304 replies to this topic

[Zylo]

MischiefSC, on 13 February 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Once again, straw man argument. At 7 minutes have a single central location that can be camped for 90 seconds for a win to prevent this. Or have it activate when 1 side only has 2 or fewer mechs. There's a dozen mechanics to avoid this that are better than existing Assault capping mechanics.

Leave Assault in. If you like it, great. Enjoy it and have fun. In addition to that though a death match or even better complicated objective mode would be drastically better.

Not really a strawman argument when it already happens, in many games you can see light mechs running off to hide when they are the last remaining enemy even with caps in game. It's done to prevent the enemy from scoring another kill and forcing them to cap instead.

I would support the addition of another optional game mode with no way to cap. Of course you would see enemy lights doing exactly what I said they would do but at least you would never need to worry about caps right?

[Jman5]

For the last time Mischief and others. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SIT IN YOUR BASE TO STOP A CAP RUSH. However you do have to be willing to react to a single scout's information.

http://mwomercs.com/...68#entry1888368

Where do I say: "Sit in your base and defend until your eyes bleed"? I don't because it's not necessary to counter a cap rush. What is necessary is not being dummy and sprinting toward their capture point without lifting your head up for a second.

[anonymous175]

I don't think anyone enjoys the clap.

[DaPwnageMachine]

My team can stop base caps too. You know what we do? We camp next to our base with gauss mechs, AC20s, Large laser builds. We make no movements to attack the enemy base becuase we know we're gonna get at least 2 mechs to try to cap our base. Once we take them out that gives us an advantage to just roll the other team that just became shorthanded. Even though it brings me countless wins, I would rather not have to play like that just to avoid losing in the lamest way possible.

We don't need scout mechs, we already know that the other team isn't talking to each other and few of them are going to run off away from their team to try and "flank" our base.

Do you even know how boring it is when two teams decide to camp each other out just so that they cant be cappped from behind? .

Edited by DaPwnageMachine, 13 February 2013 - 03:52 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Zylo, on 13 February 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Not really a strawman argument when it already happens, in many games you can see light mechs running off to hide when they are the last remaining enemy even with caps in game. It's done to prevent the enemy from scoring another kill and forcing them to cap instead.

I would support the addition of another optional game mode with no way to cap. Of course you would see enemy lights doing exactly what I said they would do but at least you would never need to worry about caps right?

Strawman because it's already got a variety of solutions.

As I said, there are a dozen different ways to prevent that sort of thing in the closing of a one-sided match. I'd even go so far as to say that maybe being 'capped out' and still alive at the end of a TDM game would give you 0XP or something like that.

At the very least some sort of cap mechanic after 7 minutes when there are 2 or less mechs on one side.

See? Trying to pretend that capping in Assault exactly like it is can be the only alternative to rampant spider griefing is just... silly.

[MischiefSC]

Jman5, on 13 February 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

For the last time Mischief and others. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SIT IN YOUR BASE TO STOP A CAP RUSH. However you do have to be willing to react to a single scout's information.

http://mwomercs.com/...68#entry1888368

Where do I say: "Sit in your base and defend until your eyes bleed"? I don't because it's not necessary to counter a cap rush. What is necessary is not being dummy and sprinting toward their capture point without lifting your head up for a second.

Okay. Again.

Pugs. They don't follow orders if they don't want to. At no way and in no form, other than only playing in lights or fast mediums myself, can I ever actually be sure someone will respond to a base cap.

Also, if most of my team HATES the capping mechanic in Assault (and they typically do) then they just ignore it. They would rather lose but get some fighting in. They're not running for the enemy base they're looking for the enemy to fight.

So, once again. To clarify. Again. If you go cap. And nobody on the other team responds. It is not. IS NOT. Because. They don't understand. How capping works. How to do it. How to stop it. They do it. Because. They. Don't. Care. They are playing. To fight. Other mechs. Win/Loss. No longer. Means ANYTHING. To them. They. Would rather. LOSE. Than. Play. To a mechanic. They HATE.

It's the same reason you see 3Ls with no Streak missiles. They'd rather play at a disadvantage than participate in a mechanic they don't like.

The point is that they shouldn't be playing Assault. They should be playing Conquest, it's just counter-intuitive. You'd assume Assault was focused on fighting but it's not. Conquest is.

