605 replies to this topic

[Davoke]

The Shredder, on 25 May 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

3. The IS does not have this vast array of nukes to throw around. Technically they are banned. You wouldn't have the munitions to carry out the assualt you laid out.
4. The IS wouldn't nuke their own planets. They might lure the clans to a remote world and nuke that, but not their actual populations.

Actually they have lots of nukes.
House Marik nuked one of their planets post-Clan Invasion(in about 3060, i believe), when the Marian Hegemony was kicking their purple butts off of it. So Marik technically won...with a radioactive planet.

[Wales Grey]

guardian wolf, on 25 May 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

I think I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

Crusader, Crusader, Crusader, Crusader. That's their mind set, not the Warden mindset.

Actually, yes, it is the Warden mindset. The Wardens just want to wait until the IS falls apart and then come riding in to save the day and implement their culture.

[Will9761]

Well here are my own views of why I hate the clans.

Might Makes Right:
The whole concept of might makes right is outright rediculous. For starters, they purely believe that "brawns beat brains" clearly that is a false statment because you also need the brains to win. Have you ever heard the saying, "Confidence is a good thing but overconfidence would be your downfall."? Well that kind of attitude was the downfall that cost them their victory on Turkayyid.

Narrow-mindedness:
Clansmen are way too trusting when it comes to fighting to the Inner Sphere. You could trick them into doing something stupid and they still wouldn't know it. The clans lack common sense even when it comes to bidding, because they always assume that you will play by the rules but in the end, they just screwed over because they are too guillable to believe you.

Trueborn vs Freeborn:
The trueborns believe that since they were bred by Kerensky descendants, they are superior to everyone. If you are a freeborn however, you get treated like crap. It doesn't matter if you are an IS freeborn or a Home Clan freeborn in the lower caste, they will act like bullies. On top of this, you get lower ranks, lesser respect, poor equipment, and less important task. However, this usually varies based on the clan you're in. Clan Smoke Jaguar is a perfect example on how a clan can go wrong: they never accept freeborns, they treat their lesser caste to brutal extents, and the warrior caste have arrogant beliefs that says, "It's all about me, so screw you buddy."

So those are basically the reasons why I hate those genetically bigoeted, narrow-minded, warmongers.

Edited by Will9761, 05 June 2013 - 04:14 PM.

[Klaus]

Well, first off I am not a fan of most clan designs (not just how they look, but weapons load outs as well), aside from the Madcat & Thor.



Like... How does this thing twist it's torso? It can't because it doesn't even have one! Seems like a massive disadvantage to me.

Also, I don't like the lore behind the clans because they seem so closed minded for a culture that should have been more 'evolved'. The confusing lingo and jargon they use to is just... I remember being a kid, reading one of the BT novels, and every time I saw someone say 'quaff' I though they were coughing up a lung. Meh.

[Joanna Conners]

Battletech is dystopian no matter what faction you support.

[Colonel Fubar]

Merchant, on 26 March 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

Because the Clans were the second biggest mistake in BattleTech dumping in a whole bunch of superior technology too much, too fast. I prefer gradual tech advancements.

Also it is representative of a problem with several games when it was done, that problem being that some game companies felt they had to have big world/universe shaking events to generate interest in the game. This led to players trying to keep up and if you preferred a different time period you were left in the cold with hardly anyone to play because of the belief you MUST play in the 'current' time.

The first big mistake was the 20 year jump from the 4th Succession War to just before the Clans arrived. Would have loved to play through the tech upgrades and events like the 3039 War but no, they just made it a footnote.

Mistake...I don't think so. Throughout history there has always been one group who has come up with a bigger better stick than another to enforce their will upon technologically weaker advisory's. History generally shows this gap between the have and have not's to be rather short period, until the latter adapts. I can quote many obvious examples from simple Stirrups over non-equipped Cavalry, the Cross Bow Over Platted Armor, or Nuclear weapons over conventional. I don't think that it is unrealistic for the writer's to have thought that a large group displaced from another would after a significant span of time reappear with a bigger stick; and as Yosemite Sam said... "and used it too!"

