284 replies to this topic

[KKillian]

How come noone bitchs about my quad ppc k2? Oh how I enjoy one-shotting lights across the map. Teach those little boogers to stop movin!

Anyway in a military situation if an A1 6x6 was spotted in the field any team worth its salt would smoke it in seconds, LONG before it could get anywhere near fire range. This is speaking from experience, any premade sees me im focused meat. The thing is absolutely useless vs any type of organized team whatsoever. Vs a pug yea you can have a field day but, one cata, hell, even three catas, trying to rush or be sneaky is quite obvious. MATCHMAKEING, now thats the word of the day.

Know your enemy. -Sun Tzu

[NRP]

I guess I just can't bring myself to care much about the A1. If it shows up in a game, I try to deal with it as best I can, just like every other mech that can obliterate me.

If I were the complaining sort, I would rant a lot more about why lights are even allowed in the game. They are a whole order of magnitude larger problem for me personally. From my perspective (assault driver), they have all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of larger mechs. So if I were to draw a line in the sand and say "This is over the line!", my case would be against light mechs as a whole. But that's a ridiculous notion, so I just cuss at my monitor and let it go.

[Phoenix Gray]

NRP, on 04 February 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

I guess I just can't bring myself to care much about the A1. If it shows up in a game, I try to deal with it as best I can, just like every other mech that can obliterate me.

If I were the complaining sort, I would rant a lot more about why lights are even allowed in the game. They are a whole order of magnitude larger problem for me personally. From my perspective (assault driver), they have all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of larger mechs. So if I were to draw a line in the sand and say "This is over the line!", my case would be against light mechs as a whole. But that's a ridiculous notion, so I just cuss at my monitor and let it go.

Or, you could, I dunno... pilot a light? The logistics boys would thank you.

[Stringburka]

NRP, on 04 February 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

they have all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of larger mechs. So if I were to draw a line in the sand and say "This is over the line!", my case would be against light mechs as a whole. But that's a ridiculous notion, so I just cuss at my monitor and let it go.

As someone who's mainly light now, and just branching into heavies, the one main thing lights don't have is firepower, especially at range. Now that I've got a cataphract, if I can get behind an atlas, I can kill it in like 10 seconds tops.

When I'm in my raven, it's like... a full minute of shooting. Granted, it's easier to _stay_ behind, but you don't do that much good being there, especially against people who's put on at least basic armor.

And it's worse at range. A medium can at least be irritating at long range and quite dangerous at medium range, but a light? Won't happen. The heaviest thing you mount in a raven (one of the heaviest lights) will be something like a single AC-2 or two ER Large Lasers (and have heating problems) or a single PPC. Yes, you can scratch someone with it, but unless you're an amazing shot you won't be effective at long range. And if you are an amazing shot, you could just pick a medium or heavy and double (or more) the weapon load.

[NRP]

Lights with MLs and a seemingly infinite supply of streaks are a problem. The only option I have to effectively combat lights are streaks, but if I carry them I am at a disadvantage for my intended role (killing other assaults) and if the light has ECM streaks are totally useless.

So I do whatever I can to deal with them (leg them, timed alphas, chain fire lasers, back up while turning, back up to a wall, etc). None if it is very effective in reality, especially when I'm the last man standing and pretty beat up from wrecking your Atlases and Stalkers. So while it may take you a minute to dispatch me, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you will.

Bottom line is I get killed a lot more by lights than A1 "Splat Cats". And to be completely honest, I would rather face an SRM Cat than one or two lights with lasers and streaks, especially if they have ECM.

And no, I have no interest in piloting a light, just as I have no interest in piloting an A1.

[Stringburka]

NRP, on 04 February 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Lights with MLs and a seemingly infinite supply of streaks are a problem. The only option I have to effectively combat lights are streaks, but if I carry them I am at a disadvantage for my intended role (killing other assaults) and if the light has ECM streaks are totally useless.

It's always a matter of payoff - if you get something ideal for killing lights, it will likely not be ideal for killing heavies. However, SSRMS aren't the only thing I fear as a light pilot. LBX-10, Large Lasers and anything with a quick turn speed can be dangerous to me, not to talk about good teamwork. If there's at least two 'mechs there, and at they aren't facing the exact same direction, it's MUCH harder to do something.