In assault though I still say you are wrong. Scouting is pointless. Yes, in River City you can see which way the other team went and decide to go meet them (bad idea unless you leave someone behind) or skirt them the other way and go for the cap rush.

The whole point I'm trying so hard to get through to you is that many people have absolutely no desire to win by capping. They'd rather lose. So when they chose to go the direction the other team goes to fight and someone still rushes for the cap they can either A) quit fighting which is what they're doing for fun and go do something un-fun or B ) ignore it and get some fighting in before the utterly irrelevant (to them) win/loss screen pops up to interrupt their having fun before they drop into another match to go fight again.

Lots of players would rather lose than win by capping or play to capping at all. It's not fun. They don't want to do it. They don't want to be forced to do it. So what you've accomplished is to make people apathetic to win/loss.

Hence, we need another game mode. I expect one is already on the way.

My point, as I've said before, is simply to point out that winning by capping is not some tactical master stroke. It is exploiting apathy. If the other team digs the cap/block cap tactics of Assault and sends people back or whatever, great. You guys play and have fun. I want you to. If they don't though it's because they didn't care. Not because you outwitted them.

[Zylo]

MischiefSC, on 13 February 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Strawman because it's already got a variety of solutions.

As I said, there are a dozen different ways to prevent that sort of thing in the closing of a one-sided match. I'd even go so far as to say that maybe being 'capped out' and still alive at the end of a TDM game would give you 0XP or something like that.

At the very least some sort of cap mechanic after 7 minutes when there are 2 or less mechs on one side.

See? Trying to pretend that capping in Assault exactly like it is can be the only alternative to rampant spider griefing is just... silly.

I doubt a player would care if they got 0 XP if the other team capped. At that point they are just trying to deny the other team the kill and they would be losing anyway. It's more the light pilot saying **** you, you're not going to score that 8th kill.

I think those who hate caps really need to agree on what they want - some seem to want NO cap features while you and probably some others would support limited cap features.

Your suggestion of a limited cap mechanic is pretty good evidence that even you think the last light mech on a team would do exactly what I described if caps were removed.

[MischiefSC]

Zylo, on 13 February 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

I doubt a player would care if they got 0 XP if the other team capped. At that point they are just trying to deny the other team the kill and they would be losing anyway. It's more the light pilot saying **** you, you're not going to score that 8th kill.

I think those who hate caps really need to agree on what they want - some seem to want NO cap features while you and probably some others would support limited cap features.

Your suggestion of a limited cap mechanic is pretty good evidence that even you think the last light mech on a team would do exactly what I described if caps were removed.

I would expect it to happen 1 time in 10 but that's too many.

I absolutely agree that you need mechanics to stop griefing. That's different than a base capping mechanic in and of itself as a method to win. A base cap to win mechanic devalues all other tactics as it's a guaranteed victory. It's like SSRMs, if you had SSRM6s why would you use anything else?

What do I want?

Cap locations that affect your rewards, win or lose. How about locations that if they are intact (not destroyed) at the end of the match you get a bonus to cbills/xp for each one of yours remaining and each enemy one destroyed. 2 or 3 per team. Then a single central position that if capped after 7 minutes regardless of people remaining equates to victory.

Even just that. A 'king of the hill' assault map. One central cap point that if someone holds it for 750 points worth (similar to conquest mechanic) they win. Each team has a separate running total so if it changes hands repeatedly it's not like a see-saw but an individual running total.

Make sense? The current Assault map reduces tactics to a single denominator. Getting to the other guys base before he gets to yours. Getting more people on his faster. It's a speed round design. The only reason every single Assault game doesn't play out that way is most people HATE the capping mechanic and would rather lose than go cap, so people wander off to find the enemy and fight.

So not everyone is playing Assault with the same goal and rules. This is less than ideal on a premade team and hugely frustrating on a pug team.

I have absolute faith that PGI has new things coming and coming soon. I'm just not going to pretend that Assault is some tactical maestros playground and a win by capping is a product of apathy, not tactical excellence. It's still a win, just not one to brag about.

[Jman5]

This is getting no where and mischief is apparently incapable of writing anything less than a short novel every time he posts. You keep playing conquest and I'll keep playing both.

And when the enemy team "chooses" not to scout and "chooses" not to respond to a base assault, I'll collect my free win and move on. Perhaps the next game will have a team that puts in an iota of effort into winning.

