225 replies to this topic

[MegaBusta]

IceCase88, on 03 February 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

The size of the piece of equipment is entirely irrelevant. The argument is entirely without merit. Comparing the usefulness of a piece of equipment compared to similar sized piece of equipment that perform entirely different functions is comparing apples to oranges. Ultimately, ECM can be countered by ECM and TAG which means there are reasonable counters. It seems your issue is not really with a 1.5 ton piece of equipment but the lack of a training grounds for new players. I pug exclusively and suffer the same fate as the new players more often than not so I understand their pain. They cannot expect to come into this game and be the best like you expect them to. They will have to L2P like we all did and adapt like we all did. Thinking any other way is unreasonable. Would it make you feel better if the ECM unit weighed 7 tons like the Liao experimental ECM? Saying the game is cornered around a 1.5 ton piece of equipment is not only without merit it is just a lie.

Yes I do believe you are unreasonable. Starting by attacking the formating of a post to prove it wrong without attacking the facts of the post is unreasonable. I cannot help it if your eading comprehension skills are lacking. Next time I am at my computer I will be sure to format it in a manner you find acceptable. Bullet points, footnotes, simple words, etc..

I play several different roles for my different mechs and one of them is LRM heavy. I still do not have a probelm with ECM and I am not in the minority.

Ec-130H? What would be the point of making a statement no one can confirm? If I said I was an engineer that designs ECW equipment would you believe it? If he is one than he knows there is more to it than what he said and what I said, though basic, is pretty spot on. What would his explanation of bombers dropping precision guided bombs while ECW is being conducted on SAMs? Gps signal is pretty easy to jam. Who knew so many "ECM experts and specialists" played MWO? Wow!

The poll has far too many options. Not one of the options says why it is allegedly broken or OP. It is more complaints of infringing upon playing style with feeble attempts to prove it is OP by talking about its size and what not. All of these excuses are straw men to hide the fact it i fringes on your playing style. All the complaints amount to people being upset ECM was even implemented. By far the biggest winner so far is people are fine with ECM as it stands. Again, ECM is functioning like it should and as intended.

It pains me just reading this. And I'm sure if you're still checking this thread out you'll attribute it to my supposed lack of intelligence, but from where I see things it's due to your inability to build up a solid case, and yet handwave practically anything I say without backing it up, not to mention your poor writing structure. It's kind of ironic that you're claiming my reading comprehension skills are lacking, when you have the writing skills of someone in junior high school.

I also don't see anything here that explains why the size/weight of the piece of equipment is without merit. BAP DOES do something within the same area of gameplay, intel. They both weigh the same, they both occupy the same space. BAP provides a radar boost that still requires LoS, faster info gathering, and the situational ability to detect shutdown mechs at close range. ECM, on the other hand, counters BAP, counters itself, and it denies any and all information to the enemy, and even prevents allied communication from those within its area of effect. Where's the balance here?

How does the game NOT revolve around the damn thing right now? Your typical game involves either a ball of death covered by ECM slinking around to ambush the other team before they know what's happening, a stand-off between two long-ranged groups covered by ECM to prevent missile lock or a group of one or more mechs sneaking around under ECM to capture a base. Nearly every match can be summed up as one of these three things, or some combination thereof. Notice how ECM is involved in all of them? I suppose there IS a sense of balance here, but do you really want ECM dumbing down the game to this simple hide-and-seek hunt?

Sure, I've "adapted" to ECM. I can deal with it. Why does the capability to handle something mean it's properly balanced? And you keep claiming every other opinion against ECM's current implementation is unreasonable, a lie, etc. Where's your reasoning to this aside from "they just have to adapt"? If I'm guilty of making unfounded opinions and stating them as fact, then you're likely even worse.

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

If they're good Light pilots, yes. Thing is, good Light pilots use Jenners. There's really little point in using anything else if you have the skill to use SRMs at 150kph.

