284 replies to this topic

[El Death Smurf]

Darwins Dog, on 10 February 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

The point that was being made (I believe) is that a long range fire support mech doesn't need to have the widest torso twist arc in the game. That's the part that diesn't make sense. The Catapult can cover a wider arc than some mechs that have fully actuated arms. By comparison, the Stalker has the smallest torso twist in the game, and yet has no arm reach. This makes the stalker a much less effective brawler, and a lot better at ranged fire support.

wait... the stalker's beyond poor torso twist makes it " a lot better at ranged fire support" ?
better suited perhaps, but the catapults ability to make a wide arc at long ranges in order to keep its distance while it shoots its lrms BEFORE someone closes the distance and tears you appart is practically key. the annoyingly tiny torso's virtical movement is what distinguishes it as a less than perfect brawler as well as its big cockpit and center torso.

i propose that the large torso twist is approptiate to keep the catapult at range. i mean, have you seen those arms? they have more surface area than any other mech's, as well as most lights entire mech. (how funny would that be to see a C4 open its bays, and two commandos jump out!!)

[Bandokay]

haha gogo gadgetomando

[Aggressor666]

Helmstif, on 02 February 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Okay here we go. SRMpults would usually push along the pack and creep in urban area, then jumps out and slap all over your face. An A1 with 6x Artemis SRM6 could easily pack in a XL300, bring the tweaked speed up to 80+ km/h, which is PRETTY DAMN HARD TO OUTRUN.

lol he most likely has one and doesn't want his one button herp a durp mech taken away

[Darwins Dog]

El Death Smurf, on 10 February 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

wait... the stalker's beyond poor torso twist makes it " a lot better at ranged fire support" ?
better suited perhaps, but the catapults ability to make a wide arc at long ranges in order to keep its distance while it shoots its lrms BEFORE someone closes the distance and tears you appart is practically key. the annoyingly tiny torso's virtical movement is what distinguishes it as a less than perfect brawler as well as its big cockpit and center torso.

i propose that the large torso twist is approptiate to keep the catapult at range. i mean, have you seen those arms? they have more surface area than any other mech's, as well as most lights entire mech. (how funny would that be to see a C4 open its bays, and two commandos jump out!!)

You're right, what I should have said was that the Stalker is better suited to ranged support. What I meant was that the stalker is a lot better at ranged support than it is at brawling.

The catapult's arms have nothing to do with it. If its at distance, then a smaller twist arc is still enough to target any enemy. They won't be behind you when you are dropping LRMs from your spawn point. The only mechs that need a wide twist range are brawlers and harassers.

I'm not saying it should be as small as the stalker, but it does not need to be the best in the game.

[Willie Sauerland]

Wrenchfarm, on 03 February 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Words...

Picture...

More words...

Interesting part of mostly useless post:

Thankfully, there is an easy way to bring the A1 down to a balanced level without completely overhauling the mech or SRMs. Lower the max engine size to 260, limit torso twist to 900-100 degrees. Boom, done. It can't flank/pursue nearly as bad, it can't lol-track mechs in a brawl. IE, it actually has weaknesses.

You know what I find funny? Take a catapult's leg off and watch what it does...

People constantly complain about this or that being overpowered, but nobody tries to actually STOP the mech. By taking its leg off, it can torso twist all it wants but the only real movement it has is jumping - and if you can hit it outside 270 meters, then it is just as good as a sitting duck.

Even better - many of the A1's running around store ammo in the legs. It is almost like getting a twofer... (you know - two for the price of one )

No adjustments needed. Weakness has been found. Bad playing by those who got killed and didn't notice somebody was behind them (when there was no ECM coverage) or tries to brawl with them in their kill zone does not make a chassis overpowered no matter how hard you might try to make it so.

Carry on...

Disclaimer: I do not currently own a Catapult A1, though I am thinking about building one again just for the LOLs. As such, this cannot be claimed as my favorite ride no matter how much you might like to try and make that argument.

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 10 February 2013 - 09:46 AM.

[Ryebear]

Keep in mind it's "giant" center torso has roughly as much health as each leg, and those ears have 2/3rd of that.

If you arent packing long range weaponry, how many over-ranged medium laser volley's would that take to destroy?

Or better yet, when you are getting out of range of the SRMs (duh everyone who doesnt do this is an ***** who deserves some new thing that the internet will make up that is worse than torture), how many of your teammates dont or literally CANT outrun 85kph to get away (because they are idiots anyway).

