605 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

Ruhkil, on 31 January 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

so it is almost irrelevant if its a sneak attack or not they will modify their attacking force to whatever the defenders have so it is equal or stacked in the defenders favor. im pretty sure they can even set a date that favors the defense.

It is NOT a sneak attack in any way shape or form if you are told, "Hey, we are going to attack you................................as soon as you tell us how many of you there are."

A sneak attack means no warning, no dialogue; we come out swinging.

Ruhkil, on 31 January 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

a side note

after reading some of the debate of how the clan batchall (spelling?) is or is not a sneak attack i felt i had to clarify from what i knew. I may be wrong its been a while since i looked at it.

lets pretend that the clan wolf invasion force of however many galaxies of mechs shows up over a periphery world that only has one lance of medium mechs on it for whatever reason.

seems stupidly unfair to have 2000 mechs hovering above a world with 4 on it.
however the wolves would say "we are clan wolf we issue a challange!!!" the defenders are supposed to say we have 4 mechs and will resist you or whatever. the wolves up on their ships would argue and alpha galaxy commander would say i can take this world with 3 mechs beta galaxy would say i can take this world with 2 mechs!!! and so on and so forth.
it is entirely possible that the 4 inner sphere machines could be facing one timber wolf by the time the clans stop arguing among themselves. Especially when the clans view the IS as vermin not worth of respect they might just send some elementals. the problem happens when the IS guys lie and actually have 16 mechs on the planent take out the one timber wolf and then the rest of clan wolf/jaguar/jade falcon throws a **** fit and throws everything down at them. its a culture clash.

you can call it corny that these space cadets wage war this way but it is *fair* if you follow the rules.
sorry for spelling

That means the IS has to play by the rules too. People seem to forget that. If a batchall is issued & the defenders do not state what they have, the Clan force is allowed to attack with any & all forces at it's disposal, so it would be in the defender's best interest to do so.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 31 January 2014 - 03:46 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Pariah Devalis, on 31 January 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

All the Inner Sphere houses are corrupt. All of them have various extreme elements that are in power to greater or lesser degrees. Same holds for the Clans, yet for some inexplicable reason people tend to lump "The Clans" as a single entity and not like they view the houses. Each Clan should be looked at on an individual basis. To do otherwise is a disservice to both the Clans' lore and to the individual who willingly neuters their education of the factions in the universe setting.

Exactly. If I had to pick a clan to be okay with, it would probably be Ghost Bear (who had a -very- interesting interaction with the conquered portion of the FRR after the initial invasion). I know most people would say 'Wolf in exile' or something, but I've never really been a fan of mary-sueing, even if it is with an entire mercenary unit or portion of a society.


.....besides, Kodiak.

[Ruhkil]

Jaroth Corbett, on 31 January 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

It is NOT a sneak attack in any way shape or form if you are told, "Hey, we are going to attack you................................as soon as you tell us how many of you there are."

A sneak attack means no warning, no dialogue; we come out swinging.



That means the IS has to play by the rules too. People seem to forget that. If a batchall is issued & the defenders do not state what they have, the Clan force is allowed to attack with any & all forces at it's disposal, so it would be in the defender's best interest to do so.

then this wolf commander is either dumb or intentionally obtuse and this particular attack is a sneak attack to a degree.

i remember from this old book i had on the clans where they detailed the process and it seemed rather fair.

The real issue is poor writing, why would the wolf commander think that the IS forces know what batchall means? he is being really unreasonable and it could be argued behaving without the clans precious honor. YOU HAVE ONE MINUTE TO GUESS THE MEANING OF A MADE UP WORD HONORLESS DOGS WITH WHICH WE HAVE HAD NO CONTACT FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS!!!!!

[Ruhkil]

also how are his forces supposed to duel or have honorable combat if he releases 3-4 times as many troops as this world can muster. this is poor writing and/or a odd decision on the part of that wolf commander. maybe his crusader mindset is warping how he sees the sphereoids?

put it this way if the world he was fighting on was controlled by clan ghost bear it would be a fair process which i know it is not and therefore sort of misses the point but this dialog in a way between the two of us shows why people hate the clans.
this series of misunderstandings that lead to destruction for no reason from a either super commie or super {Godwin's Law} group is bound to get peoples blood up.

