258 replies to this topic

[MechWarrior071507]

Davers, on 30 January 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

Who said Clan LL? Not I.


You said nothing was concrete so there could be no discussion. I said some things are known, so there can be speculation.

The premise of this troll poll is that clan tech will make IS obsolete.

Clan mechs have XL, FF, and Endo, with +1 to +2 damage on lasers, and +something range per type. But they lack normal Small, Medium, Large lasers, which is more heat efficient than ER lasers.

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 January 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

Uh, no BT TT knowledge I take it? XL, Endo and FF are very different things when you go from IS to Clan. IS XL engine, 3 crit slots on each torso side, which means losing your torso side, either one, is instant death. Clan XL engine, 2 crit slots on each torso side, so you can blow the side off a Clan Mech and all you'll do is annoy the driver. Endo IS is 14 slots, Clan are 7 slots each, otherwise they do function the same, FF IS is 14 slots while Clan is 7 otherwise the same...except..the Clan versions gain more tonnage AND use less crit space, 20% for Clan vs 12% for IS.

Weapons..oh yeah, no Clan Large Lasers, they only have ER or Pulse, they stopped using those silly normal lasers years ago. Better range, less heat, more damage, otherwise, yeah, just the same as IS..oh except..IS versions weigh more and produce more heat and have lower ranges..yeah..totally the same. PPCs..Clans don't use those, just the ERPPC, which weighs less, uses less space, has greater range, does more damage(15) but it DOES have the same heat as the IS ERPPC, so it's like totally the same! LRMs..less tonnage, less space required, less heat, and NO min range restriction! Gauss, same thing, less tonnage/space, less heat and no min range restrictions(none on IS gauss so not a big deal there). Yeah, pick a Clan piece of equipment and it's better then any IS piece, it'll weigh less, use less space, have greater range, do more damage and produce less heat, pick whichever is appropiate.

Engine weights and armor amounts are the the only things that don't change between IS and Clan. Really, that's about the only things that are the same, even their neurohelmets are more advanced, weigh less and are less bulky. They also cured cancer and various other ailments that still exist in the IS...not bsing you there, it's part of the BTech lore.

IS Mechs don't use weapon pods by the way, Omnis are a Clan exclusive thing for another 6 years, and mixing IS and Clan tech is something that doesn't happen for another 6 years either(and that's being REAL nice, it's technically 10 years).

As for who wouldn't want to use that Clan tech..me and quite a few others, we have no problems using IS tech and Mechs to defeat Clan tech and Mechs, we've done it before in previous MW titles in leagues like NBT which restricted what tech and Mechs you could use based on your faction. It's not the tech that makes you good, it's skill, doesn't matter if your erppc will go 2x as far and do half again as much damage if you can't HIT the target. Oh, another thing the Clans have that the IS doesn't have, Targeting Computers. The IS doesn't those for another 12 years btw. Not sure if they'll include those or not, but it would be interesting, to say the least..no, they don't do what you think either, http://www.sarna.net...geting_Computer

This guys is wrong. You can look at ER large lasers on Sarna and see that.

[Davers]

Khorek, on 30 January 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

The premise of this troll poll is that clan tech will make IS obsolete.

Clan mechs have XL, FF, and Endo, with +1 to +2 damage on lasers, and +something range per type. But they lack normal Small, Medium, Large lasers, which is more heat efficient than ER lasers.



This guys is wrong. You can look at ER large lasers on Sarna and see that.

See what? That Clan ER Large Lasers are better than IS?

Same heat, 2 more damage, More range, less tonnage, less critical slots.

I think he said that. (in general if not specific terms)

[Khanahar]

Puretech is a necessity. Monetization of Clantech is a necessity. Making Clantech available for all players who want to play as Clans is a necessity.

Mixed tech is game-breaking and uncanonical (at this time period).

For one proposal based on these principles, check out the thread linked in my sig #ShamelessPlug

[Phades]

Here is my take on it and it is more or less a valid parity.

