605 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

CyclonerM, on 03 February 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Did you mean 17 in game factions?

You know it!

[Ruhkil]

Jaroth Corbett, on 31 January 2014 - 06:31 PM, said:

Edo was not about a battle. That was about an uprising & an idiotic ship operator who did not know how to handle it & overreacted. It has no bearing on what we are talking about. Back to the topic, as a Ghost Bear , our batchall is very business like & straight forward. Other Clans have very, how shall I put it, flamboyant batchalls, but hey to each his own.

see the is the stale response that people have "oh edo bay and other instances of war crimes etc dont count because of reasons!!!!"

its stuff like this that make the clans hard to like.
for example lets pretend that the smoke jaguars did not bomb the city like the fiction went in a different direction in order to present a more nuanced picture of the smoke jaguars in particular or the clans as a whole.

so lets say an infantryman who is loyal to whatever great house controls that world (was it the DC? or FRR? idk ) during the surrender of IS forces does not recieve clear orders from his higher ups to surrender he fires on clan troops. The clans say EHRMAGAHD MY HONORS!!! and nuke the city. almost every situation with the jags involves slaughterThe level of control they seek to impose on people is so high that it could never work its ludicrous

you said that the ship captain "did not know how to handle it" how was he supposed to know how to handle it? Why would he trust the Smoke Jaguars? Because the clans are honorable? They just rejoined the Inner Sphere after hundreds of years of being away no one knows who they are. Resist us in any way we blow you up. blink an eye we blow you up cough we blow you up
your only options are
play their silly game and die in your crappy mech in a 1:1 fight which is rigged in their favor
-Or-
use tactics like ambush or guerilla war and they nuke you from orbit.
and you say they have honor becuase the idiotic space samurai are like them?The guys who commit ritual suicide with swords?

The DC is sort of like fuedal japan or one could argue Imperial Japan. If you focus on the lives of the DC mechwarriors who are Samurai it seems like an awesme thing to "have honor" know anything about comfort women or unit 731? at all?

The only way the Clans are likeable is if you have no empathy the clans are built on a perverse set of ideals.

Edited by Ruhkil, 03 February 2014 - 04:02 PM.

[Grunkzzz]

I didnt like them in the table top universe, and I still dont like them. Battle tech went down hill after the clans. I hope that doesnt happen here, but I cant imagine them being an improvement.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Grunkzzz, on 03 February 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

I didnt like them in the table top universe, and I still dont like them. Battle tech went down hill after the clans. I hope that doesnt happen here, but I cant imagine them being an improvement.

those statements can never be true, every players has favoritism of certain eras/events in the battletech universe. Please understand and accept that. Just because i think steiners are garbage because they cant fight their way out of a paper bag. they were crushed by clan wolf and clan falcon and if it wasn't for the truce of tukayyid, they would be gone(scum). that however is my opinon, it should be noted that despite heavy loses they never gave up, got to love that innersphere spirit

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 September 2014 - 09:04 PM.

[Craig Steele]

Isn't it a bit like saying why do some people not like chocolate. Some don't, some do.

I for one appreciate elements of both.

In IS the Capelleans do it for me, in the TT days it was the whole EW bit which grabbed me and then I came to appreciate the underdog side and so on and so on.

In Clan, its Jade Falcon or Snow Raven. JF for their tragically slavish devotion to the code of conduct and their excellence in all spheres despite its restrictions. Snow Raven for the smaller tighter ground forces, huge naval capacity and utilising "information" to deploy their slim assets to the most effectiveness.

But I don't like Davion (too much like hollywood for me, they always win even when they lose), or Clan Wolf for the same reasons.

The point is, they are varied and challenging for lots of reasons, there's something for everyone

[Kraven Kor]

For sure, if you like the clans, have fun.

I just don't. For "reasons."

[Hibiki Silvana]

I like clan tech personally. I like the honor bound dueling thing, it always pisses me off a bit when I get in a good duel and one of our allies comes in and interferes, there was honor on the line. The idea of outmatching somebody's skill and ingenuity beats out circumstance in my eyes. If my team is bad at aiding, and you win it's not my fault, what could I do? and the same for my opponents. SO, the only battles I consider victories are the ones where I've outmatched a player or two without assistance.
That said, "Stand in the grave of a thousand souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters".