Edited by Ruhkil, 31 January 2014 - 04:32 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Ruhkil, on 31 January 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

then this wolf commander is either dumb or intentionally obtuse and this particular attack is a sneak attack to a degree.

i remember from this old book i had on the clans where they detailed the process and it seemed rather fair.

The real issue is poor writing, why would the wolf commander think that the IS forces know what batchall means? he is being really unreasonable and it could be argued behaving without the clans precious honor. YOU HAVE ONE MINUTE TO GUESS THE MEANING OF A MADE UP WORD HONORLESS DOGS WITH WHICH WE HAVE HAD NO CONTACT FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS!!!!!

I think you better think through & proof read what you write before you hit the "Post" button.

This is NOT a sneak attack.

Also

YOU WILL EITHER INFORM ME IMMEDIATELY OF THE COMPOSITION OF YOUR FORCES OR I WILL BE FORCED TO ATTACK WITHOUT THE HONOR OF THE [UNINTELLIGIBLE] AND WITH ALL THE FORCES AT MY DISPOSAL.

Yeah that ONE word made all the other words unrecognizable & impossible to get the gist of what she meant.

That ONE word rendered the ENTIRE message moot.

Really?

STOP

THINK

TYPE

STOP

PROOF READ

HIT POST

Ruhkil, on 31 January 2014 - 04:32 PM, said:

also how are his forces supposed to duel or have honorable combat if he releases 3-4 times as many troops as this world can muster. this is poor writing and/or a odd decision on the part of that wolf commander. maybe his crusader mindset is warping how he sees the sphereoids?

put it this way if the world he was fighting on was controlled by clan ghost bear it would be a fair process which i know it is not and therefore sort of misses the point but this dialog in a way between the two of us shows why people hate the clans.
this series of misunderstandings that lead to destruction for no reason from a either super commie or super {Godwin's Law} group is bound to get peoples blood up.

Again. Honor is for the honorable. If you do not reply to an honorable challenge it is gloves off.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 31 January 2014 - 04:50 PM.

[Ruhkil]

its all about context though. the clans left years before this would be like people from the 17th century who went to the moon without telling anyone coming back and declaring war on France and expecting the French to conform to a set of rules that they refuse to explain to them and then get pissed when they dont.

If this is how the bachall was typically carried out by the clans during the invasion the clans cannot say they carry themselves with honor they need to send an email explaning the rules of clan combat. My point was that if the Batchall being issued in the written passage someone cited is typical of clan behavior then it is either their odd ideas about the IS being worthless and a decay of the rules of Zelbrigen or poor writing on the part of whatever author wrote that.

If you read between the lines this is what the Clan Commander is actually saying/thinking
"i will wipe out you vermin and if i was not bound by peoples strange pretense of Honor I would grind you under my heel without notice"
its like the Klu Klux Klan rolling into a black town and challenging old people to a duel hoping someone tries to help their fellow man so they can burn the place down.

Ruhkil, on 31 January 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

its all about context though. the clans left years before this would be like people from the 17th century who went to the moon without telling anyone coming back and declaring war on France and expecting the French to conform to a set of rules that they refuse to explain to them and then get pissed when they dont.

If this is how the bachall was typically carried out by the clans during the invasion the clans cannot say they carry themselves with honor they need to send an email explaning the rules of clan combat. My point was that if the Batchall being issued in the written passage someone cited is typical of clan behavior then it is either their odd ideas about the IS being worthless and a decay of the rules of Zelbrigen or poor writing on the part of whatever author wrote that.

If you read between the lines this is what the Clan Commander is actually saying/thinking
"i will wipe out you vermin and if i was not bound by peoples strange pretense of Honor I would grind you under my heel without notice"
its like the Klu Klux Klan rolling into a black town and challenging old people to a duel hoping someone tries to help their fellow man so they can burn the place down.

Jaroth Corbett, on 31 January 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

I think you better think through & proof read what you write before you hit the "Post" button.

This is NOT a sneak attack.

