233 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

Roland, on 07 February 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

But the reality is, only light mechs can currently even FIELD streaks now, with the exception of the Atlas DDC. It used to be that lots of mechs carried streaks to swat light mechs, but that's not the case any more... because there's a good chance that the light mech you encounter is gonna have ECM, so unless you have ECM too your streaks are useless.

Folks dropping with ECM-carrying team-mates. Also I've seen enough Centurions wandering around with streaks loaded to notice the pattern, they're very low weight weapons if you only take a ton or two ammo so they're easy to use as 'backups' if you can shift that extra tonnage onto bigger 'main gun' weapons.

[Shismar]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 February 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Folks dropping with ECM-carrying team-mates. Also I've seen enough Centurions wandering around with streaks loaded to notice the pattern, they're very low weight weapons if you only take a ton or two ammo so they're easy to use as 'backups' if you can shift that extra tonnage onto bigger 'main gun' weapons.

Exactly. I try to have 1-2 streaks on any build I drive, even if it cannot mount ECM. Since I drop solo, I have of course some chance they will be dead weight. As ECM usage has declined sharply in Pugs though, it works quite well. Since my ping is 180-200ms, it really is my best chance to kill Jenners.

Some premades even had Raven kill teams consisting of a streak.Cat and a ECM Raven or Commando working together. Those ruined more than one drop for me while leveling my Ravens.

Other light mechs are much less of a problem to fight without streaks. Maybe it is their different profile or because they are usually slower but Commandos and Ravens are easier to kill by far. Jenners are the problem and there is a reason they used to be the light mech of choice before ECM. They are still great mechs. I don't drive one all the time but when I do I am having fun.

[ElLocoMarko]

I don't get to reminisce about collisions as that was before my time. But having streaks NOT U-Turn and fly through the shooters chest to hit targets behind them would be a reasonable start.

Impose a 5-10 meter straight flight and then impose a minimum turning radius. A poorly fired streak could miss or perhaps strike a side torso or arm. In open areas a near miss might turn into loopy missiles. Oh, if you near missed from a lower elevation and the missile used a greedy turn algorithm... you could loop upwards and back down onto heads... that would be an awesome trick-shot.

[Kyone Akashi]

I agree with Larkis in that Light 'Mech gameplay is severely afflicted by how Streak missiles work, especially when coupled with ECM. However, personally I would not touch the aiming radius/speed. For one thing, it would require having several targeting reticules for those 'Mechs that have launchers in the torso and in the arms. Also, it just "feels right" to have the reticule move a little faster than the torso, from an interface immersion point of view, if that makes any sense. The torso has its own crosshair not because it feeds some info into some smart missile launcher whose projectiles can change their flight path as needed, but simply to show where fixed weapons will hit.

What really needs tuning is the missiles' movement. They need a fixed angle at which they leave the launcher, a limited turn radius, and the possibility to "lose lock-on" when the missile's flightpath passes the target by such an angle that it starts to move away rather than following.

In addition, it could also help to have SSRMs require a re-lock after each salvo in order to increase the difficulty of keeping a fast-moving 'Mech targeted, as locking on is arguably somewhat harder than just keeping the lock. In the TT, pilots need to roll for targeting for each salvo as well.

Lastly, by having Streaks be un-affected by ECM, this would "level the playing field" at least somewhat by allowing any pilot so inclined to equip and use this weapon system. The Guardian suite does not affect SSRMs in the tabletop, and I do not see why it is necessary for MWO to do it differently in this regard either.
Together with loss of perma-lock and turn radius, this might just make SSRM2 or SRM4 an actual choice rather than a no-brainer even for dedicated Light hunters.

More realism and greater adherence to the tabletop whilst simultaneously improving gameplay balance. What's more to want?


Also, lol @ all those CB Atlas drivers who think that Light gameplay should consist solely of "run into each other so your team can get an easy kill"

[Zylo]

VonRunnegen, on 07 February 2013 - 05:19 AM, said:

(I'm loving how Zylo saying lights are still too good is a Craven pilot.... who doesn't have to deal with any of the difficulties of driving a 'normal' light like the other team knowing when you're about to come round the corner, LRM dodging, SSRM dodging, losing map vision, losing use of own SSRMs...)

If it were just Jenners being disadvantaged that would be one thing but its every non-ecm light. Yes, a 6 med-las Jenner with a much more skilled pilot might manage to take a bad 3L pilot out, but they'll be heavily damaged and in any case if you need to be loads better than the other guy its just stupid.