Currently we have folks complaining about pre-made groups, poorly setup trial mechs, game mechanic bias that isn't easily overcome without customization, removal of some mechanics since beta, some mechanics not existing yet that were used in the represented era, missing weapon systems (that favor IS), and place holder mechanics that lead people to worry about the implementation of clan technology in general and cause pause towards if it would be healthy to introduce it into the game as a whole.

But, if you really take a step back and evaluate what clan technology really represents, all it really represents (excluding chassis like the loki); they are simply streamlined builds compared to the IS equivalents with more veteran pilots on average using them. What this means, when placed within the current state of the game, is that it would be no different than throwing relatively new players within the game against closed beta players with the newer players using only trial mechs while the vets use their custom chassis finely tuned to compliment each other. The results of such matches will be easy to predict 999 times out of 1,000. The difference being, is that it is an escalation of a situation which already exists within the game and will only serve to compound it down the road.

Right now, the priorities within where the development focus should be is very far away from worrying about trying to implement the clans anytime soon. In all honesty, I would be pleasantly surprised if the game was in a state where it was complete in terms of content, stability, and base mechics wise before introducing something volatile within the game such as the clans before next year rolls around. This goes beyond other questions like, "why should the IS be forced, mechanics wise (lack of melee, mines, combined arms, etc), to fight like the clans and lose the majority of their inherent advantages?" and "what will the player experience be like when playing in a clan machine versus a IS machine in terms of EI, absence of C3 and the questionable effect of ECM (technically all IS mechs already have C3 partially implemented in addition to a targeting computer for free) in response to this?". All of those style of questions take priority over the shiny new stuff importance in addition to the when and how those style of engagements "should" occur.

I'm not against the clans getting introduced eventually, but it just feels like there is oceans (depth and vastness) of other things that need to be fixed, implemented, or adjusted/re-invented before they should even be worried about at the present.

[Bhael Fire]

Davers, on 30 January 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

Well, that's the question isn't it?

Some people seem to be of the mind that it should be a huge advantage, to the point that even winning one match out of a night would be a heroic effort, the rest being complete steamrolls because that was canon.

Some people think that everyone will have the same access to the tech, and perhaps the mechs themselves, so there would be no difference.

I am hoping that they will have a way of balancing them vs IS so they will just be equal, but different. Kind of like the 'high tech' Protoss vs Terrans in Starcraft.

We will just have to wait and see.

If I had to guess, I'd wager that it'll go down like this:

1. Players will be able to select an Inner Sphere faction AND a clan faction.
2. Both IS and clan mechs will be available for purchase by all players.
3. Clan mechs, weapons and equipment will be purchased with "Honor" points (instead of c-bills) as well as MC
4. Clan tech will NOT be compatible with Inner Sphere mech chassis. That is, you will not be able to fit your CPLT-A1 with 6 SSRM/6s (even if the weight/crit slots allow for it).
5. When you select a clan mech to launch a match, you will be teamed up with other clan mechs against IS mechs. My guess is it will be 1 star vs two or three lances (i.e., 5 vs 8 OR 5 vs 12).
6. When you win a match while playing with a clan mech, you will gain Honor points instead of c-bills...as well as XP.

Honestly, I can't really see any other way working out...unless they decide to not let players play as clans (making the AI controlled in cooperative play...which is highly unlikely).

[Budor]

However they do it the shitstorm will be epic.

[Zolaz]

Let me put my psychic hat on and predict the future. When Clan tech comes out there will be a hue and cry on the forums. There will be some good pilots with C-Bills stacked away who will be crushing it on the field. There will be some bad pilots who get sent home with a quickness and begin crying and gnashing their teeth at the unfairness.

The game will continue on. There will be some balancing on the part of PGI. Then there will be something else for the ********* nation to QQ about.

Edited by Zolaz, 30 January 2013 - 06:34 PM.

[Phades]

Eh. Not sure what you are going on about, but 2 sides of equal skill will be decided by their load outs, which occurs before anything happens on the map. I do want to highlight one specific thing below first, since you don't seem to realize it yet.

