284 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

there is no abuing build in the game - there are just people that are afraid of a good fight - so they use build that are killing the fun.
and after the won battle after battle...due maxed SRM volleys they whine that MWO is so boring and need more features.

[Segoris]

Ryebear, on 10 February 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

The spirit of the OPs post was that these "abusive builds" should be discouraged. I take that as limiting the potential to create abusive builds.

Next, Indoorsman is in a very good position to complain about SRMs, SRM Cats and just plain Cats. Have a look at his videos.

And to everyone giving the poster who mentioned a Deathray grief. He was using a Deathray as a metaphor to polarize everyone into either 'learn to play' camp or the 'there might be something to this abusive build stuff' and maybe make people consider where they stand on it, and how universally applicable their beliefs are.

The "spirit" of the thread should read "situationally abusive builds" instead of what it says right now. Yes, the A1 is a strong brawler, no it is not unbeatable in a brawl. No, not every mech should be balanced perfectly and there should be stronger and weaker areas to every mech - and there is, A1 included.
The OP's original specific situational complaint was about them using an HBK-4p with small lasers losing to an A1 in a close quarters situation, as such many responses were tailored to that situation. Yes, the HBK will be at a disadvantage and has an uphill battle against an A1 if the HBK just runs straight for an A1, just like it would if the HBK was running straight for an Ilya, Atlas, Stalker, or K2. It would also have a lot of trouble if the HBK was playing equally dumb by running out in the open with no AMS, no ECM coverage, and a crapload of LRMs on the other team or if they were to be standing on top of a hill while snipers picked him apart.
As for people getting behind video of killshots on weakened targets....it's pointless and possibly the most stupid thing in this thread. I've said it in another thread - the pilot of that video may be good, I don't know them, but the video itself is not very telling. IMO, it being used in this way is just flat out wrong.

-Fix maps by adding more of them with less choke points (though I still don't see what's wrong with this current layout, if I'm sniping then I'm sure as hell not about to go in the middle of the city but that comes with experience) before nerfing situational builds which are favored by the current maps. Caustic alone is proof of it being a good place to start. Yes, it is possible and it does happen that A1's can still do really well in CV, but it is more difficult by comparison. If, after new maps are put in place and the A1 is still as strong, then decrease the speed an engine products in catapults. This causes higher engines being needed to attempt at getting the same speed and heatsinks, which would reduce a combination of armor, ammo, maneuverability, and overall survivability or damage potential while not changing any other mech.
-Additionally, with time comes the improvement of newbie experiences. ELO and hopefully some training ground type area or separate queues for new players (say - under 35 matches).

[PropagandaWar]

only thing OP about thundercats and gauss cats is the next to zero torseo. Same could be said for th PPC stalkers throw some tubes on there problem solved. We gang up on streak and SRM cats. They are a pain in the *** and often get close but are they op. Only if they hit you. Of course at 200 meters the Hellcat/SRM 6r is useless and melting its ears off is realitivly easy.

[Aggressor666]

Shade4x, on 10 February 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

My problem is the mentality. When someone gets killed by something alot, the first thing most players do is cry nerf, instead of trying to figure out the builds weakness, or trying to figure a way to counter it. There is always going to be a newbslayer build, one that takes advantage of their lack of knowledge. I think that kills the game in the long wrong. When dev's listen to that, they turn every mech equal, with no advantages or disadvantages. This is at direct odds of the purpose of battletech. So instead of complaining lets see if we can't find a solution for you. I'll take you seriously as long as you take me seriously.

What type of build are you playing? What type of setup do you have? What do you do when you encounter an A1 CAT?

it doesn't really matter what mech I'm in its usually one or two shots = dead unless I happen to be in an undamaged atlas.
example my stalker is the mech I tend to run the most 255 engine 6 med's and 2 LRM15's
I try to dump the 4 tonnes of LRM ammo at range to soften up the enemy (and not have ammo in CQB) then move in with the 6 med's to mop up so 270 is the same range as srm's there's not much to be done strategy wise my 6 med lasers do 30 dmg his 6 srm's do 90 dmg so even if I managed to NOT take any hits (rarely the case) I still have only 86 hp CT fully armored and 18 head with the srm spread you'd be amazed by the times you die to cockpit damage.

[Silpher K]

these builds are very situational, and the beauty of battletech/mechwarrior is the variety and diff play styles that can be put on the table. these mechs only excel in very specific situations, and have their downsides as well.

srm cats, their ears are HUGE. they have zero effectiveness in long to mid range, take their ears out at a range, and you dont even have to kill them til later, it only takes a few shots from your sniper fire. they have to focus and try to close the range gap, and their role is to do that and pack a punch inside a brawl. alternatively take out a leg, now they can't close their gap and are stranded as you increase your distance from it.
if your entire team has no range or awareness to target its ears when you see one, there is the problem, not the cat itself.


ac20 pult? they are EXTREMELY slow, take out it's leg and it's done. focus fire down these glass cannons and you effectively bring down a HUGE portion of the enemy's teams damage. when that ac20 pult pilot could have been in a beefy atlas brawler or lrm support in the back that could contribute in other ways, but nope. there are high risks of running these builds, and they will cost the team when they make the mistake. the pult has great twist and speed, but the latter is compromised for the ac20 build, it's weakness is how huge and easily targetable ANY of the body parts are. that spells suicide without speed.

remember, situational builds are just that, situational. dont let them HAVE that situation is your stratergy, and them trying to GET into that situation is their stratergy, it's fair play in the battlefield.