If you and your pal are in two atlases and see an atlas and a cataphract standing back to back, you know you have a fairly good chance of winning. If I wand my pal are in two ravens and see the same opponents, we won't go near.

NRP, on 04 February 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

So I do whatever I can to deal with them (leg them, timed alphas, chain fire lasers, back up while turning, back up to a wall, etc). None if it is very effective in reality, especially when I'm the last man standing and pretty beat up from wrecking your Atlases and Stalkers. So while it may take you a minute to dispatch me, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you will.

Yeah, when someone is last man standing lights are excellent at picking them apart. That's why teamwork is so important. One on one I have a good chance against a slow assault (it should be noted that awesomes are very dangerous to me, as you note chain fired lasers can be quite killing), but two on two I'm quite useless because my only chance of killing an assault is standing and beating on it's back until it dies - if it has a pal that can rip me apart in two alphas, I can't do that, and I can hardly do anything good at all except TAGging.
If I was in an assault then, I might kill one of the opponents with some luck, or at least damage them decently.

And that's if I even get close to an assault, which can be hard on certain maps (part of forest colony, caustic valley). A gauss shot or three and I'm out. And I can't do mostly anything to defend myself except move around. Meanwhile, a heavy or assault can lay down suppressive fire that makes it much harder to aim, apart from of course being able to take a larger beating.

I'm not saying lights aren't good, I'm just saying that in my experience, there ARE severe drawbacks with them.

[Pan Damonium]

I guess I could edit video footage to make it look like my Toyota is over-powered...but like the video in the OP, it would be so cut up and put back together that it should never be used to help further any arguments about how it actually performs.

I think its funny that most of the opponents the Cat is going up against in the video are not targeted. That way, you can't see that most of them are damaged already...

[1453 R]

Lights have the severe drawback of weighing a third at best of what an assault does, with commensurate losses in armor, firepower, and equipment. An Atlas' arm can carry more equipment than a Commando. yes, the little buggers are fast as heck and hard to pin down. That's sort of the point, given that it's generally all the defense they've got.

With things like AC20s, Gauss rifles, PPC/large laser batteries, massed SRM fire...generally, all a D-DC has to do is get in one good lick and the poor light's out of commission. That's hard to do one on one...but if it comes down to a duel, them's just the breaks. 'Course, NRP admitted that them's the breaks, so I don't see what the big issue is. Except that somehow it relates to A1s being the Devil for using the only valid configuration left to them.

EDIT: Pan...no. First of all, Indoorsman put up a lengthy uncut sequence of him doling out doom and cookies to his enemies. Second of all, I don't target three quarters of the junk I put rounds in, either. It's in front of me, it has a red arrow, I shoot it. I don't feel as if waiting five seconds for a hard target lock will really benefit me and my team more than the salvo of fire I could put on the target while slashing by to keep chasing down that damn Jenner. Third of all...way to miss the point, man.

Edited by 1453 R, 04 February 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Von Claussen]

Stringburka, on 03 February 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Which is easier to neuter depends on your build. SRM cats can be faaaar quicker, since they're not forced to use a standard engine. An AC-20 Kat with 14 shots only, and reduced armor, will have a speed of 72 after speed tweak - and that's with about 40 leg armor, and no other weapons at all.
CPLT-K2

Lol, nice AC/20 cat with 14 shots. You should probably fix that.

Stringburka, on 03 February 2013 - 04:05 AM, said:

Meanwhile, a streak cat with 19 shots, maxed armor and two jump jets can have a speed of 86 after speed tweak. And as said, that's with maxed armor.
CPLT-A1

So I think for pinpoint accuracy shots, with UACs, PPC's, Gausses et cetera, the streak cat is easier to take down. For those with weapons that might not hit as exactly, like LRM's, SSRMs (if you're a light and try to outmaneuver it), large lasers and similar, the AC-20 will be easier to take down. The difference is extra large if your speed is 80-90 somewhere where you can outrun the AC-20 much easier than the streak.

I think you have the wrong type of SRM cat here. Streaks aren't a problem and haven't been a problem since ECM rolled into town.