Also

YOU WILL EITHER INFORM ME IMMEDIATELY OF THE COMPOSITION OF YOUR FORCES OR I WILL BE FORCED TO ATTACK WITHOUT THE HONOR OF THE [UNINTELLIGIBLE] AND WITH ALL THE FORCES AT MY DISPOSAL.

Yeah that ONE word made all the other words unrecognizable & impossible to get the gist of what she meant.

That ONE word rendered the ENTIRE message moot.

Really?

STOP

THINK

TYPE

STOP

PROOF READ

HIT POST




Again. Honor is for the honorable. If you do not reply to an honorable challenge it is gloves off.

Jaroth Corbett, on 31 January 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

I think you better think through & proof read what you write before you hit the "Post" button.

This is NOT a sneak attack.

Also

YOU WILL EITHER INFORM ME IMMEDIATELY OF THE COMPOSITION OF YOUR FORCES OR I WILL BE FORCED TO ATTACK WITHOUT THE HONOR OF THE [UNINTELLIGIBLE] AND WITH ALL THE FORCES AT MY DISPOSAL.

Yeah that ONE word made all the other words unrecognizable & impossible to get the gist of what she meant.

That ONE word rendered the ENTIRE message moot.

Really?

STOP

THINK

TYPE

STOP

PROOF READ

HIT POST




Again. Honor is for the honorable. If you do not reply to an honorable challenge it is gloves off.

see above

in addition the clans pride themselves on communicating clearly which is why the dont use contractions.... so you cannot use shortened versions of english words since it denotes low birth but clearly using a made up word you know for a fact you opponent does not understand is fine?

[Ruhkil]

its also a cultural word dude charged with meaning. If he was talking to another clansman they would know that the Batchall is a thing to be respected. A trial won under a batchall would free the world in question from harm. just because the IS commander can get the gist of the sentance does not mean {Scrap}. The whole point of the Clans lore is that they practice a restrained form of combat to limit collateral damage and display the skill of the individual warrior. Two things that will not happen in this situation. He is chomping at the bit using word games to engage in dishonorable combat. re read the whole thing

[Jaroth Corbett]

Ruhkil, on 31 January 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

its all about context though.

No it is not. One word does not change the entirety of the message. For the sake of argument let us say the word was never heard. At the exact time that word came out of Star Colonel Jera Carns' mouth, there was static on the line, THE MESSAGE WAS STILL CLEAR. STATE THE FORCES UNDER YOUR COMMAND OR I WILL BRING EVERYTHING I HAVE.

If you cannot grasp that then you are, what were the words you used?

Ruhkil, on 31 January 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

...................................either dumb or intentionally obtuse.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 31 January 2014 - 05:23 PM.

[Ruhkil]

another facet of it is the time it takes to get reinforcements or achieve a level of parity between the wolf invasion force and the IS defenders. the clans are obviously gonna win everytime if they issues batchalls with a one minute time limit and have a huge numerical and technological advantage over their suprised foes.... hahah wtf

[Jaroth Corbett]

Ruhkil, on 31 January 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

its also a cultural word dude charged with meaning. If he was talking to another clansman they would know that the Batchall is a thing to be respected. A trial won under a batchall would free the world in question from harm. just because the IS commander can get the gist of the sentance does not mean {Scrap}. The whole point of the Clans lore is that they practice a restrained form of combat to limit collateral damage and display the skill of the individual warrior. Two things that will not happen in this situation. He is chomping at the bit using word games to engage in dishonorable combat. re read the whole thing

AGAIN FOR THE THIRD TIME. Honor is for the honorable. The Clans do not practice this form of combat against pirates or the bandit caste. They get no batchall. The Clans gave the various units of the IS the honor of allowing them to state their forces. If they did, they would get a measured response. This is war. They Clans gave the the IS some leeway in this regard but they were not going to hold their hands.

[Ruhkil]

Jaroth Corbett, on 31 January 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

No it is not. One word does not change the entirety of the message. For the sake of argument let us say the word was never heard. At the exact time that word came out of Star Colonel Jera Carns' mouth, there was static on the line, THE MESSAGE WAS STILL CLEAR. STATE THE FORCES UNDER YOUR COMMAND OR I WILL BRING EVERYTHING I HAVE.