Not anymore they don't. Good light pilots realize the ability to be immune to streaks, which makes hunting them down relatively trivial, is too powerful to pass up.

[Kyone Akashi]

Vlad Ward, on 04 February 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

If they're good Light pilots, yes. Thing is, good Light pilots use Jenners. There's really little point in using anything else if you have the skill to use SRMs at 150kph.

In that case the game seems to have a drastic shortage of good Light pilots right now.
But regardless of how connection quality would affect a pilot's accuracy, is it good that there is a 'Mech which is essentially an "easymode model", whereas new players should be discouraged from piloting any other Light?

Personally, I found the SRM4 to be dreadfully inaccurate. It certainly feels more useful than the Streak-launcher I used to carry, but due to the shotgun spread it just does not make up for my opponent's 4-6 missiles that will hit always. Maybe I should not use the JR7-K but rather the D with its two launchers, but in that case, are you saying the JR7-K is useless and redundant compared to the D and F? I would like to believe not.

Coralld, on 04 February 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

You can still dumb fire LRMs and SSRMs sure, which needs to be implimented in MWO, but I was regarding the missile lock.

Technically, neither LRMs nor SSRMs even use lock in the tabletop, which is why they are not jammed, which is why ECM does not alter their accuracy.

Streak missiles are, from what I have read, just normal SRMs with a launcher that has been modified to fire only when a hit is "guaranteed". The missiles won't magically fly circles and allow you to launch them even when the target is not directly in front of you like they do in MWO.

[MegaBusta]

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

As for LRMs and SSRMs, they can still be used against ECM-protected 'Mechs in the TT, if perhaps only because those weapons are not even guided there but only in MWO. Also, the Guardian suite does mess with radar, etc.

LRMs are guided in TT, SSRMs aren't. They basically are supposed to be running a check that goes like "if I fire my srms now, will they all hit?" if they would it lets the pilot fire, if not, they will not fire when the pilot wants.

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Realistically speaking, if a unit shows up on someone's sensor in any way, then you should also be able to target them. You just won't see who it is, or the extent of their damages, or what weapons they carry.

This is how I've been arguing ECM should be working for a while now. You should still be able to detect them, but you should get no information about them. Hell, throw in missile lock denial as well, just for kicks. But if I have an ally looking at an enemy on the other side of a hill and he's targeted them, I shoudl at least be able to know he's targeted SOMETHING.

[Buzzkillin]

Where is the "ECM does not affect me because I don't use lock ons" option? You're shooting at me, I'm going to shoot back.

[Vlad Ward]

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

In that case the game seems to have a drastic shortage of good Light pilots right now.
But regardless of how connection quality would affect a pilot's accuracy, is it good that there is a 'Mech which is essentially an "easymode model", whereas new players should be discouraged from piloting any other Light?

Personally, I found the SRM4 to be dreadfully inaccurate. It certainly feels more useful than the Streak-launcher I used to carry, but due to the shotgun spread it just does not make up for my opponent's 4-6 missiles that will hit always. Maybe I should not use the JR7-K but rather the D with its two launchers, but in that case, are you saying the JR7-K is useless and redundant compared to the D and F? I would like to believe not.

The JR7-K is the JR7-D Lite. It can mount an SRM6 instead of 2 SRM4s in exchange for a heat sink or two.

And yes, there is a dreadful shortage of good Light pilots in the game right now. Many of the old Light Aces from CBT got sick of playing them during OBT because of Lagshield Easy-mode. Likewise, the Lagshield prevented any new OBT pilots from learning how to pilot effectively.

There are "easymode" models for every weight class in the game. When players get good enough, they graduate from them and move on to something that's harder to use but can perform at a higher maximum level.

[Kyone Akashi]

MegaBusta, on 04 February 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

LRMs are guided in TT

Really? Hum, I thought they would become guided only with Artemis.

Sumimasen!