Edited by Silpher K, 11 February 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[Kenyon Burguess]

cheesy builds are cheesy, and that's how every mmo is. all the devs need to do is reduce the number of weapon slots available down to the the original variant has. this prevents the massive gun placement where only a machine gun once existed and will reduce the number of srms the catapult can carry.

[LordBraxton]

Helmstif, on 02 February 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

Oh and I forgot to mention, it's technically IMPOSSIBLE to get AROUND an Catapult. That thing has a head of an owl that turns to all sorts of creepy directions. Why the **** would they make a long-range support 'Mech turn like that?

truth

[Gothbloodman]

So, if they nerf these cats out of existence, then won't it only be a matter of time until a new "ideal" build is discovered (and I agree with others - A1 and K2 are not "really" ideal), taken advantage of, nerfed, and then all mechs become virtually the same? Obviously this won't happen. But my point is (and I've seen others make similar points on here) I think part of the fun of this game is loading up odd weapon combos and seeing if they work or not! Boating isn't cheating; it is interesting! Do people complain that Swayback has too many medium lasers? Besides, A1 and K2 are just the flavor of the week. Soon, we will have a new patch, and we will be complaining about another build! No worries!

[Stringburka]

No-one is saying they should be nerfed out of existence. Taking them down a notch to the level of most other builds != nerfed out of existence.

[Segoris]

No, but there are some people (not all) who are creating exaggerated theoretical situations as well as providing uninformed and/or exaggerated opinions while taking things out of context. There are already builds which stand toe to toe with an A1 in brawling but people act as the A1 is the undisputed king because they are a bit popular.

[TVMA Doc]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Splatcats are overrated as hell. They don't scare me in the least. A good Atlas will outbrawl it any day.

Other than the times when I mess up and get in a bad position/don't notice the splatcat, I typically will win a brawl with my Atlas. They are far from an "I win" button. They may be a bit of an overpowered one-trick-pony-for their weight, but there are plenty of counters.

[Stringburka]

Segoris, on 11 February 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

No, but there are some people (not all) who are creating exaggerated theoretical situations as well as providing uninformed and/or exaggerated opinions while taking things out of context.

Agreed, but that happens on both sides. A lot. Whether it's "just shoot it's arms of, unless you're a crappy sniper" or "just torsotwist and they won't hit your arms, unless you're a crappy cat pilot" it's exaggerated.

Both sides are theorizing about tactics and damage etc.
Both sides are putting forward anecdotal evidence.
Both sides are a bit rude at times, but I think the "there isn't an issue" side is a lot worse in that department. It's also people from that group that has several times indicated this shouldn't even be discussed at all, which of course is not just bad manners but directly counterproductive in a beta of all things.

Some people feel it's a lot too powerful, some people think it's fine. Usually (but of course not always) the truth lies somewhere in between the extremes - that is, it might be slightly too powerful without being completely broken.

Regardless, it is a very very strong build, and I feel that if there's two options:
1. Let it be as it is. Some people will feel it's just a ******* good build, some will think it's outright broken.
2. Slightly nerf it. Some people will feel it's an okay build, some will think it's a ******* good build.
There's also 3. Nerf it to hell. Some people will feel it sucks, some will think it's okay.

I think 3 is the worst option and shouldn't really be considered, but between one and two, I feel number 2 will likely satisfy most people. Of course there'll be some people there who'll say "splatcats are completely workthless now QQ", but that's the case of all balance changes (heck, if they dropped the Gauss to 14.9 damage we'll have an outrage of "gauss suxxorzzz after nerfbat").

[Hex Pallett]

Stringburka, on 11 February 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Regardless, it is a very very strong build, and I feel that if there's two options:
1. Let it be as it is. Some people will feel it's just a ******* good build, some will think it's outright broken.
2. Slightly nerf it. Some people will feel it's an okay build, some will think it's a ******* good build.
There's also 3. Nerf it to hell. Some people will feel it sucks, some will think it's okay.

A proper way of nerfing it would be increase scattering. The more it boats, the worse it scatters.

Or we can totally redesign the maps so there wouldn't be soooooooooooo much brawling space.

[Stingz]

Helmstif, on 11 February 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

A proper way of nerfing it would be increase scattering. The more it boats, the worse it scatters.

Or we can totally redesign the maps so there wouldn't be soooooooooooo much brawling space.

Fix missile ports so that multiple launchers don't overlap? It would force the x3 SRM-6 to spray across 15 pipes, in 15-3 volleys.

