284 replies to this topic

[Kylere]

I feel that starting posts to nerf the last mech to own you is pointless.

[apostateCourier]

Goldsan, on 02 February 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:

I have an SRM cat in addition to a k2 and c1

-jump jets are trash anyway, but you could push them in there if you want
-Not that big of a deal when you're going faster than most mediums
-I load 8 tons of ammo with an AMS + 1 ton of ammo with full armor and an XL 300 (I also have some tonnage leftover)
-1.5 is not exactly attrocious
-The catapults profile is extremely forgiving for XL use
-You can keep 4 tons of ammo in your legs without problem, you basically also get cockpit and chest ammo without risk simply because of how fast you blow through it (it gets drawn from your head and cockpit first)
-Yes
-Hard but far from impossible

I'd like to state real quick that 74 km/h isn't faster than most (non-trial) mediums that are fit competently.

Edited by apostateCourier, 02 February 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[Goldsan]

apostateCourier, on 02 February 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

I'd like to state real quick that 71 km/h isn't faster than most (non-trial) mediums that are fit competently.

The vast majority of mediums I see are not fit competently. Thus, *most* mediums.

But, assuming you have elites you will be going 82kph, compared to a hunchback, likely going 81 without speed tweak, 89 with*.

Edited by Goldsan, 02 February 2013 - 06:28 AM.

[Wriath]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_Carrier
I think this shows that there's a lore precedent for the srm6-apult.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Demolisher
Aaaand the dual ac-20 k2.
These builds are powerful and effective, already exist (in other forms) lore-wise, and fit within the rules of the game, there's no reason they shouldn't be used. If your team doesn't kill this kind of stuff at range when they first see it they deserve to be torn apart by them.
Edit: as a note, I don't drive either of those, mostly my dragon, centurion, and jenner, so don't assume my defending them is through a bias towards wanting to keep my crap machine.

Edited by Wriath, 02 February 2013 - 06:46 AM.

[Goldsan]

Wriath, on 02 February 2013 - 06:40 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/SRM_Carrier
I think this shows that there's a lore precedent for the srm6-apult.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Demolisher
Aaaand the dual ac-20 k2.
These builds are powerful and effective, already exist (in other forms) lore-wise, and fit within the rules of the game, there's no reason they shouldn't be used. If your team doesn't kill this kind of stuff at range when they first see it they deserve to be torn apart by them.

Neither of those are catapults. If you're saying we should balance on lore, that's fine. Show a *catapult* that has done that in lore, then. You could justify anything if you do what you're doing.

Also, the demolisher is 15 tons heavier than the catapult and the SRM carrier goes almost half as fast as an SRM cat.

[PhoenixFire55]

SRM cats and AC20 cats are only dangerous up close. For example if they are 800-900m away from you on open terrain you can pretty much destroy them with ERLL's, LL's, LRM's, PPC's, ERPPC's before they can get close enough to do some damage. Problem is we don't really have open maps in the game, even on Caustic smart people always hug crater or other rocks. There are other builds, much more exploiting if you ask me, that can one shot any mech, like 6 PPC Stalker.

I do believe that PGI at some point promised to nerf the ability to 'boat' weapons. Hope it happens soon so we don't see rather stupid 6 SSRM, 6 SRM, 6 PPC etc. builds. But anyhow, if we ever see clan omni-mechs in game everybody will see just how ineffective these now seemingly OP builds are under most conditions. TBH I'd rather face an AC20 Cat up close then a MadCat Mk.II with 2 Gauss and 2 PPCs at any distance ...

[MasterBLB]

PGI and Piranha,whatever to say about ECM failure,made overall a great work in design.
None of any existing builds is unbeatable,each have some weaknesses which can be used against them,as well as their drivers can learn to overcome them to gain advantage.

Is there a boomcat/hexasrmcat hiding in urban enviroment for example?Don't be morons and don't try to fight them there,instead go to the open space and wait for them to leave hideout.And to force them to do so,some most damaged teammate may go to capture enemy base.Or some guy with jets can go on top of a building and start to harass them.

Serously,people,is that hard to get it?A pilot's brain,experience and knowledge about pros and cons of a build is the most dangerous weapon,not a mech loadout.
But in these times there are so many no-brainers whose expect a reckless charge against anything should work,and as they refuse to think a bit they complain on forum instead...sad times.

Edited by MasterBLB, 02 February 2013 - 07:38 AM.

[Wriath]

Yeah I'm not saying that those vehicles are the same as this catapult, I'm saying that there are lore precedents for designs like these. Furthermore, all the people describing tactics to defeat these 'overpowered' builds are right, it really is a simple matter of adjust your strategy... or keep getting blown up.