MegaBusta, on 04 February 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

This is how I've been arguing ECM should be working for a while now. You should still be able to detect them, but you should get no information about them. Hell, throw in missile lock denial as well, just for kicks.

I'd rather not have missile lock denial - disabling it would solve the ECM+SSRM controversy instantly, I think, retaining/re-establishing these 'Mechs capability as a disruption platform and thus a "force multiplier" (a role they are currently rarely employed in) rather than the easiest Light hunters.

But also disrupting IFF and allowing teammates to target each other (and not seeing who is who!) would certainly make the game interesting!

[Koningswulf]

I have no problem at all with the ECM, It gives the game more tactical depth and also make some weapons like LRM and SSrm some thought before picking them. ECM is very good but in no way is it OP. It is the skill of the pilot, his weapons and his group that makes the kill not the ECM. Adapt and learn I say.

That said I wouldnt mind having the ECM work as in the TT but I dont find it OP.

[Orzorn]

Koningswulf, on 04 February 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

also make some weapons like LRM and SSrm some thought before picking them.

I'm not seeing the thought here.

Its either "I am taking LRMs and TAG" or "I'm not taking LRMs at all." Its either "I'm taking SSRMs and ECM" or "I'm not taking SSRMs at all". You can't make a clever decision like taking TAG and SSRMs, because TAG doesn't work in 180 meters (you might see TAG and SSRMs on a Commando 2D, so they can get stronger locks), and you're not likely to be able to keep a 140 kp/h Raven from staying as close to your as it pleases. You don't see LRMs as a support item anymore, like a single LRM 10 on a Dragon, or a set of LRMs on a Centurion. All or nothing.

I just don't see what diversity it creates. I really do not.

Edited by Orzorn, 04 February 2013 - 02:08 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

It doesn't create diversity. I've been playing an LRM boat Cent (2 x LRM 15's) and a SSRM boat Cent (3 x SSRM 2's) the last few days, it's basically...

If they have ECM, I'm pretty much doing sub 200 damage. And if I break 100 It's because they were really dumb.

If they don't have ECM, I'm pretty much doing above 500 damage, and if I do less it's because it was a pre-made or a smart PUG group that FF'd me early.

But it's not more fun, it's just...annoying. Because it's not as if ECM just limits my weapons, it negates them pretty much completely.

And I've played every Cent variation possible, From normal load out's, to SRM6 boats, to a 3 Large Laser Mini-Awesome. I mean I love me some Cent's, but it does not make me diversify more.

There are probably two versions of the Centurion that are really worthwhile in every game at this point.

[Coralld]

MegaBusta, on 04 February 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

This is how I've been arguing ECM should be working for a while now. You should still be able to detect them, but you should get no information about them.

Kyone Akashi, on 04 February 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

But also disrupting IFF and allowing teammates to target each other (and not seeing who is who!) would certainly make the game interesting!

Well there was another E-War decide in other mechwarrior games that we could make work like this, the IFF Jammer. And like how ECM can only be mounted onto certain mechs in MWO, make it so that the IFF Jammer can be mounted onto certain mechs as well, like one of the Jenners, Raven (Raven is suppose to be an E-War monster any way) and from there make it so that some of the more crappier mech variants can mount the IFF Jammer, then they would have a purpose in life.

Edited by Coralld, 04 February 2013 - 02:32 PM.

[Orzorn]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 04 February 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

It doesn't create diversity. I've been playing an LRM boat Cent (2 x LRM 15's) and a SSRM boat Cent (3 x SSRM 2's) the last few days, it's basically...

If they have ECM, I'm pretty much doing sub 200 damage. And if I break 100 It's because they were really dumb.

If they don't have ECM, I'm pretty much doing above 500 damage, and if I do less it's because it was a pre-made or a smart PUG group that FF'd me early.

But it's not more fun, it's just...annoying. Because it's not as if ECM just limits my weapons, it negates them pretty much completely.