Edited by Hibiki Silvana, 05 February 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[IrrelevantFish]

Gremlich Johns, on 01 February 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

You assignment of the Clan Ruling Class as psychopaths is a tad over the top. I can buy sociopaths, but not psychopaths.

There is no diagnostic criteria distinguishing sociopathy from psychopathy, and the terms are used effectively interchangeably in the scientific community, though "psychopath" was the preferred term as of a few years ago.

Gremlich Johns, on 01 February 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

Also, did you know that real life studies have determined that at least 25% of CEOs in the US are sociopaths and percentage of those are megalomaniacs and psychopaths? Our society REWARDS those people because they are willing to stomp all over whomever they have to to achieve their goals.

You're talking about the elite, not the ruling class. In the US, almost every non-impoverished voter is a member of the ruling class (ie, we have direct, official influence over our own governance), and is ~5% psycho/sociopathic, whereas in the Clans, only the blooded warriors have any real authority over their Clan as a whole and are psycho/sociopathic almost by definition.

The problem with that is that psycho/sociopathic behavior is incompatible with maintaining a stable society. That's why the official term for it is "antisocial personality disorder." Any organization where the bulk of the authority isn't in the hands of empathic, ethical individuals (and the Clans would be a good example of that) will soon experience revolution or devolution.

[CyclonerM]

IrrelevantFish, on 02 March 2014 - 09:55 PM, said:

The problem with that is that psycho/sociopathic behavior is incompatible with maintaining a stable society. That's why the official term for it is "antisocial personality disorder." Any organization where the bulk of the authority isn't in the hands of empathic, ethical individuals (and the Clans would be a good example of that) will soon experience revolution or devolution.

Their society has been working for about 300 years so far..

[Zolaz]

I think most people dislike the Clans because of the white bed sheets and burning crosses. You have to get along with people for people to like you.

[Dakkaface]

Ruhkil, on 03 February 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

The only way the Clans are likeable is if you have no empathy the clans are built on a perverse set of ideals.

See this statement? This is the sort of thing that fuels the endless go-around. You're not insulting Clans here, you are insulting Clan players and anyone who likes them by implying they have no empathy.

People need to learn that faction choice and personal attributes are not linked. Battletech is one of those black and grey settings where practically every single established faction has skeletons in the closet. No BT faction is 'right,' and everyone has black spots on their record. Kind of like the real world there. Faction choice is about picking who does things that you like those most, or seeing who does what you disagree with least. It's not about holding up your faction as pure and perfect paragons that 100% match with your own personality.

Zolaz, on 03 March 2014 - 06:17 AM, said:

I think most people dislike the Clans because of the white bed sheets and burning crosses. You have to get along with people for people to like you.

That's the Klan. As opposed to the Clans, which are led by a Khan, the Klan is lead by a Dragon. No, not that Dragon. Not that Dragon either. A Grand Dragon. No, not that one. Hmm, I guess I can see how you'd be confused.

Edited by Dakkaface, 03 March 2014 - 06:13 PM.

[IrrelevantFish]

CyclonerM, on 03 March 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

Their society has been working for about 300 years so far..

And that's unrealistic in ways I find hard to swallow. The BattleTech IP has always striven for a certain level of psychological and sociological realism but I don't think the Clans are anywhere near it.

[Craig Steele]

But why.

I only went back to February so if you explained your view before then I apologise, but I don't see what your view is?

Given the Clans were basically the majority of the BT universe (in terms of published work and tenure of the product) I find it hard to understand why you would minimise there contribution to the lore.

The lore is that the Clans have existed for 300 years and while there have been some pretty poor Khans and blood letting, its no more than the crazies plaguing the Inner Sphere over the same time line. We could probably add them up and come to similar numbers I suspect.

There are some countries here today that maintain (or perhaps more accuratly implicitly consent to) rigid caste systems and they have proven more than capable of surviving in the modern age.

So as far as realism goes, caste systems can not only survive but prosper. And the fragility of human nature is no worse than what it is in the Inner Sphere, so why shouldn't they work?

