, most of the Clan players are going to RP about as much as my shoe does and without that, the Clans are just the folks with the best guns). Now this can be modified a wee bit by allowing certain House units or Mercs working for those certain Houses access to Clan Salvage, it would be full Mechs with set equipment that can't be changed(no playing around with the config, you get what you get) because the IS has no ability to do that. This is where those Loyalty Points could come in handy, if your IS unit just HAS to have Clan toys. This could start taking place within the next year and then PGI could actually have some contest style giveaways after Tukayyid in 2 years, after ComStar ends up with so much Clan salvage.

Set it up so that you can decide to drop Clan vs Clan or Clan vs IS based on where on the map your Clan is based, and vice versa for the Inner Sphere factions. Keep in mind, the Invasion Corridor is actually rather narrow in which Houses it actually impacts, Steiner and Kurita being on the fronts line and FRR being..well..you get the point, position on the map gives you the possible opponents for a drop and you select which you want to face, IS or Clan. This will prevent the CoD kiddies who'll immediately go Clan due to the OPness of their tech from just going out and roflstomping pubbies(we all know that's a BIG attraction to many of the less mature members of the playerbase, griefing and pugstomping).

Buying a Clan Mech, something Clan Mechwarriors don't actually do, you accomplish by giving Kill Points instead of C-bills, and Clan Mechs are priced by KP. To further promote the Clan martial system and the values associated with it, base KP on the Class of the Mech, Light/Medium/Heavy/Assault and modify that based on the Class you are using to lower/raise the KP earned. That removes the money from the Clan side, which Clan Mechwarriors don't use, they just take what they want or accept what they are given depending on the situation and also gets the Clan players to be less prone to work as a team and to play more aggressively, as the Clans are wont to do, so they can get those KP for themselves, no Assist bonuses for the Clan side, as a matter of fact, give a reward for pure solo kills that recieved no damage from another friendly(the enemy damaging their own teammates shouldn't be counted in respect to this reward, none of YOUR teammates helped you and that's what matters to the Clans). This will further promote the Clan style of combat and move those players away from the team play aspect in order to make the most KP possible.

Then we IS players just let future history play itself out

*edit - clan/is tech crossover*

Edited by Kristov Kerensky, 30 January 2013 - 03:50 PM.

[Broceratops]

that second video isnt clan mechs. mw4 was like 3060+

also that guy was a terrible pilot. didn't even move

[AEgg]

SmoothCriminal, on 30 January 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

I understand that during the invasion this wouldnt make sense. But once it mixes i dont see the gap being that huge.

If the devs stick to the timeline, we have what, 10+ years before that's the case?

The basic idea is that there's no reason to place straight upgrades into an online game. It doesn't work. So the obvious solution is give each side it's own role.

[Bhael Fire]

Liberty, on 30 January 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

I don't see many people thinking they can switch back and forth between Clan and IS although admittedly there is no info on how Clan is even going to be implemented. There are many that think they can use Clan tech in IS mechs which I don't think is going to happen or at least not at the start. Maybe a year or two after the Clan invasion it might be possible but of course everything at this point is speculation.

Yeah, there's no way they'll let people use clan tech in IS teams. That makes no sense at all (at least during the invasions). If you have a clan mech selected when you jump into a match, you will be placed with other clanners.

[Broceratops]

AEgg, on 30 January 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

If the devs stick to the timeline, we have what, 10+ years before that's the case?

The basic idea is that there's no reason to place straight upgrades into an online game. It doesn't work. So the obvious solution is give each side it's own role.

the clans will have all the competitive min/max players, and also those wanting to pugstomp

the IS will have the roleplayers


this will actually work out for everyone, assuming the roleplayers are okay with playing the role of getting their *** kicked for over a year without anything resembling a victory

[LT Kinslayer]

Insert random answer into your post:

"As long as IS is able to fit clan tech, the only issue is forced hardpoint allocation This will probably not be persuasive enough for non clanners to give up their favorite IS mechs. They will be able to fit their favorite mechs with the best tech, but will never feel forced to run the Madcat abominations."



PS: Gief Shadowcat nao! It is so sexeh!

[Dirkdaring]

Clan LRM-20

5 tons
4 crit slots
No minimum range

Need I say more?

[NightFallsOnU]

AEgg, on 30 January 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

Why does everyone think you'll be allowed to pick and choose clan or IS in the same match? That doesn't make any sense.

The only way I see clan tech being available is if one team is clan only and the other IS only for a new game mode. Find a player count that works (5v8, 8v12, whatever), and that pretty much solves the problem.

The only place you should be able to mix clan and IS freely is a solaris arena-type setting, where it's a free for all.

well the 5 on 8 works but it cant be 8 on 12 it would have to be 10 on 12... Clans wouldn't field a half star

[Joseph Mallan]

Sadistic Savior, on 30 January 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

I thought they also would not engage 1 to 1 because of the honor thing...like it would be beneath them to consider an IS warrior equal to a Clan warrior 1 to 1. I expect the default ratio will be like 1.5 IS to 1 Clan.

Its why they often were known to challenge more than one opponent at a time. It was to "even the odds" more.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Broceratops, on 30 January 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

the clans will have all the competitive min/max players, and also those wanting to pugstomp

the IS will have the roleplayers


this will actually work out for everyone, assuming the roleplayers are okay with playing the role of getting their *** kicked for over a year without anything resembling a victory

As far as I can tell, a vast majority of the rp'ers are roleplaying as clanners, and they're almost all decended from that what-his-face Kerensky guy.

[McRoll]

Just one thing to consider about IS players outnumbering clanners. If the clan mechs are gonna be stronger than IS, no matter how you put it, people are gonna take the more powerful ones. That is just how most peoples brains work. They dont want to drive inferior hardware. Even if the chances to win on the IS side are better, clan mechs will still be taken more often.

I for example don't find it satisfying to win by using greater numbers and steamrolling my enemy. It is much more satisfying to win while being outnumbered. This is what clan mechs are about and they have more firepower thus feeling more satisfying to play. Any approach with this balancing strategy will fail.

Higher costs for clan mechs will bring absolutely zero good. No matter how more they will cost, people will get them and play only them. As a side effect you will have forums full of whines "omg its taking soooo long". Balancing via cost doesnt work, Eve Online is a prime example of that where it was intended that only a couple of supercapitals will be in game... well look how it has turned out.

The only viable strategy is to balance them gameplay wise. However I don't see how they want to accomplish that since clanners are supposed to be superior in every way. Either you will end up with some borked artificial restriction for them or they won't be better than IS mechs overall, which would be wrong lore wise.

I predict that this will fail one way or another.

[Davers]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

See heres the rub Bishop, I am buying into this game expecting the Clans to roll the Inner sphere for about 2 years. The Clans literally obliterated hundreds of commands. Mercilessly crushed everything in their path. Anything less and we will not be playing the Clan Invasion.

Isn't it a bit unrealistic to expect people to lose for 2 whole years? What would be the incentive to play if they really had little chance to win? Think how hard it would be to buy new mechs or earn gxp for modules if you got stomped every game.

While the lore is filled with examples of Clan smashing IS, every TT game I played has tried to balance the fights.