If you cannot grasp that then you are, what were the words you used?

no see this is the crux of the issue. the clans whole culture is wrapped up in the idea that this is how wars are fought. which was developed to be the very anti-thesis of the place they left which was *drum roll* the inner sphere. So how can the Clan Wolf commander in the cited passage not be considered anything but an {Dezgra} or a coward if this is how he has been invading planets as he steamrolls towards terra? it took the clans like 300 years of ritual to come up with batchall and their way of fighting. they even had the pentagon worlds back in clan space where they worked out issues with some wars being fought with IS tactics among the nascent clans. they cannot expect the IS to conform to their rules without explaining them first.

Edited by Ruhkil, 31 January 2014 - 05:57 PM.

[Ruhkil]

additionally, just because the IS commander can *understand* the Clansmans request does not mean that she can *participate* equally she is lacking the Clans upbringing and socialization to fully understand her situation and how to carry herself or bargin for her side.
for example she controls a regiment.
what is to say that she is not training a lance of replacements who at the present moment are terrible mechwarriors? does she include this in her composition or not? you could say its up to her almost infantile level of understanding of the situation(which the clan commander for all his "honor" will not explain to her to help her bargin) and the clansman will bid accordingly.

lets say these 4 bad pilots are in 2 clints and 2 vindicators( 2 light mechs and 2 medium mechs with each machine being up to a century old). in response the clan commander sends a star of Ryokens(5 medium CLAN mechs with better speed armor and weapons. Any two of which could easily stomp the IS lance even under the best conditions) piloted by mechwarriors from alpha galaxy of the clan wolf Touman(the best one the absolute tip of the spear so to speak). now what? was that engagement(among the other multitude of unfair engagments as a full galaxy (or more than one galaxy if he can find a technicallity he can exploit) of clan mechs pummel the IS regiment) fair? honorable?
for those who dont know
the clan galaxy is roughly equivalent to an IS regiment but contains 10-20% more war machines
i dont remember the numbers but its something like 200mechs in the IS regiment with 250-300 mechs in a clan galaxy and the wolf commander is going to throw anywhere from 300-900 mechs all of which are better than any of their counterparts among the 200 mechs arrayed against them.
the numbers are wrong but the ratio between the assembled forces is correct. The clan wolf leader wants a 3:1 advantage on top of his technology...

Edited by Ruhkil, 31 January 2014 - 06:02 PM.

[Sealawyer]

Ruhkil, on 31 January 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

additionally, just because the IS commander can *understand* the Clansmans request does not mean that she can *participate* equally she is lacking the Clans upbringing and socialization to fully understand her situation and how to carry herself or bargin for her side.
for example she controls a regiment.
what is to say that she is not training a lance of replacements who at the present moment are terrible mechwarriors? does she include this in her composition or not? you could say its up to her almost infantile level of understanding of the situation(which the clan commander for all his "honor" will not explain to her to help her bargin) and the clansman will bid accordingly.

lets say these 4 bad pilots are in 2 clints and 2 vindicators( 2 light mechs and 2 medium mechs with each machine being up to a century old). in response the clan commander sends a star of Ryokens(5 medium CLAN mechs with better speed armor and weapons. Any two of which could easily stomp the IS lance even under the best conditions) piloted by mechwarriors from alpha galaxy of the clan wolf Touman(the best one the absolute tip of the spear so to speak). now what? was that engagement(among the other multitude of unfair engagments as a full galaxy (or more than one galaxy if he can find a technicallity he can exploit) of clan mechs pummel the IS regiment) fair? honorable?

I am no clanner, nor do I like them, but my understanding of the Batchall was that it included levels of readiness to include training and equipment condition.

And I like words like don't, ain't, wasn't etc......

Edited by Sealawyer, 31 January 2014 - 06:01 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Ruhkil, on 31 January 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

no see this is the crux of the issue. the clans whole culture is wrapped up in the idea that this is how wars are fought. which was developed to be the very anti-thesis of the place they left which was *drum roll* the inner sphere. So how can the Clan Wolf commander in the cited passage not be considered anything but an {Dezgra} or a coward if this is how he has been invading planets as he steamrolls towards terra? it took the clans like 300 years of ritual to come up with batchall and their way of fighting. they even had the pentagon worlds back in clan space where they worked out issues with some wars being fought with IS tactics among the nascent clans. they cannot expect the IS to conform to their rules without explaining them first.