[CyclonerM]

IrrelevantFish, on 07 March 2014 - 09:51 PM, said:

And that's unrealistic in ways I find hard to swallow. The BattleTech IP has always striven for a certain level of psychological and sociological realism but I don't think the Clans are anywhere near it.

The Inner Sphere feudalism (and many traditions and societes on single planets) have survived intact even more time than the Clans, so why not?

[Littlefingers]

Here is why I personally don't like the Clans and never will (the only good clanner is a dead clanner). Way back in the star league era when Aleksandr Kerensky was needed most, He and three quarters of the Star League Defense Force fled the Inner Sphere. So as far as I am concern they are TRADERS! I also feel that their descendants are as guilty as they are. Also I must add that they did not return in peace. They came as invaders and no quarter should be given to them.

[Tank]

Littlefingers, on 14 July 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

Here is why I personally don't like the Clans and never will (the only good clanner is a dead clanner). Way back in the star league era when Aleksandr Kerensky was needed most, He and three quarters of the Star League Defense Force fled the Inner Sphere. So as far as I am concern they are TRADERS! I also feel that their descendants are as guilty as they are. Also I must add that they did not return in peace. They came as invaders and no quarter should be given to them.

And you just gonna ignore house lords for messing everything up in first place and waging war for next 300 years? And if not Clanners - Inner Sphere would continue it's pathetic succession wars.

Alexander Kerensky made a call for exodus and it was voluntary, they followed him because they trusted him and not house lords. Over all you should hate Kings and Nobles of Inner Speher for SLDF departure.

Clans came as conquerors, they came take your land and people - while I'm disapprove this, but at least they don't wage endless cycle of genocide that Inner Sphere brought upon itself do the greed and power.

I say, even if they are enemies - they deserve respect.

[Pariah Devalis]

We also usually upgraded the quality of life in the planets taken. At least in the ones captured by CW, CGB, and CNC. Upgraded infrastructure, education, healthcare, etc. The state of the average Spheroid's planet was surprisingly deplorable.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Littlefingers, on 14 July 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

Here is why I personally don't like the Clans and never will (the only good clanner is a dead clanner). Way back in the star league era when Aleksandr Kerensky was needed most, He and three quarters of the Star League Defense Force fled the Inner Sphere. So as far as I am concern they are TRADERS! I also feel that their descendants are as guilty as they are. Also I must add that they did not return in peace. They came as invaders and no quarter should be given to them.

First off, spelling. Wow. I think you mean "traitors". Secondly by leaving when they did, they removed a HUGE arsenal out of the warring factions hands. The Succession Wars would have gone a LOT worse had elements of the SLDF been fighting for one SS or the other. Think before you type.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 14 July 2014 - 07:57 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

Jaroth Corbett, on 14 July 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

First off, spelling. Wow. I think you mean "traitors". Secondly by leaving when they did, they removed a HUGE arsenal out of the warring factions hands. The Succession Wars would have gone a LOT worse had elements of the SLDF been fighting for one SS or the other. Think before you type.

To be fair, that is speculation on both our parts and on the part of the BT writers.

We don't really know what would have happened had they not left; nor do the writers, though they would have made something up.

In short: Fictional characters. Fic-shun-ul Care-ack-terz. /me makes bad sign language

Edited by Kraven Kor, 14 July 2014 - 09:17 AM.

[Bregor Edain]

Littlefingers, on 14 July 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

Here is why I personally don't like the Clans and never will (the only good clanner is a dead clanner). Way back in the star league era when Aleksandr Kerensky was needed most, He and three quarters of the Star League Defense Force fled the Inner Sphere. So as far as I am concern they are TRADERS! I also feel that their descendants are as guilty as they are. Also I must add that they did not return in peace. They came as invaders and no quarter should be given to them.

Those damned traders got to die, all of them! I wonder what a traders death would be...

Anyway, by your logic any crime your ancestors 300 years ago might have commited make you just of guilty of it too. I hope you see a certain flaw in this. Kerensky was there when they needed him most by removing the Usurper and the thanks he got from the powers that be was to strip him of title and the power that went along with it. But if you wish to call 6 milion man, women and children that where tired of wars over a position of power traitors, then go ahead and show your true colours

Edited by Bregor Edain, 14 July 2014 - 10:39 AM.