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 January 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

Oh, another thing the Clans have that the IS doesn't have, Targeting Computers. The IS doesn't those for another 12 years btw. Not sure if they'll include those or not, but it would be interesting, to say the least..no, they don't do what you think either, http://www.sarna.net...geting_Computer

Umm, in case you haven't figured it out, but we effectively have both C3 and targeting computers built into all mechs for free already. This is why you can see on a paper doll where sections have been damaged which helps you target them specifically for more efficient kills or have the area around a targeted mech highlighted in red which makes for easier approximations of where the machine actually is within the space available when visibility conditions are poor, thus improving accuracy. Furthermore, you get to share this data with your entire team enabling folks, even those without line of sight, to see where things are on the map and in their hud.

Things of this nature are what drive enough people to wonder what many folks on the forums are going on and on about in regard to the state of the game or the overall vision it should take on over time. I'm in the camp holding out hope that most of what currently exists are just placeholder mechanics that will be adjusted or removed down the road when the core mechanics of the game get fully translated and implemented.

[Bhael Fire]

Zolaz, on 30 January 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

Let me put my psychic hat on and predict the future. When Clan tech comes out there will be a hue and cry on the forums. There will be some good pilots with C-Bills stacked away who will be crushing it on the field. There will be some bad pilots who get sent home with a quickness and begin crying and gnashing their teeth at the unfairness.

I'm fairly certain Clan mechs will not be available for purchase with c-bills. Players will have to earn Honor points (or some such measure of worth in the warrior caste) in order to obtain clan mechs, weapons, and equipment.

Also when a player selects a clan mech to enter a match, they will be teamed up as a point in a 5 player "star." They will be outnumbered by IS mechs...so playing field will be quite level...I assure you.

So...there will be QQ and gnashing of teeth on both sides, IS and clan. In other words...business as usual in MWO.

[Dock Steward]

My crystal ball says the Devs will implement CW and let IS beat on IS for a few years, fighting over regions of space. Sporadically there will be raids against particular areas by AI Clanners. Eventually (2-3 years, though canonically incorrect) IS will be allowed mixed tech. Once mixed tech is fully implemented the Clans will become playable factions. Also, the 49ers will win the Super Bowl.

[Solis Obscuri]

TBH, there are plenty of CBT fans who've been arguing over the influence of Clan technology on game balance since 1990... Why would you expect it to stop now?

[New Breed]

What if they bring back repairs just for clan mechs?

[Davers]

Phades, on 30 January 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

Here is my take on it and it is more or less a valid parity. Currently we have folks complaining about pre-made groups, poorly setup trial mechs, game mechanic bias that isn't easily overcome without customization, removal of some mechanics since beta, some mechanics not existing yet that were used in the represented era, missing weapon systems (that favor IS), and place holder mechanics that lead people to worry about the implementation of clan technology in general and cause pause towards if it would be healthy to introduce it into the game as a whole. But, if you really take a step back and evaluate what clan technology really represents, all it really represents (excluding chassis like the loki); they are simply streamlined builds compared to the IS equivalents with more veteran pilots on average using them. What this means, when placed within the current state of the game, is that it would be no different than throwing relatively new players within the game against closed beta players with the newer players using only trial mechs while the vets use their custom chassis finely tuned to compliment each other. The results of such matches will be easy to predict 999 times out of 1,000. The difference being, is that it is an escalation of a situation which already exists within the game and will only serve to compound it down the road. Right now, the priorities within where the development focus should be is very far away from worrying about trying to implement the clans anytime soon. In all honesty, I would be pleasantly surprised if the game was in a state where it was complete in terms of content, stability, and base mechics wise before introducing something volatile within the game such as the clans before next year rolls around. This goes beyond other questions like, "why should the IS be forced, mechanics wise (lack of melee, mines, combined arms, etc), to fight like the clans and lose the majority of their inherent advantages?" and "what will the player experience be like when playing in a clan machine versus a IS machine in terms of EI, absence of C3 and the questionable effect of ECM (technically all IS mechs already have C3 partially implemented in addition to a targeting computer for free) in response to this?". All of those style of questions take priority over the shiny new stuff importance in addition to the when and how those style of engagements "should" occur. I'm not against the clans getting introduced eventually, but it just feels like there is oceans (depth and vastness) of other things that need to be fixed, implemented, or adjusted/re-invented before they should even be worried about at the present.