What is a batchall? Dialogue. Reply & discuss terms. It is as simple as that.

This is the first batchall ever issued & it was not done by a Clan force. (read the main print as well as the notes on the side) This was during Operation: Klondike.





You will be treated the way you act. The Clans recognized these were no barbarians & treated them with the respect honorable warriors deserve.

Look at this example taken from the novel Wolves on the Border:







The warriors of the Draconis Combine held to the tenets of bushido & the rigid discipline of the samurai. They looked down at & despised mercenaries. Why accept the challenges then? HONOR. You will be treated the way you act.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 31 January 2014 - 06:10 PM.

[Ruhkil]

Sealawyer, on 31 January 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

I am no clanner, nor do I like them, but my understanding of the Batchall was that it included levels of readiness to include training and equipment condition.

And I like words like don't, ain't, wasn't etc......

interesting i did not know it was so detailed and im pretty sure the IS commander wont know it either and will not act correctly. So in the hypothetical example she would send in the lance of bad mechwarriors in terrible machines to get killed becuase the Clan wolf guy wont explain the situation. she does not know that she can limit the engagement to a few skilled warriors.

Jaroth Corbett, on 31 January 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

What is a batchall? Dialogue. Reply & discuss terms. It is as simple as that.

This is the first batchall ever issued & it was not done by a Clan force. (read the main print as well as the notes on the side) This was during Operation: Klondike.





You will be treated the way you act. The Clans recognized these were no barbarians & treated them with the respect honorable warriors deserve.

Look at this example taken from the novel Wolves on the Border:







The warriors of the Draconis Combine held to the tenets of bushido & the rigid discipline of the samurai. They looked down & despised mercenaries. Why accept the challenges then? HONOR. You will be treated the way you act.

True but at the same time one cannot look at the warrior caste of a clan meeting eye to eye with the DC armed forces as an indication of fairness. something about the Smoke Jaguars and the Yakuza...hmm Edo something or other... war crimes... hmm

Ruhkil, on 31 January 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

interesting i did not know it was so detailed and im pretty sure the IS commander wont know it either and will not act correctly. So in the hypothetical example she would send in the lance of bad mechwarriors in terrible machines to get killed becuase the Clan wolf guy wont explain the situation. she does not know that she can limit the engagement to a few skilled warriors.


True but at the same time one cannot look at the warrior caste of a clan meeting eye to eye with the DC armed forces as an indication of fairness. something about the Smoke Jaguars and the Yakuza...hmm Edo something or other... war crimes... hmm

It is a clash of civilizations not just military,

Edited by Ruhkil, 31 January 2014 - 06:20 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Edo was not about a battle. That was about an uprising & an idiotic ship operator who did not know how to handle it & overreacted. It has no bearing on what we are talking about. Back to the topic, as a Ghost Bear , our batchall is very business like & straight forward. Other Clans have very, how shall I put it, flamboyant batchalls, but hey to each his own.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 31 January 2014 - 06:31 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Clan Nova Cat opens its challenge with, "We tracked the red dot to this miserable rock. We aim to capture it. With what forces do you defend it?"

[CoffiNail]

Pariah Devalis, on 31 January 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

Clan Nova Cat opens its challenge with, "We tracked the red dot to this miserable rock. We aim to capture it. With what forces do you defend it?"

just add through the smoke, and I think iteasily could be close to their batchall.

Edited by CoffiNail, 31 January 2014 - 06:57 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

CoffiNail, on 31 January 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

just add through the smoke, and I think iteasily could be close to their batchall.

Clan Nova Cat opens its challenge with, "We tracked the red dot through the mists of fate to this miserable rock. We aim to capture it. With what forces do you defend it?"

[Sky Ferrix]

Hillslam, on 31 January 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

I REALLY hate THOSE types of people. (which is frankly all of them)

So yeah thats reason enough.

F**K the clans
F**K clan players

Yes, I don't see anything wrong with signing off a whole category of individuals as "smug d**cks" based on a few negative interactions. Afterall, that mindset has proven to be so beneficial throughout history.

...Oh wait.