Edited by Danny Fubar Col 21C RHG, 24 January 2014 - 11:46 AM.

[fluffypinkbunny]

I personally hate the clans because they have no respect for Mercs. Money rules the Merc corps. While there is honor it's dependent on who will give you the contracts. Clans as far as I know, never gave any money to mercs and there for I would never like the clans. They have their own love and their own way of doing things, but would never accept the Mercs for what they do.

[CyclonerM]

fluffypinkbunny, on 24 January 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

I personally hate the clans because they have no respect for Mercs. Money rules the Merc corps. While there is honor it's dependent on who will give you the contracts. Clans as far as I know, never gave any money to mercs and there for I would never like the clans. They have their own love and their own way of doing things, but would never accept the Mercs for what they do.

Funny, said by a member of a FRR unit (who is actually a Snake )

[CoffiNail]

fluffypinkbunny, on 24 January 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

I personally hate the clans because they have no respect for Mercs. Money rules the Merc corps. While there is honor it's dependent on who will give you the contracts. Clans as far as I know, never gave any money to mercs and there for I would never like the clans. They have their own love and their own way of doing things, but would never accept the Mercs for what they do.

Due to a few dishonourable tactics displayed by Mercs, plus the fact that you are warriors for profit is what makes Clansmen dislike Mercs.

[Mr Blonde]

CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, on 02 February 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

Why would someone dislike the clans, I can't imagine why. I try to use the clan culture in all aspects of my life.

Like a few days ago I asked this girl out and she said "no ur creepy" so I told her that I wanted a trial of refusal. [redacted] So we are going out now and I couldn't be happier.

I can't imagine why people would dislike the clans.

[/sarcasm]

Wouldn't it have been more appropriate to have a Trial of Possession? She would be taken as isorla.

[Deathz Jester]

Klaus, on 31 May 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Well, first off I am not a fan of most clan designs (not just how they look, but weapons load outs as well), aside from the Madcat & Thor.



Like... How does this thing twist it's torso? It can't because it doesn't even have one! Seems like a massive disadvantage to me.

Also, I don't like the lore behind the clans because they seem so closed minded for a culture that should have been more 'evolved'. The confusing lingo and jargon they use to is just... I remember being a kid, reading one of the BT novels, and every time I saw someone say 'quaff' I though they were coughing up a lung. Meh.

Well I guess they saw fit to remedy the twist issue, which looks neat and all but i always thought that the lack of a torso twist was a major balancing feature of the Nova

Edited by Iron Harlequin, 24 January 2014 - 04:00 PM.

[990Dreams]

Oh I don't know...

You invade the IS to establish your dictatorship caste system and pillage and kill.

You're not guardians like Star League. You're pillagers. And that is coming from a Space Viking.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 24 January 2014 - 04:00 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Will9761, on 31 May 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

Well here are my own views of why I hate the clans.

Might Makes Right:
The whole concept of might makes right is outright rediculous. For starters, they purely believe that "brawns beat brains" clearly that is a false statment because you also need the brains to win. Have you ever heard the saying, "Confidence is a good thing but overconfidence would be your downfall."? Well that kind of attitude was the downfall that cost them their victory on Turkayyid.

Narrow-mindedness:
Clansmen are way too trusting when it comes to fighting to the Inner Sphere. You could trick them into doing something stupid and they still wouldn't know it. The clans lack common sense even when it comes to bidding, because they always assume that you will play by the rules but in the end, they just screwed over because they are too guillable to believe you.