You are right, the closest thing we have to the Clan Invasion would be customized mechs vs Trial mechs. That some people would say that should be the case for 2 years is kinda mind boggling since most people complain that even 25 matches is too long to stand it.

[Imperius]

I'm only playing this game for the mad cat or the timber wolf.

[Hotthedd]

PGI has already given us the balancing mechanic: Pilot skill trees.

It takes 3 variants of a 'mech to unlock elite, master, and double basic 'mech pilot skills.

(Clan omnimechs have no variants - just alternate configurations)

Therefore Clan 'mechs will never have the heat tweaks, speed tweaks, aim tweaks, or extra modules that IS 'mechs get.

If you allow mixtech, then the chassis will be roughly balanced.

Simple.

[Stingz]

Davers, on 30 January 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

You are right, the closest thing we have to the Clan Invasion would be customized mechs vs Trial mechs. That some people would say that should be the case for 2 years is kinda mind boggling since most people complain that even 25 matches is too long to stand it.

OmniMechs have many configs, and are built for quick and easy changes to pod components. An OmniMech with a custom weapons loadout is much more likely than a custom IS battlemech.

Edited by Stingz, 30 January 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[Bounty Dogg]

Kristov Kerensky, on 30 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Well, I don't see the problem myself. PGI has already stated Clan won't be MC to get, it'll be open for the players just like the IS is. What they haven't stated is how'll they will deal with Clan vs IS issues, and I don't see why that's an issue to begin with.

Yes, Clan tech is quite OP compared to IS tech, so what, that's a given and it's expected, PGI can make it clear with little effort that Clan is indeed OP compared to IS so pick your faction accordingly. I'll wager you whatever you care to name that we'll still have more then enough people ready, willing and quite able to play the IS factions using only IS tech. I'm one of those people myself, don't let the Kerensky name fool you, I've played as IS in the NBT, and using nothing but IS tech we destroyed the Clans, not just a few little battles but actually removed them from the league totally destroyed. So much for the vaunted tech advantage, it's only as good as the people using it. And that wasn't even using Stars vs Lances, that was even numbers per team drops.

For MWO, it's simple, you want to be Clan, you be Clan, you get Clan Mechs and Tech and you abide by Clan rules, which means you drop in Stars not Lances, which means you'll always face the IS at a disadvantage in numbers, 5 vs 8 or 10 vs 12. PGI furthers this by giving greater rewards for going in with a lesser number of Mechs for the Clans. Taking a Star and 3 Points against 3 Lances of IS nets you more rewards then taking 2 Stars for example. Make that also work in regards to dropping against other Clans, as they do bid with each other and the Clans place great stock in using a smaller force to take out a greater force, this is the path to greatness and a Bloodname, the highest honor a Clan Mechwarrior can attain.

First off, Clan Tech itself, it's only usable on Clan Mechs, not usable with IS Mechs, at least not for a few more years, say...6 of them, because that's when IS scientists and techs get the 2 techs to work together, mostly sorta kinda So until then, you are IS you use IS Mechs and Tech, you are Clan you use Clan Mechs and Techs. Simple and easy to deal with, and it's totally canon and keeps the IS players from going all Clan and thereby removing that which makes the Clans the Clans when tech is all that's involved(cause lets face it, most of the Clan players are going to RP about as much as my shoe does and without that, the Clans are just the folks with the best guns). Now this can be modified a wee bit by allowing certain House units or Mercs working for those certain Houses access to Clan Salvage, it would be full Mechs with set equipment that can't be changed(no playing around with the config, you get what you get) because the IS has no ability to do that. This is where those Loyalty Points could come in handy, if your IS unit just HAS to have Clan toys. This could start taking place within the next year and then PGI could actually have some contest style giveaways after Tukayyid in 2 years, after ComStar ends up with so much Clan salvage.