Knockdowns coming back in would be nice, or at least decent amounts of collision damage, but has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

I chose the Raven 3L with the specific purpose of proving that lights were all OP when collisions were removed. My target was the strongest pre-ECM light - the Jenner. I felt it was necessary to target the dominant light mech when collisions were removed and all lights instantly became OP when they could go anywhere with no fear of being knocked down. At the time their lag shielding made them more difficult to hit than they are now.

All lights need to be balanced by returning collision knockdowns to the game. After that is done, then we can talk about fixing broken SSRM2's. The lack of collision knockdowns is the whole reason streaks became such a common weapon. SSRM2's are the easiest way to deal with light mechs so many players run builds that allow them to use SSRM2's. Due to ECM this limits these players a bit in their mech choices.

Jenner pilots had it too good, the other lights were the easy kills for Jenner pilots in the days before ECM. Now the Jenners are the prey rather than they hunters and I see many of their pilots whining about the ECM+SSRM2 lights being OP. It sounds very similar to the way the pilots of Commandos and Ravens complained that the Jenner was too powerful during the pre-ECM days.

[Zylo]

Kyone Akashi, on 07 February 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

Lastly, by having Streaks be un-affected by ECM, this would "level the playing field" at least somewhat by allowing any pilot so inclined to equip and use this weapon system. The Guardian suite does not affect SSRMs in the tabletop, and I do not see why it is necessary for MWO to do it differently in this regard either.
Together with loss of perma-lock and turn radius, this might just make SSRM2 or SRM4 an actual choice rather than a no-brainer even for dedicated Light hunters.

More realism and greater adherence to the tabletop whilst simultaneously improving gameplay balance. What's more to want?


Also, lol @ all those CB Atlas drivers who think that Light gameplay should consist solely of "run into each other so your team can get an easy kill"

Yes, lets make the Catapult A1 Streak cat popular again by making streaks work even though the target has ECM - Brilliant!

Actually I sort of hope this happens as Streak Cats are less OP than lights that can't be knocked down.

[Kyone Akashi]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

When collision knockdowns return I might support some changes to SSRM2's but for now I just enjoy watching Ravens and Commandos pick apart Jenners. For some reason it just makes me happy watching that since the Jenner was too strong for too long. [...] I chose the Raven 3L with the specific purpose of proving that lights were all OP when collisions were removed.

Nonsense. Back in CB, collisions in combat did not even occur that often - until other Lights started to abuse them to purposefully knock an enemy out of action rather than actually fight them with weapons. Unfortunately, the knockdown tactic became notably more common shortly before the mechanic was removed.
Back in CB, the netcode was also much more stable than now (likely due to the much smaller number of players), so I don't see how you could even draw a connection between the two.

I also find it interesting how you attempt to prove that all Lights are "OP" by picking one of two very specific models with very specific equipment, where just about everyone agrees that the issue stems from ECM + SSRMs and how it performs best against its own weight class?

If you wanted to demonstrate OPness of Lights, you should have picked something that is more successful against Heavies or Assaults - but I doubt that is your actual agenda. From how you have worded your posts in this thread, it just seems like you have a serious "hate" on Jenners, possibly because they used to get behind your back when you were still driving something notably larger and less agile but lacked an escort to protect your rear - and now you are utilizing one of the most broken builds in the game to vent your pent-up frustration. I can only hope you come around again some day.

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

Yes, lets make the Catapult A1 Streak cat popular again by making streaks work even though the target has ECM - Brilliant!

With amending SSRM turn rate and re-lock requirement, it could actually work out nicely. It is certainly less broken than the current situation, for at least a Catapult is not able to move that fast, meaning one actually has a chance to escape.

[AEgg]

Zylo, on 07 February 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

I chose the Raven 3L with the specific purpose of proving that lights were all OP when collisions were removed. My target was the strongest pre-ECM light - the Jenner. I felt it was necessary to target the dominant light mech when collisions were removed and all lights instantly became OP when they could go anywhere with no fear of being knocked down. At the time their lag shielding made them more difficult to hit than they are now.

All lights need to be balanced by returning collision knockdowns to the game. After that is done, then we can talk about fixing broken SSRM2's. The lack of collision knockdowns is the whole reason streaks became such a common weapon. SSRM2's are the easiest way to deal with light mechs so many players run builds that allow them to use SSRM2's. Due to ECM this limits these players a bit in their mech choices.

Jenner pilots had it too good, the other lights were the easy kills for Jenner pilots in the days before ECM. Now the Jenners are the prey rather than they hunters and I see many of their pilots whining about the ECM+SSRM2 lights being OP. It sounds very similar to the way the pilots of Commandos and Ravens complained that the Jenner was too powerful during the pre-ECM days.

The argument isn't about lights vs other classes. That's a completely separate discussion.