And I've played every Cent variation possible, From normal load out's, to SRM6 boats, to a 3 Large Laser Mini-Awesome. I mean I love me some Cent's, but it does not make me diversify more.

There are probably two versions of the Centurion that are really worthwhile in every game at this point.

You know this is a result of two things, one or the other can go and it would help a lot:
ECM blocks missiles. No need to elaborate on that, as this entire thread is about it.

LRMs are slower than molasses at Christmas time. Super slow. 100 m/s slow. At a measly 500 meters it still takes 5 seconds for LRMs to hit their target.

Does that sound like the kind of weapon system you can effectively dumb fire at anything moving over 64 kp/h and really hit?

If ECM stays in its current state, I'd like to see LRMs increased in speed, but drop a bit of damage. Thomas' upcoming pattern update will likely increase their damage anyways, especially with Artemis (which ECM counters anyways), so they may very well be in for a slight nerf in damage anyways, but the increased speed would actually make dumb firing them more of a possiblity.

5. Whole. Seconds. That is a long time to wait for a weapon to strike.

[Accursed Richards]

MischiefSC, on 04 February 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

I get the concept that you're trying to put forward, but here's the thing.

ECM is 1.5 tons. It blocks all information gathering, missile and streak locks. It disrupts all enemy locking and targeting information. Not having it on your team puts you at a huge disadvantage, having 2 or more of them is pretty telling especially in competitive play. How competitive is a team that doesn't use LRMs? Can still be very competitive. How about a team that has no ECM? Not competitive.

It's imbalanced. Clown-shoes style ridiculously imbalanced. You can attempt to justify this in a metagame fashion about how it's not that bad if you're playing on an organized team for competitive play but that's a tiny percentage of the games players. Are you saying that everyone else should just quit?

And why, of all the systems, is ECM the do-anything one? I don't think even the most hardcore defenders of ECM could say with a straight face that BAP is equally powerful, or that NARC is twice as powerful (going by space / weight).

That's the part that's hard to understand. Regardless of whether ECM is too powerful, the other two systems are very cautiously designed, to the point where they're usually overlooked. And then ECM has an absolute laundry list of powers, and rather than remove any of them, we're seeing very cautious changes to unrelated bits of equipment. For what you sacrifice vs what you gain, ECM is an absolute no-brainer choice for every built that can take it, unlike nearly every other piece of kit out there. Why was the bar set so high when releasing ECM, and why is it such a sacred cow that can't ever be directly nerfed to bring it in line with other equipment?

[Eddrick]

ECM doesn't bother me.

Scan with your eyes, keep track of where friendlies are, relay battle plan at start of battle, and carry TAG if relying on a weapon that requiers a lock.

It's also, easyer with premade groups: Having your team have the same unique paint job makes things easyer and VOIP helps, too. Have someone carry TAG if one of the members uses a weapon that requiers a lock.

ECM does make things harder. But, not impossible to deal with.

For anyone that can't or refuses to do any of this: LETS HEAR IT FOR SENSOR DEPENDANCY!

[DocBach]

Another factor to consider is a new player who's choice of 'Mech is restricted to trial designs. Depending on the week you might find that the 'Mechs you are stuck using have more then half their weapons ineffective on the battlefield due to the proliferation of an ECM system that completely negates them.

Sure, we can argue it at a competitive standpoint, and from the view of the end game, but what about the players who haven't even thought about that level yet, who are trying to just learn the game? I've tried to introduce coworkers, friends, and family, and none have stuck around or put money into the game because of the ECM implementation. I tried to convince them that once they got to the level where they could own their own 'Mech they'd be able to deal with it better, but all of them found the process too painfully aggravating to play long enough to do so.

[MischiefSC]

ECM only makes the game slightly harder for very experienced players, it makes it considerably harder for newer players.

Again, a force multiplier. A disproportionate one. It's a tool designed to increase the advantage that organized and experienced players have over inexperienced, disorganized players. So much so that even tabletop games designed to let players play against NPCs and thus get considerable, imbalanced buffs don't do anything like that.