[NRP]

To be clear, I'm not ragging on lights. I'm only saying that if I make a list of "problems" I face in game, SRM Cats won't be very high on that list.

[Warlune]

I don't mind these abusive builds, but when I see a premade running 3-4 of them at a time, it's a very abusive problem.

Personally, I'd like to see a 2 mech limit for each mech per team just for variety's sake.
Ex: Once two catapults are on one team, no more catapults can be on that team.

Seeing as we have 13 mechs and getting more every month, I don't see that being too much to ask

[Phoenix Gray]

1453 R, on 04 February 2013 - 11:21 AM, said:

Lights have the severe drawback of weighing a third at best of what an assault does, with commensurate losses in armor, firepower, and equipment. An Atlas' arm can carry more equipment than a Commando. yes, the little buggers are fast as heck and hard to pin down. That's sort of the point, given that it's generally all the defense they've got.

With things like AC20s, Gauss rifles, PPC/large laser batteries, massed SRM fire...generally, all a D-DC has to do is get in one good lick and the poor light's out of commission. That's hard to do one on one...but if it comes down to a duel, them's just the breaks. 'Course, NRP admitted that them's the breaks, so I don't see what the big issue is. Except that somehow it relates to A1s being the Devil for using the only valid configuration left to them.

EDIT: Pan...no. First of all, Indoorsman put up a lengthy uncut sequence of him doling out doom and cookies to his enemies. Second of all, I don't target three quarters of the junk I put rounds in, either. It's in front of me, it has a red arrow, I shoot it. I don't feel as if waiting five seconds for a hard target lock will really benefit me and my team more than the salvo of fire I could put on the target while slashing by to keep chasing down that damn Jenner. Third of all...way to miss the point, man.

You Atlas drivers should nag PGI to make it possible to physically CATCH lights (It's canon, the first tech manuals talked about Atlases picking up light mechs and throwing them down). Go long!

[Stringburka]

Von Claussen, on 04 February 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Lol, nice AC/20 cat with 14 shots. You should probably fix that.

With what, though? The speed and armor are both mediocre already.
I guess this is possible, but now it's down to 62/68 kph speed and vulnerable both side torsos and legs.

Von Claussen, on 04 February 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

I think you have the wrong type of SRM cat here. Streaks aren't a problem and haven't been a problem since ECM rolled into town.

No, I just accidently wrote streak cat. If you check the linked build it is SRM6s in it.

[Phoenix Gray]

NRP, on 04 February 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Lights with MLs and a seemingly infinite supply of streaks are a problem. The only option I have to effectively combat lights are streaks, but if I carry them I am at a disadvantage for my intended role (killing other assaults) and if the light has ECM streaks are totally useless.

So I do whatever I can to deal with them (leg them, timed alphas, chain fire lasers, back up while turning, back up to a wall, etc). None if it is very effective in reality, especially when I'm the last man standing and pretty beat up from wrecking your Atlases and Stalkers. So while it may take you a minute to dispatch me, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that you will.

Bottom line is I get killed a lot more by lights than A1 "Splat Cats". And to be completely honest, I would rather face an SRM Cat than one or two lights with lasers and streaks, especially if they have ECM.

And no, I have no interest in piloting a light, just as I have no interest in piloting an A1.

You might think about making a light or medium "mech buddy" to watch your back.

[Indoorsman]

Jakob Knight, on 04 February 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

I think the whole issue is without a leg to stand on.

The "issue" is balance, and w/o balance this game won't have a leg to stand on. If the A1 isn't OP then SRMs are... OR streaks/LRMs are way underpowered... OR ECM is OP. Something is out of balance right now, that's the issue. But it's beta so it's expected.

Darwins Dog, on 04 February 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

Just to throw my 2 cents in, the pilot in the video is pretty good actually. The person makes good use of jump jets, knows the maps, leads effectively, and has decent aim.

Also, is that pre JJ nerf? Because my spider 5V can't get that kind of lift at all.

Video was made this patch, 3/4 JJs.

Pan Damonium, on 04 February 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

I guess I could edit video footage to make it look like my Toyota is over-powered...but like the video in the OP, it would be so cut up and put back together that it should never be used to help further any arguments about how it actually performs.

I think its funny that most of the opponents the Cat is going up against in the video are not targeted. That way, you can't see that most of them are damaged already...

