605 replies to this topic

[Gumon Choji]

<br />
<p>Here is my take on the topic with the premis Btech was space knights and clans were modern warfare.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The clans were the manifestation of philosophical ideals outlined by greek thinkers and adopted by the science fiction genre.</p>
<p>Modernism, and scientific advancement and hope of the industrial age/ space age. Thus the dislike of the group comes from the same place as dislike for modernism. The dislike comes from modernism removing things like the romancit heros and romantic knights replaced with a less magical world. It was the point Btech went from space knights to space soldiers (see bottom). Much the same way that gunpowder made warfare more effective in killing. In mideval culture there were many single knights of renoun, modern warfare contains few non general heros. It was the removal of romance. War was for some time someting you watch while picknicking (Napolionic, Revolutionary were the last ones). This is where some dislike comes from. The game went from a war waged for love and honor to one to one for survival. It went from armored mech knights to walking tanks with armor peircing rounds. Old enemies unite making one big army vrs another big army. They unite to fight a losing battle and to make it &quot;real&quot; (create drama/gravitas) one house is whiped out with the first showing. Things changed overnight.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>A battle of survival is different then one of intrigue. The best way I can express this is think of how pirate films are today. They romance the trope of pirace and make you want to be on the black flaged boats. The romance is the draw, adventure in a world that is filled with supprise. This corelation is also great as the knight genra was what B tech was based on for story and it was later converted into the pirate genre. The other common movie genre today is the zombie movie. Fighting Zombies is like fighting the clans. Zombies are a modern way to let people kill millions without empathy, feeling or reason. They are the dream enemy for modern warfare, a mass of faceless opponents. You do not need a reason, thereis no romance in a literary term it is lots of fodder and characters are introduced to create pathose prior to them dieing. Things in the clan world and in zombie movies exist to show of how powerful the enemy is. The writing went from romantic heros to characters that were made to be killed off to show how powerful the opposition is. This change in tone was dramatic. It is like turning of seinfeld and getting tyler perry. Both can be fun but one is Jewish NY humor the other is black ATL humor. I promis you will know it is different. This is again what the clans did. It went from knights/ samuri/ warriors of the middle ages or fudal times and went into modern world war two blitz of an entire nation. The clans were science taken to the extreem with Spartian or fascist military and eugenics made real. It was a shock to the system. This was a big deal and as a kid I loved the clans but after reading the books I found that few authors could handle them as they are painted as a narative antagonist. They are too big and powerful, too perfect, too blessed to root for in a novel. You need a group or character who can struggle. Otherwise it is like hearing the kid who inherited a mining conglomerate as a billonare and now has 10 billion dollars. It is hard to root for them and say they had it hard. The clans are that which is struggled against. They are a narative tool and players are actually not supose to want them to win. Especially since they almst outlaw sex, speach, though, freedom, vacation, humanity, negotiation and human experiences that are not aproved. They are a world created by people with no social skills and no moral compas but with the genious to weild weapons. They are the zombie who cannot go down. This I think is why they are disliked. Old players were suppose to dislike clans and fight against them. Those who play numbers and do not like plot are to play the clans.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Me: Now I say this out of love as I love the old wolfies but noticed I began as a wolves dragoon With the update I switched to wolfies. I loved the tech and being outnumbered. There was a challenge in hearding an enemy group that was bigger. But I know this is lost o a game were team numbers are equel and thus I pity PGI and wish them luck in ballencing a group that was ballanced by having half the tonage and people as it's best outcome.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Closing comparisons to help new players</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Each nation and faction in the original lore is a characture of a culture.</p>
<p>Kutrina is the Bushido code as the ideal which was created durring the Edo period after the actual time of the unification wars.</p>
<p>Davion is the round table. The amazing egalitarian feifs and internal politicing.</p>
<p>Lia is the warring states period and chinese dynasty. Basically the Dynasty wars.</p>
<p>Meric is the utopian impression of American self determination and manifest desteny. </p>
<p>Steiner is the tutonic knights. The big German heros of the middle ages.</p>
<p>Comstar was the Catholic church or other religious groups that brought order during these middle ages around the world.</p>
<p>This was culture and history wars with mechs.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Clans were different. They are modernism/ industrialism and worship of science.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The Plato's republic of a ruling cast of a few elected from the greatest people. The greatest people needed a method of selection. The cast rank was earned through battle and scientific selection. This was a common sci fi trope from the space age and a serch for a uberman. Showing a modernistic viewpoint reflecting on ideals established in classical philosophy.</p>
<p>The structure for raising children was based on the Spartans. Actually much of the culture was spartain based.</p>
<p>Soldiers who earn the right to have children who are raised by adoptive families is how Spartains functioned.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Like if you find this interesting.</p>

[Redshirt enraged]

I like or dislike the Clans the same way i like or dislike the so called great Houses of the inner Sphere.