Trueborn vs Freeborn:
The trueborns believe that since they were bred by Kerensky descendants, they are superior to everyone. If you are a freeborn however, you get treated like {Scrap}. It doesn't matter if you are an IS freeborn or a Home Clan freeborn in the lower caste, they will act like bullies. On top of this, you get lower ranks, lesser respect, poor equipment, and less important task. However, this usually varies based on the clan you're in. Clan Smoke Jaguar is a perfect example on how a clan can go wrong: they never accept freeborns, they treat their lesser caste to brutal extents, and the warrior caste have arrogant beliefs that says, "It's all about me, so screw you buddy."

So those are basically the reasons why I hate those genetically bigoeted, narrow-minded, warmongers.

As far as your narrow mindedness goes, we do have common sense, we simply made the mistake of expecting you all to fight honorably. When we realized you would not, we altered our tactics. Honor is for the honorable.

Of course you would use the Jags since they were the extreme but there always has to be a red herring so go ahead. However the Clans value the iron wombs because warriors are created with enhanced features. Yes freeborns get the short end of the stick a lot of times, however they still have a chance to prove their worth & earn a place in the Touman in almost all the other Clans.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 24 January 2014 - 05:17 PM.

[pbiggz]

People hate the clans because most of them conduct themselves like {Richard Cameron}.

What would you do if some guy dressed nicer than you strode into the room and told you that he was better than you and because of that you were a second class citizen who didnt know ****.

As much of a clansmen as I am, I can't help but think I wouldn't be especially happy with that set up.

[NocturnalBeast]

Klaus, on 31 May 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Well, first off I am not a fan of most clan designs (not just how they look, but weapons load outs as well), aside from the Madcat & Thor.



Like... How does this thing twist it's torso? It can't because it doesn't even have one! Seems like a massive disadvantage to me.

Also, I don't like the lore behind the clans because they seem so closed minded for a culture that should have been more 'evolved'. The confusing lingo and jargon they use to is just... I remember being a kid, reading one of the BT novels, and every time I saw someone say 'quaff' I though they were coughing up a lung. Meh.

Don't worry, PGI will add a torso, like they did with the Locust and Jenner.

Iron Harlequin, on 24 January 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

Well I guess they saw fit to remedy the twist issue, which looks neat and all but i always thought that the lack of a torso twist was a major balancing feature of the Nova

That is actually a really nice looking Nova, except it has a torso, so it technically is not really a Nova. It will be neutered by ghost heat anyway.

Edited by Ed Steele, 25 January 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Why do I dislike the Clans?

1 - Nicholas Kerensky was an egomaniacal madman, and his ideas were both incredibly radical and entirely unprecedented, yet somehow he managed to convince a sufficiently large portion of what should have been one of the most conservative groups of people in the galaxy (the loyalist soldiers of the Star League Defense Force) to reject centuries of tradition and practice, all of their fundamental political ideals, and even most of their underlying philosophical tenets, in order to create a fascist warrior-centric caste system that glorified warfare, vilified the family, and made trial by combat the default judicial process.

2 - The Clans are a caste system. Seriously, they voluntarily adopted a freaking caste system. How foolish and short-sighted do you have to be to think that a caste system is ever a good idea (even those societies in our time that have one only do so on account of legacy issues, and all of the successful ones are doing what they can to move away from it).

3 - Disagree with a policy? Trial by combat. Dislike somebody? Trial by combat. Covet something? Trial by combat.

4 - Warriors uber alles. If you aren't a warrior you don't matter. Sure, some Clans were more forward thinking and "liberal" in their attitudes (Wolverine, anyone?), but they were rare exceptions. One of the more prominant ones, the Coyotes, even became the secret big-bad of the setting simply because they objected to wholesale ******** once it became institutionalized during the Wars of Reaving.

5 - Test-tube babies are the only babies. If you aren't tailor-made from a genetic slurry drawn from a few people who managed to get themselves killed in sufficiently flashy ways, then you clearly don't matter. Natural birth is disgusting and inferior, and Kerensky forfend if we allow anything other than genetic purity to inform the development of future generations.