There is a 1v1 with a full HP cookie cutter brawler Atlas that is resolved in less than 30 seconds, and a lengthy uncut segment. I counted 3 targets prior to the uncut segment that I had not targeted/gathered info on before killing. Those targets got me 181, 200 and 175xp for the kills. The 200xp Spider I can tell you had not been damaged prior and I one shot, the other 2 I did a vast majority of the damage for such high xp.

[zraven7]

I've been stuck 1 on 1 vs a splat cat with my cicada a few times, and frankly, it's 50/50 as to who survives. He one'shots me, or I rip off his ears from behind. I don't see a problem, really.

Yes, Splat Cats are scary, but they are easy to neuter, too. Their primary weapons are literally boxes on the side of their head. They are arguably the easiest to hit target on a mech in the game. Building a Splatter is taking a gamble that someone won't get PPC happy with your ears before you get close. Or Autocannon-happy. Or Gauss-happy.

I hope your getting the point.

It's a build you can't walk up and box with. So, well, don't.

Edited by zraven7, 04 February 2013 - 01:11 PM.

[Indoorsman]

zraven7, on 04 February 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

I've been stuck 1 on 1 vs a splat cat with my cicada a few times, and frankly, it's 50/50 as to who survives. He one'shots me, or I rip off his ears from behind. I don't see a problem, really.

Yes, Splat Cats are scary, but they are easy to neuter, too. Their primary weapons are literally boxes on the side of their head. They are arguably the easiest to hit target on a mech in the game. Building a Splatter is taking a gamble that someone won't get PPC happy with your ears before you get close. Or Autocannon-happy. Or Gauss-happy.

I hope your getting the point.

The point is when playing a SRM6 cat you don't approach the enemy in the open. You stick to cover as much as possible and JJ around to throw peoples' aim off. You keep as many enemies out of LOS as possible while engaging your current target, which given a choice of targets you pick the more isolated. It's not-so-common sense that applies to any mech really. I'm sure people will learn the cover lesson better when PPCs have heat reduced

[Ravennus]

Indoorsman, on 04 February 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

It's not-so-common sense that applies to any mech really. I'm sure people will learn the cover lesson better when PPCs have heat reduced

Hehe.... I've got a few interesting PPC builds waiting in the wings in case this upcoming heat buff is indeed decent.
I'm sure other people have the same plan.

[NRP]

I actually think it's easier to hit enemies that jump jet around because they follow an easy-to-predict trajectory, and they tend to get clear of cover when doing so. When I'm running a PPC build or anything with an AC/20, I'm always on the lookout for this behavior. Cataphracts, Catapults, and Spiders tend to do it all the time.

As long as they're not right on top of you of course.

[Void Angel]

Helmstif, on 01 February 2013 - 11:56 PM, said:

Thanks to your extremely constructive sarcasm, though I'd like to see you counter a 2-alpha kill enemy at point-blank range. I could duel an Atlas, with some effort, with my 7xSL HBK4P - hell, a skillful pilot could do that with a Jenner. Can I kill a hexa-SRM6 Cat with that? Short answer no, long answer F**K NO. The only counter to these troll builds is a flock of ECM Raven. Unfortunately the matchmaking is mostly tonnage balanced.

Well, actually the matchmaking system is weight-class based - that's only secondarily a matter of tonnage. If it was based on tonnage, the matchups would be more varied - as it is, if you have a Cicada, you know it's going to be matched against another medium on the enemy team.

As far as your SL Hunchback... That's kind of a sub-par build. Sure, you can sustain the heat, but it's much lower dps and alpha strike damage compared to a medium laser. If you're going to boat (and with the 4P, you don't have a choice ) you should use medium lasers. I actually go back and forth a bit between medium lasers and TAG in the head slot for my 4P. Sure, you can't chain fire your armament, but you can get several torso volleys in before moving back into cover - and if you're not using cover with a hunchback, you're gonna get smoked.

An SRM cat, to deal with the primary example, is overpowered within its engagement envelope, but that same envelope's size, along with the placement of its armament in the arms (har, har) also limit its effectiveness. I certainly see the odd Splatcat running around, but the dual AC/20 or Gausscat builds seem more common.