When you look back to their history,it started with the the great exodus and noble ideals to create a new and better society.
But finaly they failed because of human nature. They fight each other like the great houses do,but seem to think their culture is superior. But the noble ideals they started with get corrupted and perverted.

Oh,and then there is their warrior caste,the so called trueborn warriors who appear so arrogant and pretentious,what make them real hard to like.

just my 2 cents

Edited by Redshirt enraged, 31 January 2014 - 11:58 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

I see this thread as a troll. Why?

I, as a Clan-centric player, could really care less about why somebody does not like the Clans. What my MW experience has shown me is that a really competent IS-centric player respects the Clans and does what he can to make sure he wins - he does not hate/dislike the Clans. Oh, sure, he may not like certain players or teams, but that is incidental. Those who dislike/hate the Clans typically cannot hold their own against a focused Clan-centric player/team because they are usually a poor MW player both in game skill and mindset.

IrrelevantFish, on 03 February 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

but from what I remember, the Clan ruling class consists almost entirely of brave, honor-bound psychopaths (good luck finding even one of those IRL)

You assignment of the Clan Ruling Class as psychopaths is a tad over the top. I can buy sociopaths, but not psychopaths.

Also, did you know that real life studies have determined that at least 25% of CEOs in the US are sociopaths and percentage of those are megalomaniacs and psychopaths? Our society REWARDS those people because they are willing to stomp all over whomever they have to to achieve their goals. When you take in the fictitious history of the IS and the dishonor shown by its rulers, it seems like the IS has had a much higher share of what you call "psychopaths", much more so than exhibited by the Clans.

That's real life, mate

I suspect most people REALLY dislike the Clans because 1) Clan-centric players tend to be able to use their tech more efficiently and 2) are of a collective mindset which led IS-centric players to get beat on a relatively regular basis. Nobody likes losing most of the time and I can understand that. But blame yourself for not being a better MW player instead of blaming the Clans.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 01 February 2014 - 07:18 AM.

[Uncle Totty]

Pariah Devalis, on 31 January 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

All the Inner Sphere houses are corrupt. All of them have various extreme elements that are in power to greater or lesser degrees. Same holds for the Clans, yet for some inexplicable reason people tend to lump "The Clans" as a single entity and not like they view the houses. Each Clan should be looked at on an individual basis. To do otherwise is a disservice to both the Clans' lore and to the individual who willingly neuters their education of the factions in the universe setting.

Why is there no "The Difference Between Clans" thread yet?

[Pariah Devalis]

Nathan K, on 01 February 2014 - 09:30 PM, said:

Why is there no "The Difference Between Clans" thread yet?

Because the Inner Sphere fans would not bother to read it. :\

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 01 February 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

Because the Inner Sphere fans would not bother to read it. :\

And true Clan fans do not need it.. Not THAT much at least

[SaltBeef]

They Clans should have assisted the Jags, smashed the Inner sphere invaders then removed OSIS from his Rulership with a Honor Loss due to his arrogance and lack of Vision followed by a trial in a circle of equals and absorbtion afterward. The Invasion Should have resumed and the clans at least should have fought for the repository. The clans with their cloning sibko could have produced many warriors more than they had battlemechs elemental suits for.

Edited by SaltBeef, 02 February 2014 - 11:30 PM.

[Mechwarrior0311]

People dislike the Clans because they are afraid, simple answer.

[Deathz Jester]

Mechwarrior0311, on 03 February 2014 - 02:54 AM, said:

People dislike the Clans because they are afraid, simple answer.

Where is this conclusion drawn from?

[Haakon Magnusson]

Ashla Mason, on 03 February 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

6. Players who don't give a rats *** about the lore: The reson why clan tech is inherently better from a game play stand point is because it facilitates a different style of play; the dueling style of the clans, so nothing irritates me quite so much as when people want clan weapons without having any intention of playing the way the way they're supposed to. Sadly, these people seem to be as common as ticks on a stray dog.

This is pretty much the reason why I hate Clans.. or more precisely that sub-class of twinks that play clans because er-ppc that can head shot (in TT) you makes them somehow inherently cool. Oh there is always an in character reasoning why they play clans, but the underlying truth is something like 15 points to the head.
And I do believe those some of the same people are up in arms about PGIs idea of re-inventing clan weapons (While I agree that they definitely need to be more advanced to jive with the lore, they don't need to be game-breakingly so. Especially since clans probably won't be limited in any other way like numbers or RoE, just another flavour of blues)

Maybe these people are not that common, but there are enough rotten apples to ruin clans for me.