6 - Zellbrigen. It's not okay to defend your home and your family to the utmost, but it is okay to bombard a civilian population from orbit if that population has a few people trying to defend their homes and families to the utmost. It's not okay to use clever tactics to make up for disparity in numbers or technology, but it is okay to use radically superior technology to wipe out people who you haven't even informed that you are at war with.

There are other reasons, but those are some of the easiest ones for me to list.

[crucislancer81]

i played classic BT circa 1988 to 1999.

Why i dislike the clans?. well i dislike them because they broke with what made BT fun for me .
Back in the day every mech was a different thing with weakness and strong points,As most players had same Technology level.

it was fun trying to get a piece of star league mech or a weapon or a prototype and findin a SL or a royal mech was pherhaps the best thing could happen to you.

This went gone with the clans, i think the idea behind the clans was to much rushed up , and with them come better weapons better mechs and to many stuff than blow appart the old BT style.

its was clear the clans could not win with their traditional warfare rules, pherhaps if they assembled every warship and launched a scorched earth attack towards terra pherhaps.

this bring me to stuff , about the game. people will not follow clan rules , iS jocks will not have mele attacks to defend themelves or even numbers.

usualy clans favored the 1 of them vs 3 spheroid mechs so a star of clan omnimechs will figth no 5 or 8 is mechs but agaisnt 12 a whole company , and they can win agaisnt 3025 technology easily..

[pbiggz]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 25 January 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

1..in order to create a fascist warrior-centric caste system that glorified warfare, vilified the family, and made trial by combat the default judicial process.

Fascism is a hyper-right wing form of government, where the tenets of capitalism are taken to their most extreme logical conclusion (wealth is focused only on those who can take it for themselves, and anyone without money is essentially reduced to peasant status), while communism is hyper-left wing form of government where the tenets of socialism are taken to their most extreme logical conclusion (wealth is distributed among the populace actions are taken to strengthen the state on a macro-scale, and emphasis is taken away from the individual.)

Both concepts are critically flawed, for a myriad of reasons which some people dedicate their entire lives to studying, but do not confuse the two, they are fundamentally different forms of oppression.

If we analyze the clans, we will note that due to nicholas' policies, there is a certain emphasis, at least on the internal scale within each clan, on spreading supplies equally within the clan based on who needs those supplies. This is justified by the clan homeworlds being considered marginally habitable compared to the relatively pleasant worlds of the inner sphere. We also can note that riches and financial gain are not generally considered acceptable motives in clan culture. (Conquest and glory in combat aren't quite the same, and the clans are not generally known to "pillage" during the invasion). Most clansmen seek to gain personal "honour" by conducting themselves in a manner that will help their clan as a whole.

These aspects combined with what essentially amounts to a state-run militarized eugenics program means the clans are better described as a militant neo-socialist (left wing) caste-based meritocracy and NOT a fascist regime.

Edited by pbiggz, 25 January 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

pbiggz, on 25 January 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

Fascism is a hyper-right wing form of government, where the tenets of capitalism are taken to their most extreme logical conclusion (wealth is focused only on those who can take it for themselves, and anyone without money is essentially reduced to peasant status), while communism is hyper-left wing form of government where the tenets of socialism are taken to their most extreme logical conclusion (wealth is distributed among the populace actions are taken to strengthen the state on a macro-scale, and emphasis is taken away from the individual.)

Both concepts are critically flawed, for a myriad of reasons which some people dedicate their entire lives to studying, but do not confuse the two, they are fundamentally different forms of oppression.

If we analyze the clans, we will note that due to nicholas' policies, there is a certain emphasis, at least on the internal scale within each clan, on spreading supplies equally within the clan based on who needs those supplies. This is justified by the clan homeworlds being considered marginally habitable compared to the relatively pleasant worlds of the inner sphere. We also can note that riches and financial gain are not generally considered acceptable motives in clan culture. (Conquest and glory in combat aren't quite the same, and the clans are not generally known to "pillage" during the invasion). Most clansmen seek to gain personal "honour" by conducting themselves in a manner that will help their clan as a whole.