As it stands right now, if you're in a light mech and aren't running SSRMs, you're most likely going to die if you encounter a light mech that is. Mostly because they don't have to aim and can fire at a significantly higher angle (180 degree streaks is very common, 90ish is the norm.).

Lights with streaks are arguably worse against mediums and heavies than a standard armament. But to another light without streaks the appropriate response is "run away". I guess that's sort-of balanced, but lights are faster than other chassis and thus more likely to encounter other lights, making streaks a better choice most of the time. And streaks aren't that much weaker than lasers against mediums and heavies (ballistics generally aren't an option for lights, obviously).

[Vlad Ward]

Streaks are fine. Lights are supposed to be the hardest class to pilot at top tier level, and they are. The Jenner is the top tier Light. If you don't have the skill to pilot it effectively (which includes the ability to smash enemy Lights with 2xSRM4), the Streak Raven has some nice, shiny training wheels on it.

Everyone knew Netcode fixes would produce a cacophony of tears as substandard Light pilots who never had to learn how to drive or how to shoot were thrown back into the real world. How this thread has gone on for 8 pages is beyond me.

[Gaan Cathal]

Vlad Ward, on 07 February 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Streaks are fine. Lights are supposed to be the hardest class to pilot at top tier level, and they are. The Jenner is the top tier Light. If you don't have the skill to pilot it effectively (which includes the ability to smash enemy Lights with 2xSRM4), the Streak Raven has some nice, shiny training wheels on it.

Everyone knew Netcode fixes would produce a cacophony of tears as substandard Light pilots who never had to learn how to drive or how to shoot were thrown back into the real world. How this thread has gone on for 8 pages is beyond me.

Trying to sound pro-gamer, while arguing that aiming is too damn hard.

[Vlad Ward]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 February 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Trying to sound pro-gamer, while arguing that aiming is too damn hard.

Reading is an important skill.

I all but came out and said that any Jenner pilot having issues with Ravens needs to learn to aim.

[Kousagi]

I do find it slightly funny that someone says that the removal of collisions is what made lights so powerful... As kyone points out, they didn't happen often back then, cause people piloting lights were mostly people that knew what the heck they were doing in a light mech.

Though back then SSRM's were not even that good as light mech killing weapon either. The best light mech setup was a Jenner with 6 small lasers, it was a monster. It could easily beat a Jenner with 2 ssrm's without taking much damage. This is cause Streaks didn't spread ( they only hit center mass) and could miss cause they didn't have that tight of a turn rate.

After the lagshield got bad is when lights got OP.... Then Streaks got their 100% hit rate buff, and they went from being so-so to god-like. Thats about the time Light mechs died out and the streak-cat rose to power. Yes streak cats were nasty before this buff, but they were not common like after it. Then ECM came out, and light mechs could once again roam the battle without getting 1-2 shot by streaks, but in the process gave all the power to who ever could carry both ECM and Streak.

Edited by Kousagi, 07 February 2013 - 03:41 PM.

[PropagandaWar]

p4r4g0n, on 07 February 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

Collision damage will return but are you certain knockdowns will?

Yeah knockdowns are coming back.

[Memory]

am i bad person for reading the OP in the voice of Apu from the Quickie Mart?

[Gaan Cathal]

Vlad Ward, on 07 February 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

I all but came out and said that any Jenner pilot having issues with Ravens needs to learn to aim.

Top tier play isn't the only player PGI need to consider, frankly, and while I hit other lights fine with my SRMs, before the level of skill required to use them (which isn't that high, really, I'm not claiming to be top tier at all) there's a total plateau where it doesn't matter how bad a pilot is, he can outgun another light by facerolling streaks. Doesn't even have to be another light, anything with three+missile hardpoints can and at some point will run streaks. And that's with ECM jamming locks, once that's removed they'll be all over the shop. In your D-DC and getting harassed by a light you just aren't good enough to hit? No problem! Tell yourself it's the lagshield and lock on with those SSRMs! Hell, they're already doing this.

I get killed in all my Ravens, including the 3L, quite regularly, by quite a lot of things. I have no problem with dying to 4/6PPC Stalkers, to laserboats, to boomcats. All these things require aiming. Hell, even the splatcat requires more skill to use than a streak launcher with the current setup.

[Kyone Akashi]

Vlad Ward, on 07 February 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

I all but came out and said that any Jenner pilot having issues with Ravens needs to learn to aim.

So from this point onward, I guess that means we can use "L2Aim" for any pilot who complains about not being able to hit Lights? Okay...

But really, one 'Mech "needs to aim", the other scores a guaranteed 10+ damage to CT/RT/LT every 3.5 seconds. You really think this is working as intended? That a Scout should have it easier defeating a Skirmisher than the other way around?