This is quite possibly one of the ten worst ideas I've seen in any social product ever and I've seen a lot of them. Alright, unfair, but in the context of a F2P game it's pretty high up the list. That's really what it comes down to. For ECM to be developed and put into play in the form it is with the idea that it's 'operating as planned' implies that the developers who put it there are creating a game based on the idea of older, more experienced players absolutely and brutally dominating newer players. It's designed to disproportionately benefit about 10 to 20% of the games population over everyone else. It's inherently a 'OR ELSE' tool. Join or else. Join the ECM cycle or get dominated by it. It exponentially increases the benefits of VOIP organization and teamwork.

Designing a game around the idea of effectively punishing new players for joining and forcing players into competitive team play to avoid playing at a steep, disproportionate disadvantage....

Really?

@Vlad;

You didn't answer my prior question - should people who are not intending to get into competitive league play as part of a well organized team not play MWO? That the game is designed specifically to punish them for not doing so? Is MWO intended as a hardcore only need apply sort of game? If so that's fine but shouldn't you make that clear up front? Also, if so, why all the effort to shut down any of the more casual avenues of play?

[Ashnod]

Coralld, on 04 February 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Then some one screwed up on the lore because that's not what ECM does.

Also, Angels ECM only has increased range, can not have its jamming signal picked up by BAP, and when switched to ECCM can counter two ECM mechs.

You are correct that it can create ghost images though.

http://www.sarna.net...Angel_ECM_Suite
"The Angel ECM Suite represents a great advance in ECM technology from the standard Guardian model. Within its 6 hex radius of effect, the Angel suite completely blocks the following systems on enemy units: Artemis IV, Artemis V, Beagle Active Probes, Bloodhound Active Probes and their Clan equivalents, C3 Master Computers and C3 Slaves, Streak Missile Launchers and Narc missile beacons. Streak missiles may be fired at units affected by the device, but they function as standard missiles.
When using ECCM rules, the Angel ECM Suite counts as two ECM/ECCM units (depending on how it is set) for the purposes of determining the ratio of ECM to ECCM in a given area."

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ECM

"An Electronic Countermeasure (or ECM) Suite covers the area around the unit on which it is employed, disrupting sensors and communications. ECM Suites exist for BattleMechs, Battle Armor, Combat Vehicles, and AeroSpace Fighters."

http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite


"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3]
The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2]
The Clans used the Guardian as the basis for their own ECM Suite, which is lighter and more compact than the Inner Sphere model but functions identically. The Draconis Combine used the Guardian as the basis for their experimental Angel ECM Suite."

Only thing about guided weaponry though is on tabletop it doesn't actually affect it at all besides canceling out Artemis.


And also from the tech manual for anyone wondering why guardian doesn't affect friendly units.

"Around the end of the Reunification War, Johnston Industries
(a Terran Hegemony company, working in partnership with Yelm
Weapons of Fletcher) debuted the Guardian ECM suite on the newly
deployed Nightshade VTOL. This broad-spectrum jamming and
electronic countermeasure system revolutionized electronic warfare
(EW). In a day when most communications and targeting systems
had grown accustomed to a battlefield flooded by conventional
electronic noise and counter-noise, the Guardian was powerful and
smart enough to scramble all hostile electronics within a spherical
“bubble” roughly 180 meters across. The Guardian could even adapt to
and scatter contemporary EW packages like the Beagle Active Probe,
Narc Missile Beacon and Artemis IV—all while simultaneously keeping
friendly channels and targeting enhancers clear.
Even today, the Guardian’s recovered technology remains highly
adaptable, not only capable of recognizing and countering the EW features
of its Star League counterparts but also newer technologies such
as the C3 and C3i systems. The Capellan Confederation has expanded
on the Guardian’s utility with their new stealth armor system, a new
role that will assure this powerful piece of technology a place on the
battlefi eld for the foreseeable future.
Predictably, the refi ned (and name-brand free) Clan version of the
Guardian achieves the same effects with a third less weight and half
as much bulk. Though the technology was largely in decline for a time
among Kerensky’s children, their return to the Inner Sphere and the
growing preponderance of EW systems has prompted more and more
Clan machines to hit the field armed with ECM systems."