Anyway, none of that is really the point, nerfing SRMs wont really solve the issue. The issue is 90% of the cheese builds are built on the Catapult chassis. Why not take an action to limit it, even slightly, why not drop its torso twist rates to bring them in line with other armless mechs (ignoring Stalker).

Frankly, the Cataphract had as extreme of a nerf (20 degrees arm movement) for cosmetic reasons which was met with less uproar.

[Willie Sauerland]

Ryebear, on 10 February 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Keep in mind it's "giant" center torso has roughly as much health as each leg, and those ears have 2/3rd of that.

If you arent packing long range weaponry, how many over-ranged medium laser volley's would that take to destroy?

Or better yet, when you are getting out of range of the SRMs (duh everyone who doesnt do this is an ***** who deserves some new thing that the internet will make up that is worse than torture), how many of your teammates dont or literally CANT outrun 85kph to get away (because they are idiots anyway).

Anyway, none of that is really the point, nerfing SRMs wont really solve the issue. The issue is 90% of the cheese builds are built on the Catapult chassis. Why not take an action to limit it, even slightly, why not drop its torso twist rates to bring them in line with other armless mechs (ignoring Stalker).

Frankly, the Cataphract had as extreme of a nerf (20 degrees arm movement) for cosmetic reasons which was met with less uproar.

It is possible your assumptions are faulty. As I recall, putting in the XL engine required as well as the SRM 6s required a weight reduction somewhere. Either you dropped the amount of ammo you were carrying (bad idea, really) or you drop the armor weight a bit. Since the legs are typically the last things to be hit, but you know your ears and CT stick out like a sore thumb, where are you going to reduce that armor weight?

As such, legs are more vulnerable to being taken out than ears or CT.

As for the other question about how many over-ranged medium laser hits it would take to knock out the legs, perhaps you are using the wrong equipment and should leave it to the sniper or long-range build running with you? The idea is, you neutralize the danger from a distance. I thought I had made that point already clear in previous posts but I don't mind spelling it out again.

If you are playing with idiots, there isn't much I can do for you.

As much as I hate using this Goon statement: Communication is key.

I feel dirty. I'm going to go take a shower now...

[Zordicron]

I skimmed this thread. It looks like it has come down to mostly a debate if the splatcat's are OP or fair.
IMO, they are not OP, but, they also do not fit in with the rest of the game. There are counters to them, but the counters are almost as specific and situational as the cat. build is.
I was in spectate mode, and watched my splatcat team mate 3 shot a stalker. After the first salvo, the stalker couldnt fire back effectively. This was of course in very close range as usual, but it still made me cringe a little that a mid-heavy mech could obliterate a fairly tough to destroy assault just by being in close range.

The other notable encounter was myself, in my speedy centurion. I came across a Cat. sitting at a ledge over the river in the river city map, it was a conquest, and fairly near one of the capture points. I was on my way to capture it when I came across the Cat. I thought it was a LRM fire support build, hence why it was out a ways from the fray on the ledge. so I snuck up behind it and started pegging it with my AC10 and med. lasers. I got 2 shots in, the second as it was turning towards me, I started to maneuver back to duck around behind a building, but wasnt quite fast enough I recall thinking. "Going to take some laser fire" went through my head.
And then I saw some missles, and then I was dead. One shot.

IMO, its just too much. its also a really hard thing to figure out how to sidestep as far as balance. The SRM arent OP themselves, the Cat. isnt either. And you cant just alter the hard points or you ruin the LRM fire support role it was meant for. A sticky wicket.

[Indoorsman]

Willie Sauerland, on 10 February 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

As for the other question about how many over-ranged medium laser hits it would take to knock out the legs, perhaps you are using the wrong equipment and should leave it to the sniper or long-range build running with you? The idea is, you neutralize the danger from a distance. I thought I had made that point already clear in previous posts but I don't mind spelling it out again.

You basically just said that the splat cat is the best brawler, which is true... but should it be so good that other brawler mechs run from it? I mean you just said that a guy shooting over-ranged medium lasers, if he doesn't have longer range weapons, should just run and let someone else take care of the splat cat. That means the guy is a brawler, and must run from the other brawler to defeat it according to you.

[Krellek]

I didn't bother reading any of the text walls leading up to the back page of this thread. I just wanted to let the OP know that he doesn't know what he is talking about. A little 'do it yourself' attitude and you could have figured this out on your own, but I will digress and let you in on a little secret:

AC/20 Catapults are extremely slow. Yes they tuck their AC's into the torso but all you need to do is kite / leg them. It doesn't take very long and I manage to kill dual AC/20's every round I see them in.