[Mechwarrior835815]

Are you overlooking the fact that SRM6 Catapults have to be within 200m to 100m close to you to do effective damage? It is your own damn fault if you die to someone piloting this and don't have the mental capacity to know to shoot the ears off. Bad players will always complain.

[Goldsan]

Wriath, on 02 February 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

Yeah I'm not saying that those vehicles are the same as this catapult, I'm saying that there are lore precedents for designs like these. Furthermore, all the people describing tactics to defeat these 'overpowered' builds are right, it really is a simple matter of adjust your strategy... or keep getting blown up.

Except none of them are on catapults. So, no, there is no lore precedent. At all. It's like saying that catapults should be able to use XL400s when some random other mech in the universe can use it. You're completely throwing away balance for half kinda lore.

The problem isn't that cheesepults are perfect mechs in every situation, it's that they're far more effective than anything else at what they do. If you nerf the weapons they use, or if the meta changes, you can bet that another cheese catapult will take it's place. It happened with the SSRMs, it happened to a lesser extent to gauss.

If you nerf SRMs, then something else will get cheesed. Or heck, maybe nothing will get cheesed. Catapults in non cheese are good too.

For every fit or strategy you bring to counter something, there's another fit that counters you or another strategy that counters yours. That's balance. The problem is that catapults in general are the clear choice to use for these strategies.

When was the last time you saw anybody complaining about cataphracts? Nobody has complained about dragons since collision.

Catapults are the best heavy mech. That's all there is to it.

[Stringburka]

Craftyman, on 02 February 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

Absolute BS and anecdotal "evidence". The AC/20 cat and SRM6 cats are BROKEN beyond all belief and I will be riding this OP train until they are nerfed.

Anecdotal evidence is ********! My counter is... no evidence!

[apostateCourier]

Craftyman, on 02 February 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

Absolute BS and anecdotal "evidence". The AC/20 cat and SRM6 cats are BROKEN beyond all belief and I will be riding this OP train until they are nerfed.

So, you're just going to ignore the bits about trade-offs and maximum ranges, and limited ammunition stores?

Okay, how 'bout some raw proof? This is the fastest AC/20 K2 you can make (while having more than 7 shots):
http://mechromancer....7D0,7D0,1,0,1,0

Fourteen shots with each gun. Don't miss! :V

[UnseenFury]

Helmstif, on 01 February 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Thanks to your extremely constructive sarcasm, though I'd like to see you counter a 2-alpha kill enemy at point-blank range. I could duel an Atlas, with some effort, with my 7xSL HBK4P - hell, a skillful pilot could do that with a Jenner. Can I kill a hexa-SRM6 Cat with that? Short answer no, long answer F**K NO.

The only counter to these troll builds is a flock of ECM Raven. Unfortunately the matchmaking is mostly tonnage balanced.

Idiots that think all fights should be inside 10 meters are always amaze me. Although what do I want with how small the maps are and how idiotic the players.

[Hex Pallett]

MasterBLB, on 02 February 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Is there a boomcat/hexasrmcat hiding in urban enviroment for example?Don't be morons and don't try to fight them there,instead go to the open space and wait for them to leave hideout.And to force them to do so,some most damaged teammate may go to capture enemy base.Or some guy with jets can go on top of a building and start to harass them.

Um, it's kinda hard to single out a specific 'Mech in a chaotic match. Plus if the Cat pilot knows what he's doing, he would hide himself in cover, stay with a pack and NEVER go out. So? You wanna send a light 'Mech to a urban deathtrap?

Paran01ac, on 02 February 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

Idiots that think all fights should be inside 10 meters are always amaze me. Although what do I want with how small the maps are and how idiotic the players.

THANK YOU to your even more extremely constructive sarcasm, as well as touchingly concerning the knowledge of the general public.

But, dare my humbled mind to differ, more than half of the combats DO happen well within the combat range of a Exploitpult. I can't even remember last time being killed by LRM.

[MasterBLB]

Helmstif, on 02 February 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Um, it's kinda hard to single out a specific 'Mech in a chaotic match. Plus if the Cat pilot knows what he's doing, he would hide himself in cover, stay with a pack and NEVER go out. So? You wanna send a light 'Mech to a urban deathtrap?

Thay's the way to become a competetive pilot,to be able to realise flow of the battle - "Show Target Overlay" is your friend^^.You pressed it and see that a mech is Cat K2?Target it and wait for info instead blindly charge at it.

The 2nd part is what I said before,boom/srm cats pilots have their own worries to deal with too.Experienced pilots know their limitations and how to minimise them - which confirms it's experience,knowlege and ability to think in and read the battle is what makes a player dangerous,not mech he/she drives on.