There's plenty of examples with in the books of ECM screwing with a mechs sensors and other functions, as well in mech commander 1, 2 and MW4 with it affecting sensor ranges.

Currently though it shouldn't completely shut out guidance systems / targeting.. if anything for gameplay balance, perhaps a delay on how long it takes to target a mech from range would work better.

Edited by Ashnod, 04 February 2013 - 03:10 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

MWO doesn't need to be designed as an "Elite only" game for its balance to be heavily influenced by the competitive sector.

Most games are balanced at the tournament level, not at the Bronze League level.

This strawman about throwing newbie sheep to the proverbial experienced wolves is getting out of hand. ELO should, if working correctly, prevent new players from running into these competitive players until they're good enough to handle them.

ECM makes the game more interesting for experienced players fighting other experienced players.

ECM probably won't even show up in brand new player matches because Stock and Trial variants don't come with it (bar the otherwise-awful stock RVN-3L), and even in the cases that it does the players involved won't have the experience necessary to use ECM effectively anyways.

You seem to be forgetting that any casual player, post-ELO, is just going to be facing another casual player who is just as likely to give 0 craps about mounting ECM on their own Mechs. Casual players are the most likely to avoid using whatever they consider "Cheese", leaving their whole "Rating Tier" relatively tame.

[Ashnod]

Accursed Richards, on 04 February 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

And why, of all the systems, is ECM the do-anything one? I don't think even the most hardcore defenders of ECM could say with a straight face that BAP is equally powerful, or that NARC is twice as powerful (going by space / weight).

That's the part that's hard to understand. Regardless of whether ECM is too powerful, the other two systems are very cautiously designed, to the point where they're usually overlooked. And then ECM has an absolute laundry list of powers, and rather than remove any of them, we're seeing very cautious changes to unrelated bits of equipment. For what you sacrifice vs what you gain, ECM is an absolute no-brainer choice for every built that can take it, unlike nearly every other piece of kit out there. Why was the bar set so high when releasing ECM, and why is it such a sacred cow that can't ever be directly nerfed to bring it in line with other equipment?

Sadly BAP sucks currently because we don't have typical mech radar, where say.. you can only detect things in the nearby area and depending if there is hills / heavy metal deposits / buildings / high heat / magnetic **** interfering with it, Also everyone can detect if there being jammed by ECM currently with the low signal shenanigans(a feature that only BAP really should be able to do).

Beagle on the other hand would be able to detect every mech within like... 1000+ meters on the map regardless of hills, caves, line of sight, magnetic issues, heavy metal deposits, massive city building's if there shut down etc.. and would let you know if your being jammed / unable to detect in an area due to interference from ECM, as well as decreasing lock on times and mech information like it does currently.

Edited by Ashnod, 04 February 2013 - 03:18 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

I like the 148 straight out liars saying ecm is fine lol

[DocBach]

Ashnod, on 04 February 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

quotes from Sarna

On quoting Sarna.net - it's a great source for a good outline of a system, but it doesn't contain the word for word descriptions from the rule books or tech manuals to avoid copyright violations. The description from Sarna is a shortened version of the description from Technical Readout 3050, but it lacks a very, very important line:

"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors, thus protecting all units in a radius of up to 180 meters by projecting a "cloak" to its enemies. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading and prevents identification. By the time the enemy enters visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but by this time most pilots rely on their own eyes to track the opposition."

With that line, someone could interpret how ECM should function quite differently if they just read the Sarna entry.

Edited by DocBach, 04 February 2013 - 03:27 PM.