A1 Splatapults are a 2 shot, shotgun. If you don't grasp the concept that 50% of that mechs' damage are in each ear and that any light mech worth its salt can cleave one off, then I don't know if there is any helping you? BESIDES, stay out of the 270 range and you're fine. It's called a battle map and paying attention. Use them.

SOOOOO many people log in and come to these forums because they have yet to figure out how to deal with a problem on their own. This game isn't hard but it does take some thinking. If you can't think your way around one dimensional builds then you really shouldn't be playing this game. But don't waste this communities' time because you think you should be preforming better than you really are; it's not the game and the dev's affecting your game play, it's you and your lack of skill set.

Edited by Krellek, 10 February 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[Indoorsman]

Krellek, on 10 February 2013 - 12:00 PM, said:

A1 Splatapults are a 2 shot, shotgun. If you don't grasp the concept that 50% of that mechs' damage are in each ear and that any light mech worth its salt can cleave one off, then I don't know if there is any helping you?

What about splatapults worth their salt blowing the light mech up?

[Willie Sauerland]

Indoorsman, on 10 February 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

You basically just said that the splat cat is the best brawler, which is true... but should it be so good that other brawler mechs run from it? I mean you just said that a guy shooting over-ranged medium lasers, if he doesn't have longer range weapons, should just run and let someone else take care of the splat cat. That means the guy is a brawler, and must run from the other brawler to defeat it according to you.

I'm sure a Hunchback could easily kill an A1 if played intelligently (I don't own one but have in fact seen it myself several times). I've killed an A1 with a non-ecm Commando (2 ML and 2 SRM4). I have killed an A1 with a founder's Atlas. I have killed A1s with several Centurion variants up close and personal.

Since people are complaining the A1 is, like, so overpowered, I thought I would provide an easy strategy for others who can't figure out how to beat them which is to take them at a distance. I did not realize this would prove to be difficult as well for the skillfully challenged. My apologies.

Indoorsman, on 10 February 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

What about splatapults worth their salt blowing the light mech up?

Then I would submit for consideration the light pilot isn't that good...

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 10 February 2013 - 12:09 PM.

[Indoorsman]

Willie Sauerland, on 10 February 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Then I would submit for consideration the light pilot isn't that good...

It goes both ways you know,

[Willie Sauerland]

Indoorsman, on 10 February 2013 - 12:11 PM, said:

It goes both ways you know,

Yup. We all have our good days and our bad. There are times I can absolutely kick ***, and then there are the days where I can't stop anybody from kicking mine.

But when I get beat, I don't go crying about how overpowered something is but try to analyze and learn from it. Everything has a weakness. It only has to be found and exploited.

[Stringburka]

As I've said before, I haven't had huge personal issues with splatcats (I run a raven and a cicada and yeah, I get killed by them sometimes, but not that much more than by most other builds), and previously was of the opinion that they aren't really an issue.
I've since changed opinion due to some good arguments here on the boards.

I think there's two slight balance issues of SRMs and the Catapult and just that when you combine them things get out of hand.

- Many of the best variants/builds of most 'mechs include SRMs. SRMs are very strong weapons. I'm not saying they on their own are broken, they are just very very good weapons. The only weapons that I would say rival them are Medium Lasers and UAC-5's, but those are good due to versatility rather than power.

- Many of the builds branded as OP have been catapults, far more than any other chassis. Catapults are very good 'mechs, with potentially good speed, fantastic maneuverability, large boating capability and good armor. The layout's basically their largest weakness, but with good speed and armor that's less of an issue.

It's when you combine these two that we start to see real issues. It's basically the same issue as with the Gaussapult - Gauss was a weapon just a little too good, and that combined with the K2 (which has great layout compared for ballistics builds, far better than the other ones have for missiles) made an obnoxious death machine. SRMs are maybe just a little too good, and that combined with the catapult design makes something of an obnoxious death machine (though I find it less bad than the Gaussapult, but whatever).
Gauss got a nerf, so that now it's used on the 'mechs it was designed for - long range fire support 'mechs. The gaussapult is still around but is a sniper rather than an all-around brawler/sniper, and gauss are still strong choices for many cataphracts and others as long-range weaponry.