[Mental Hippie]

Why not just give a small heat penalty for every additional weapon of the same kind? It would add up, and while boating would still happen people would think long and hard about if it was worth it.

I know I saw mentioned somewhere else that there was another mech game with a mechanic like that, but can't find the post.

[Wolf Clearwater]

Neither of those cat builds is as overpowered or cheesy as the the ECM + SSRM light mech builds.

[Stringburka]

Wolf87535, on 11 February 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Neither of those cat builds is as overpowered or cheesy as the the ECM + SSRM light mech builds.

Somewhat agreed. But hasn't PGI already announced that ECM will get nerfed? Because it's mostly ECM that makes them (us >) as dangerous as they are.
But it should be noted that ECM+SRMs are potentially even more dangerous, depending on who you're fighting. When chasing lights, SRM is better, when trying to take down heavies and assaults, a craven with SRM6+2 is fantastic (even better than SSRM2+2)

[Segoris]

Stringburka, on 11 February 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Agreed, but that happens on both sides. A lot. Whether it's "just shoot it's arms of, unless you're a crappy sniper" or "just torsotwist and they won't hit your arms, unless you're a crappy cat pilot" it's exaggerated.

Both sides are theorizing about tactics and damage etc.
Both sides are putting forward anecdotal evidence.
Both sides are a bit rude at times, but I think the "there isn't an issue" side is a lot worse in that department. It's also people from that group that has several times indicated this shouldn't even be discussed at all, which of course is not just bad manners but directly counterproductive in a beta of all things.

Some people feel it's a lot too powerful, some people think it's fine. Usually (but of course not always) the truth lies somewhere in between the extremes - that is, it might be slightly too powerful without being completely broken.

Regardless, it is a very very strong build, and I feel that if there's two options:
1. Let it be as it is. Some people will feel it's just a ******* good build, some will think it's outright broken.
2. Slightly nerf it. Some people will feel it's an okay build, some will think it's a ******* good build.
There's also 3. Nerf it to hell. Some people will feel it sucks, some will think it's okay.

I think 3 is the worst option and shouldn't really be considered, but between one and two, I feel number 2 will likely satisfy most people. Of course there'll be some people there who'll say "splatcats are completely workthless now QQ", but that's the case of all balance changes (heck, if they dropped the Gauss to 14.9 damage we'll have an outrage of "gauss suxxorzzz after nerfbat").

I disagree about one side being more rude then another. I find it equally as rude that every person believes they need to make a new topic for something which I find to be a non-issue until more of the game is implemented, namely additional maps. Currently, brawlers (not solely the A1) are being looked at in a vacuum. This vacuum was created after ECM was implemented with two out of three maps being a brawlers dream (with smart routes and positioning). Meanwhile, nerfs happened to SSRM and LRMS and are only now becoming more viable again as ECM begins being seen less often.

That is a big part of why I have an issue with your previous post basically saying they need to be brought in line with other mechs, the A1 and other brawler builds are pretty well balanced overall. However, the situations are not and this does, and will continue to create issues until there are reasons to consider the possibility that you won't be in a brawler favored map when a pilot launches.

As for the options of 1, 2, and 3 you've provided. It is weird - these forums have a poll going where the overwhelming majority felt the A1 is just like any other mech in terms of whether or not it is broken, but then we have threads like this, so it's a pretty well mixed bag. If there is any sort of nerf, it will just lead to the next best build and people will then complain about that too. Not every mech will always be able to be balanced perfectly, nor should it or why even have variety at all? As for the Gauss theoretical situation - look at how much less you see of those with how fragile they have become. Nothing else has changed, people just switched to the next most powerful weapon with the least drawbacks, this is normal in every competitive game.

[Segoris]

Stringburka, on 11 February 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

Somewhat agreed. But hasn't PGI already announced that ECM will get nerfed? Because it's mostly ECM that makes them (us > ) as dangerous as they are.
But it should be noted that ECM+SRMs are potentially even more dangerous, depending on who you're fighting. When chasing lights, SRM is better, when trying to take down heavies and assaults, a craven with SRM6+2 is fantastic (even better than SSRM2+2)

Yes, they announced ECM is being "nerfed." Those proposed changes make me think that it will mostly change things for the Atlas and the lights+Cicada ECM will not notice this nearly as much.

Edited by Segoris, 11 February 2013 - 06:06 PM.

[Hex Pallett]

Stingz, on 11 February 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

Fix missile ports so that multiple launchers don't overlap? It would force the x3 SRM-6 to spray across 15 pipes, in 15-3 volleys.

Exactly. Splatcat's guns really should have the spread of LRM20.

Mental Hippie, on 11 February 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

Why not just give a small heat penalty for every additional weapon of the same kind? It would add up, and while boating would still happen people would think long and hard about if it was worth it.

I know I saw mentioned somewhere else that there was another mech game with a mechanic like that, but can't find the post.

This, if happens, would also solve another possible OP build under wide open maps: Hexa-PPC-Trollcannon Stalker.

Edited by Helmstif, 11 February 2013 - 06:20 PM.