Set it up so that you can decide to drop Clan vs Clan or Clan vs IS based on where on the map your Clan is based, and vice versa for the Inner Sphere factions. Keep in mind, the Invasion Corridor is actually rather narrow in which Houses it actually impacts, Steiner and Kurita being on the fronts line and FRR being..well..you get the point, position on the map gives you the possible opponents for a drop and you select which you want to face, IS or Clan. This will prevent the CoD kiddies who'll immediately go Clan due to the OPness of their tech from just going out and roflstomping pubbies(we all know that's a BIG attraction to many of the less mature members of the playerbase, griefing and pugstomping).

Buying a Clan Mech, something Clan Mechwarriors don't actually do, you accomplish by giving Kill Points instead of C-bills, and Clan Mechs are priced by KP. To further promote the Clan martial system and the values associated with it, base KP on the Class of the Mech, Light/Medium/Heavy/Assault and modify that based on the Class you are using to lower/raise the KP earned. That removes the money from the Clan side, which Clan Mechwarriors don't use, they just take what they want or accept what they are given depending on the situation and also gets the Clan players to be less prone to work as a team and to play more aggressively, as the Clans are wont to do, so they can get those KP for themselves, no Assist bonuses for the Clan side, as a matter of fact, give a reward for pure solo kills that recieved no damage from another friendly(the enemy damaging their own teammates shouldn't be counted in respect to this reward, none of YOUR teammates helped you and that's what matters to the Clans). This will further promote the Clan style of combat and move those players away from the team play aspect in order to make the most KP possible.

Then we IS players just let future history play itself out

*edit - clan/is tech crossover*

Instead of KP (kill points), how about the Honour System? Something I thought about a bit ago:

Quote

You know what? I say 'give them Clantech'...but with a caveat......introduce the Honour system. Make it so that at the beginning of a campaign on the Clan side, they make their bids:

Lowest bid is 1v1
Clans cannot assist other clanmates with anything smaller than an assault class 'Mech
Scouts CAN assist with spotting as normal, but receive reduced xp for it

and the Big one:
Any dishonourable action (going against your bid) will result in a LOSS of xp

you heard right.

Not losing the xp you couldve gained from the fight, but LOSING ACTUAL XP YOU HAVE SO FAR ACCUMULATED. A Clanner could in theory delevel himself with too many dishonourable actions. This would ensure that:

1) Clanners would bid realistically, and stick to their bids, ensuring honor for the Clans
2) Ensure that there won't be TOO many Clanners, depopulating the IS side of the conflict

Then...Make DAMNED sure that clantech (when it becomes available to the IS) is DAMNED expensive!

There...thats a start

Edited by Bounty Dogg, 30 January 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[Malora Sidewinder]

honestly it will cause massive QQ, but that doesn't mean that it's broken.
it just means most people on the forums are idiots, which is completely true.

[Stingz]

Bounty Dogg, on 30 January 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

Instead of KP (kill points), how about the Honour System?

Already done for you: Zellbrigen

The Invading Clans eventually drop it, but during the initial invasion they used it.

[Merky Merc]

Obviously they will implement such things along with a planned time warp. TO THE FUTURE.

Yes Clan tech will be introduced with IS omnimechs mounting RAC5s everywhere, IS ER Energy weapons, and MRM40s.

We will take part in Operation Bulldog, with RP clanners able to play out their dreams of honor filled duels while IS players vaporize them with orbital bombardments. Then that will end and we can go back to community and civil warfare with all the technology available for everybody.

You heard it here first.

Edited by Merky Merc, 30 January 2013 - 07:21 PM.