SRM's are harder to nerf since what the gauss nerf did was limit gauss to it's intended role - sniping. SRM's are already only useful for their intended role - short-distance battles. However, I think SRM's could take a slight damage nerf and still see wide usage, they're just so good right now that any 'mech that can fit them, will fit them. Dropping them back to the 2 damage per missile as the TT would mean the SRM-6 still is a 3 ton weapon with a 12 point alpha in two slots and the same heat per second as a single medlas. That's good.
For a raven with SRM6+2 and 3 MLas (using that example since I have one like that myself) the alpha would drop from 15+5+15=35 to 12+4+15=31. Noticeable but not changing how you play it, and I'd still pack them. For a splatcat the alpha would drop from 90 to 72, drastically increasing the possibility to survive such an attack.

At the same time, I agree with others saying the catapult is maybe a little too strong a chassi. It's not that it's "overpowered", it's just that it's a bit better than most others. That combined with it's boating capabilities means if a weapon is a little bit too strong that is capitalized in the catapult. I think dropping it's maneuverability a little bit is a good choice - it doesn't break canon, it doesn't hurt the Catapult in it's intended purpose noticeably and it still will be an option for melee too. Scaling the torso arc to 110 degrees (same as spider, slightly less than jenner, still 50 degrees more than the stalker) and lowering the torso twist speed would mean it can be useful in a fight but can't outmaneuver a cicada as easily (I think the catapult, even in original design, is meant to do some close-combat; it has four medium lasers, which is a pretty heavy loadout for a long-distancer with only 2xLRM15).

TL;DR: Rather than either catapults or SRM being outright "broken", both may be just a tad bit too strong and taking both back a little bit will keep them useful without making the combination overpowered. How to do this:
- SRM's do 2 damage per missile.
- Catapult torso twist of 110 or 120 degrees and not as fast.

Edited by Stringburka, 10 February 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Krellek]

Indoorsman, on 10 February 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

What about splatapults worth their salt blowing the light mech up?

stay out of the minimum range, you're in a light mech????

Either way, had 2 throw my 2 cents in on this. I'm done now. Every game will have people who are too stubborn to learn work arounds for hard counters. Not a single pilot in my unit complains about those mechs because they know how easy they are to kill.

Edited by Krellek, 10 February 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Krellek, on 10 February 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

stay out of the minimum range, you're in a light mech????

Please sir, there is no need for you to interject logic into this seemingly verifiable and debatable issue.

[Stringburka]

Krellek, on 10 February 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

stay out of the minimum range, you're in a light mech????

With how ECM works, and the current level design (especially conquest) that isn't always possible. Nearly ever conquest cap is protected, so it's REALLY easy for a ECM mech + splatcat to stage an ambush. I've been the ECM 'mech and it worked really well, as in, one alpha and they have no armor left - ripe for the picking for my raven.

Of course you can do things to increase your odds, and of course a good pilot will have an easier time than a bad one - but saying "these are countermeasures" in no way invalidated the fact that there might be a balance issue.

With that reasoning, you could for example have a Death Field module that kills anything below 50 tons if it comes within 300 meters automatically. The same point could be made - "hey, it's just to stay out of range" - that doesn't mean such a thing is balanced. Now, of course, this balance issue isn't close to a death field - just saying that just because you can increase your odds of something or that there are countermeasures doesn't mean the current balance is as good as it could have been.

Edited by Stringburka, 10 February 2013 - 12:25 PM.

[Indoorsman]

Krellek, on 10 February 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

stay out of the minimum range, you're in a light mech????

Ok, so in reference to what I was replying to originally, but with this new advice of yours... Snipe the ears off w/a light mech outside of 270m. Lights aren't really good at fighting outside of 270m, and being accurate and mobile at that range is even harder.

So far this page we have someone saying to run from a splatcat if you are a brawler, and to fight outside of 270m if you're a light. Seems like desperate measures for a not OP build to me,

Edited by Indoorsman, 10 February 2013 - 12:28 PM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Indoorsman, on 10 February 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

So far this page we have someone saying to run from a splatcat if you are a brawler, and to fight outside of 270m if you're a light. Seems like desperate measures for a not OP build to me,

Who said run from them if you are a brawler? I said run from them if you can't figure out how to beat them. A significant difference to what you are implying. I stated the skill set might be overpowered, but the chassis itself certainly isn't.

The desperation is the crying over something being overpowered because you can't figure out a working tactic...

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 10 February 2013 - 12:38 PM.