These aspects combined with what essentially amounts to a state-run militarized eugenics program means the clans are better described as a militant neo-socialist (left wing) caste-based meritocracy and NOT a fascist regime.

Fascism is nationalist socialism (even {Godwin's Law} means National Socialist). Economically-speaking facist regimes often bear more resemblence to faux-capitalist communist regimes than they do to any true capitalist system. Tycoons and such might "own" the means of production, but the state dictates what is produced, at what price, and to whom it is sold. Both Fascism and Communism are hyper-statist, and the Clans basically subsume the entire culture into the state. They have a merchant caste, who technically "own" the means of production, but the warrior caste dictates what they can do. That seems to track very nicely to a fascist system.

Obviously they aren't a perfect match, but considering the Clan ideology of the state (the state is all powerful, everyone must sacrifice for the state, and everything that everyone does is done on behalf of the state), I'd classify them as more fascist than anything else.

[CyclonerM]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 25 January 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Why do I dislike the Clans?

1 - Nicholas Kerensky was an egomaniacal madman, and his ideas were both incredibly radical and entirely unprecedented, yet somehow he managed to convince a sufficiently large portion of what should have been one of the most conservative groups of people in the galaxy (the loyalist soldiers of the Star League Defense Force) to reject centuries of tradition and practice, all of their fundamental political ideals, and even most of their underlying philosophical tenets, in order to create a fascist warrior-centric caste system that glorified warfare, vilified the family, and made trial by combat the default judicial process.

You have to remember that a greatly bloody civil war had just ended and everyone just wanted to get past it and forget it, so they were willing to change.

Quote

2 - The Clans are a caste system. Seriously, they voluntarily adopted a freaking caste system. How foolish and short-sighted do you have to be to think that a caste system is ever a good idea (even those societies in our time that have one only do so on account of legacy issues, and all of the successful ones are doing what they can to move away from it).

It worked for about 300 years..

Quote

3 - Disagree with a policy? Trial by combat. Dislike somebody? Trial by combat. Covet something? Trial by combat.

It is a good way to solve matters swiftly.

Quote

4 - Warriors uber alles. If you aren't a warrior you don't matter. Sure, some Clans were more forward thinking and "liberal" in their attitudes (Wolverine, anyone?), but they were rare exceptions. One of the more prominant ones, the Coyotes, even became the secret big-bad of the setting simply because they objected to wholesale ******** once it became institutionalized during the Wars of Reaving.

5 - Test-tube babies are the only babies. If you aren't tailor-made from a genetic slurry drawn from a few people who managed to get themselves killed in sufficiently flashy ways, then you clearly don't matter. Natural birth is disgusting and inferior, and Kerensky forfend if we allow anything other than genetic purity to inform the development of future generations.

Some Clans did treat better than others their "inferior" castes. I think about Wolves, Nova Cats and lately Ghost Bears (little trouble in their occupation zones for the first 2 and Rasalhague Dominion for the Bears - and Raven Alliance!).

Quote

6 - Zellbrigen. It's not okay to defend your home and your family to the utmost, but it is okay to bombard a civilian population from orbit if that population has a few people trying to defend their homes and families to the utmost. It's not okay to use clever tactics to make up for disparity in numbers or technology, but it is okay to use radically superior technology to wipe out people who you haven't even informed that you are at war with.

1) You are referring to 1 single case started by 1 single Jaguar commander. The Jags have lost much face after the razing of Edo.
2) They usually announce themselves declaring their own forces before an assault ..

crucislancer81, on 25 January 2014 - 12:01 PM, said:

i played classic BT circa 1988 to 1999.

Why i dislike the clans?. well i dislike them because they broke with what made BT fun for me .

Easy solution: Do not play Clans!
You can still use your Succession Wars scenarios,quiaff?