And this is leaving aside the little detail that only one out of three Jenner variants can load two missile launchers, to address the possibility of a counter (which some pilots can admittedly pull off, or at least so I've heard).

There is a reason those 3Ls are boating Streaks rather than SRMs. If it is not the netcode, it is a Light 'Mechs intended advantage of having a small profile and high velocity, the difficulty to hit further enhanced by uneven terrain during a high speed chase.
This also happens to be the reason you see few Lights aside from a certain two models in the matches these days. Did you not notice? Keep an eye out for the chassis in the after-match scoreboard.

[Zylo]

Kyone Akashi, on 07 February 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

Nonsense. Back in CB, collisions in combat did not even occur that often - until other Lights started to abuse them to purposefully knock an enemy out of action rather than actually fight them with weapons. Unfortunately, the knockdown tactic became notably more common shortly before the mechanic was removed.
Back in CB, the netcode was also much more stable than now (likely due to the much smaller number of players), so I don't see how you could even draw a connection between the two.

I also find it interesting how you attempt to prove that all Lights are "OP" by picking one of two very specific models with very specific equipment, where just about everyone agrees that the issue stems from ECM + SSRMs and how it performs best against its own weight class?

If you wanted to demonstrate OPness of Lights, you should have picked something that is more successful against Heavies or Assaults - but I doubt that is your actual agenda. From how you have worded your posts in this thread, it just seems like you have a serious "hate" on Jenners, possibly because they used to get behind your back when you were still driving something notably larger and less agile but lacked an escort to protect your rear - and now you are utilizing one of the most broken builds in the game to vent your pent-up frustration. I can only hope you come around again some day.

With amending SSRM turn rate and re-lock requirement, it could actually work out nicely. It is certainly less broken than the current situation, for at least a Catapult is not able to move that fast, meaning one actually has a chance to escape.

I actually used to knock lights over all the time in my Atlas in Closed beta by running a larger engine and doing what they never expected - backing up without turning around which often left them on the ground to die when I lined up my weapons as they were standing up. It was rare for me to ever drop alone so working as a team our lights would often crash into the enemy lights if the enemy lights were close to our team. Our lights often gave up the kill vs other lights but at that point they were free to go pick on easy targets like enemy missile boats or a slow assault that wandered away from the group. It was simply a tactical move for the team to gain the advantage as fast as possible.

My agenda playing the Raven 3L was simply to prove that the lack of collisions made lights OP. I chose the most effective light to make this point which happened to be the Raven 3L. While my primary targets were Jenners I also targeted Streak cats, all medium mechs, and anything slow that wasn't a DDC with streaks.

I actually play a pretty good mix of mechs - Atlas, Stalker, Cataphract, Catapult, Centurion, Hunchback, Raven and I only run the raven now if another member in the group wants to run as a pair of light mechs. While it was fun for a while I needed to make sure I could run effective light-killers in all weight classes so I am currently playing with builds designed to eliminate lights as fast as possible. Lets just say SRM6's make this job very easy.

[Vlad Ward]

Gaan Cathal, on 07 February 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

In your D-DC and getting harassed by a light you just aren't good enough to hit? No problem! Tell yourself it's the lagshield and lock on with those SSRMs! Hell, they're already doing this.

Good Light pilots don't give D-DCs a chance to lock missiles. They should never have LOS on you, period.

Kyone Akashi, on 07 February 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

So from this point onward, I guess that means we can use "L2Aim" for any pilot who complains about not being able to hit Lights? Okay...

You could have stopped here, because (now that Netcode is significantly better) the answer is yes.

The reason you only see crutch Lights running around in the average match is that most of the old, CBT Light pilots quit the class because broken Netcode was so boring and, frankly, playing with broken Netcode never gave any incoming Light pilots the ability to learn how to play the class.

This thread is awful. SSRMs are only 5 damage, and Ravens are massive (for Lights) with absolutely no vertical mobility to speak of.

[Tempered]

Having run nothing but jenners exclusively up until about the beginning of january, I can tell you that Larkis and One medic Army are spot on in their assessments.

[One Medic Army]

Kousagi, on 07 February 2013 - 03:40 PM, said:

Though back then SSRM's were not even that good as light mech killing weapon either. The best light mech setup was a Jenner with 6 small lasers, it was a monster. It could easily beat a Jenner with 2 ssrm's without taking much damage. This is cause Streaks didn't spread ( they only hit center mass) and could miss cause they didn't have that tight of a turn rate.

Don't forget that right around the time streaks got 100% hit rate, PGI fixed a bug that had previously prevented streaks from applying full damage. Compared to earlier times streaks got a damage buff at about the same time they got 100% hit rate.