And for the last,remember freeborn rookies the next time you'll be killed by <put anything "overpowered" there> ask yourself "Could I do something better than I did and not be killed?And what could it be?" instead of whinning.This way you'll focus on what really makes a pilot dangerous fighter - increasing experience and knowledge about the game.

Edited by MasterBLB, 02 February 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Merrik Starchaser]

Finding Min Max builds is a Huge part of the fun in the game. My 2xPPC 2xML 2xSRM6 cat is just as nasty as my 2x AC/20 cat but no one ever complains because it is not "Cheesy". For whatever reason some people decided boating is somehow inherently bad.

Let talk about role warfare for a moment. The AC/20 cat and A1 Boomcat are brawlers, one is slow the other keeps its weapons in easy to destroy pods. If you see them coming they are no big threat.

News flash if you dont see my DDC coming, or my 4sp coming you are just as boned. especially since both have a higher DPS than the 20 cat

[Loc Nar]

Are you people really having this big of trouble with Catapults? o_O I don't drive one, but I really don't see the big deal. 2-4 man 3L teams start making it feel like StreakcatWarriorOnline all over again, but I don't see the OPness of Cats. They don't scare me on the battlefield since falling victim to them generally requires major piloting blunders to give them the chance to do anything. The faster my mech is, the juicier those stupid ears look.

Rather than engage in 'nuh uh, yuh huh' mode, I offer this bit of advice. Pull some cats up in smurfys, and see what kind of compromises are needed to make your most feared/hated builds, and you will then know the formula for their destruction. If want to further your intimate knowledge of their weaknesses, pilot one yourself and see how pilots with skill deal with it and take notes.

[Kabum]

I have a 6srm cat and used in the past a 2x ca/20 cat. My expirience goes this far:
2x20 ca/20 cat. you few amunition, shoot on target with acurancy when your looking forwand, and you need to put the 2 hits on the same body area, which unless the other player stays still and you too is more complicated than that. You will get a lot of atention and probably will have many mechs dancing around you with few possibilities to destroy them.
Over the paper can look great in practic in my opinion, no. I do a lot more damage and kills with more compensated mechs.

the 6xSRM6 is fun to play, but the shoot is wide and open, unless you can point blank shoot. Even then you hit several areas at the same time. After the first shoot, everybody is aiming your arms, which are huge and easy to blow up. You only have 270m of range... it really sucks sometimes while LRM and even medium lasers are hitting you and you can do nothing else as take cover. Again a full laser hunchback or even a more compensated cat can make you made more damage points and kills.

If you are a good player and have a good team any mech can be good. but you have to play with the mech style and rely on your team. If you´re a lone wolf... well good luck..BooMMM!

[Kharim]

Craftyman, on 02 February 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

they NEED sized hardpoint, you should not be able to put an AC/20 in machine gun mounts.

Please do not bring Mechwarrior 4 back to life... I think that current critical+hardpoint system is really lore-freindly and I wouldn't exchange it for anything else.

[Stringburka]

Now, things might be different for those in heavier 'mechs, but I, as a light pilot, don't get killed by Cat's that much. It happens, and when it does I usually feel frustrated because it's a one-shot bam you're dead from nowhere, but compared to the number of times I've been killed by Cravens, Awesome PPC's/Large Lasses, LRM's, newbish accidents of running face into an atlas that took a step I didn't expect et cetera it's not much.

And I think that might be part of the reason people feel like these builds are broken. Because when you die to them, you die without getting a chance. They're not brawlers as much as assassins - 65 ton assassins - that rely on stealth or confusion to get to you when you're at your weakest and BAM you're dead. One notices that, one remembers that. I can't remember every time a barrage of LRM's stripped me of armor and a random hunchie put some ML's through my CT, I remember going at full health and BAM I'm dead. Even if that's just one in fifty of my deaths.

I did see the Gauss kat as kind of an issue before, because it did about the same thing as the AC-20 kat but a kilometer away. And they where everywhere. The fact that streak and AC Cats aren't - at least not in my experience (I see one maybe every other game or so, compared to 1-3 cravens in every game) - indicates that they aren't as much beasts to run as they are to get killed by.

Kharim, on 02 February 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Please do not bring Mechwarrior 4 back to life... I think that current critical+hardpoint system is really lore-freindly and I wouldn't exchange it for anything else.

There might be middle ways, like just reducing number of crits in those spaces or make a certain "minicrit" that only works for 1 ton and less weapons. But I agree, it's better to balance the 'mechs so that you don't WANT to do that.