And of course there is this little reason of my chosen faction, but then again, that is more of an IC dislike of clans which does not really represent my own opinion. I quite like to hate clans as an underdog

[Arnold J Rimmer]

CyclonerM, on 26 January 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Point taken. That is not true for everyone. I can swear on my honor that I... would follow Zellbrigen rules if implemented in the game or if we faced a particularly honorable Inner Sphere opponent.

Challenge issued, Cycloner. See you on the field.

[CyclonerM]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 03 February 2014 - 04:08 AM, said:

Challenge issued, Cycloner. See you on the field.

If you can get past my team's pugs without damage and find me alone without my teammates then i will be gladly fight honorably against you.

[LiGhtningFF13]

I can't wait to see the Clans here. Especially the jaguars! Come on and mix it with the IS.

Edited by LiGhtning90, 03 February 2014 - 09:01 AM.

[Dragomir Zelenka]

I "dislike" the Clans for the same reason I dislike the grim and gritty 90's era of comics, 90's anime, and much of the 90's output of pen and paper role-playing games.

In all cases it was an excess of, and obsession with a particularly childish form of cool, where being cool meant being more powerful and macho badass to a degree that approached parody.

The mindset that brought vampires with katanas and trenchcoats, and murderous "superheroes" festooned with pouches and bristling with guns is what led to the Clans being a bunch of "honorable" warriors with ludicrously overpowered tech and a culture that reads like a spoof of geek culture's fetishy obsession with the iconography of badass.

Some of the Clan mechs are neat looking, and some of the names and symbols are fun, but I have a hard time taking them seriously because I still remember all the nerds who worked themselves into a fanboy tizzy over all things Clan,

Edited by Dragomir Zelenka, 03 February 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[DONTOR]

Same reason no one like the yankees?

[Odins Fist]

Dragomir Zelenka, on 03 February 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

I "dislike" the Clans for the same reason I dislike the grim and gritty 90's era of comics, 90's anime, and much of the 90's output of pen and paper role-playing games.

In all cases it was an excess of, and obsession with a particularly childish form of cool, where being cool meant being more powerful and macho badass to a degree that approached parody.

The mindset that brought vampires with katanas and trenchcoats, and murderous "superheroes" festooned with pouches and bristling with guns is what led to the Clans being a bunch of "honorable" warriors with ludicrously overpowered tech and a culture that reads like a spoof of geek culture's fetishy obsession with the iconography of badass.

Some of the Clan mechs are neat looking, and some of the names and symbols are fun, but I have a hard time taking them seriously because I still remember all the nerds who worked themselves into a fanboy tizzy over all things Clan,

TRANSLATION:

Dragomir Zelenka, on 03 February 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

I "dislike" the Clans" because I was thrown a beating by them over, and over, and over, and over, and over again..
I also dislike the 90s because the 80s were better.

Transparency at it's finest, now tell the doctor where the bad Clan Mechs touched you.

Edited by Odins Fist, 03 February 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

#1: Bad Writing.
#2: Bad Writing.
#3: Bad Writing.

The Inner Sphere "made sense." It was generally terrible writing as well, but the backstory, the personalities, the conflicts, it all made sense, internally.

The clans... had no personality. Much like how the "Power Armor Space Marines" thing has gotten out of hand; the Clans were a bogeyman who just... made so very little sense. To me, at least. Your opinions may vary.

[CyclonerM]

Kraven Kor, on 03 February 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Your opinions may vary.

They do indeed, for me. I think more the opposite: the Inner Sphere has some good personalities but it is full of stereotyps (space heroes, space samurais, space China, space vikings, space terrorists, space techno-Church, space Germany..) and quite "banal".

On the other hand, the Clans are an original society born from a mix of different societies of the past centuries, with amazing traditions and different way of thinking. I find them more original and appealing. Yes, it's easy to just say "Hey, i am a merc, i love money & women, pew pew pew i'm going stomping you!" but i find more interesting RPing a Clan warrior.

[Pariah Devalis]

Pariah Devalis, on 01 February 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

Because the Inner Sphere fans would not bother to read it. :\

Kraven Kor, on 03 February 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

The clans... had no personality. Much like how the "Power Armor Space Marines" thing has gotten out of hand; the Clans were a bogeyman who just... made so very little sense. To me, at least. Your opinions may vary.

Case.

In.

Point.

"The Clans" as an overall entity seem shallow. As soon as anyone bothers to dig into the separate factions within the Clans they are absolutely flooded with their individual personalities and unique essence. Again, I fail to understand why anyone would willingly neuter their understanding of an in game faction as blatantly as what happens, consistently, with the Clans.

[CyclonerM]

Pariah Devalis, on 03 February 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Again, I fail to understand why anyone would willingly neuter their understanding of an in game faction as blatantly as what happens, consistently, with the Clans.

Did you mean 17 in game factions?