[Zylo]

The problem with the current cap mechanics is that they encourage out-capping the enemy rather than turning back to fight. The cap speed may be part of the problem as teams seem more interested in outcapping rather than stopping a cap.

Winning by cap isn't the best way to win in terms of C-bill gains but sometimes it's the only real way to turn around a fight that is going bad because a few pug players rushed off and died within the first 2min of the fight.

I'm sure the players who end up most upset when the enemy caps are the sync-dropping groups who planned on an easy kill win only to have that match end by the enemy capping their base.

[BlackSquirrel]

It's just annoying when you do a base swap match...

I would say it's a viable tactic to break up teams though.

[MischiefSC]

Jman5, on 13 February 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

This is getting no where and mischief is apparently incapable of writing anything less than a short novel every time he posts. You keep playing conquest and I'll keep playing both.

And when the enemy team "chooses" not to scout and "chooses" not to respond to a base assault, I'll collect my free win and move on. Perhaps the next game will have a team that puts in an iota of effort into winning.

If I can't help you understand that's fine. In a lot of ways I'm not arguing with you but for the sake of making a point clear to everyone else. If it makes you feel better to believe that people being apathetic about winning in Assault equates to you somehow making some brilliant tactical maneuver, well, shine on you crazy diamond. If training wheel matches are where you feel you're at your best that's cool too.

People get how to play Assault. You pride yourself on capitalizing on their not caring about the capping mechanic. I get that. Now that it's clear that you know that it's not that you 'out maneuvered' anyone, just capitalized on their apathy of the capping mechanic so there's no need for you to keep saying 'If you all were as cunning as me you'd know that capping is easy to stop'. That's not the argument. It never was.

[Rift Hawk]

The base capture can be used as a strategic method to split the enemy team. If you have a well coordinated team, you can use a single light capturing the enemy base to a huge advantage. It doesn't always work mind you, but when it does its a big advantage.

On the other hand, teams that just base rush and cap out are probably the stupidest players in the game. There is absolutely no point in doing it other than farming and raising your win:loss ratio. Either of those things should be extremely discouraged as there is very little point in either.

There is no point to farming in this game. If you can't play the game like a normal player then perhaps you shouldn't play it. Your ruining the experience for the other people dropping in the same match. There is nothing worse than two lights running in and capturing the enemy base immediately and ending the game in less than 3 minutes. The rest of your team is getting garbage xp and credits. Not to mention I play this game to shoot things. If i'm not getting a chance to shoot things, then its a waste of my ******* time.

Also, as it currently stands, your win:loss ratio means zero. Its a pointless statistic other than to give you the obnoxious ability to flaunt your E-peens by posting your stats as a sig in the forums.

My personal opinion here is that base capture should be disabled for the first five minutes of an Assault Match. This at least gives players the ability to actually play the game a little before some **** ends the game.

[Javok]

Assault has 1 too many bases for a match with only 8 per team, put just 1 cap in the middle of the map, cap all you want...

[Rift Hawk]

Javok, on 13 February 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Assault has 1 too many bases for a match with only 8 per team, put just 1 cap in the middle of the map, cap all you want...

+1 to this suggestion

[Mycrus]

I hate caps because it curbs my pugstomping fun

[Trev Firestorm]

DaPwnageMachine, on 13 February 2013 - 03:24 PM, said:

All the cap nubs in here are saying "You should have someone defending your base or you should play defensive if you don't wanna get capped" but they are also probably the same noobs who are gonna start complaining when teams finally lose thier minds and decide to just camp behind their base with AC20 Catapults, SRM6 Catapults, atlases, etc just so that they don't get capped anymore.

Teams of 8 camping each other out for 15 minutes straight? Yeah, that's exactly what is going to make people want to keep playing.

Capping is bad for the game, take it out completely. You have boxes to stand on in Conquest, we don't need them for assault anymore.

Because this has been a problem since June clearly . LEARN TO PLAY.

[Desist]

I dislike caps generally. I think the 1 cap point idea would be awesome.

I find that capping is actually worse in conquest. I tend to get a lot of pugs and premades that do nothing but run around avoiding the enemy and capping everything. They usually fail to tell the rest of the team that they don't plan on helping you fight or scout. You get rolled over by the entire enemy team and your team eventually wins because I try to make the enemy team work for their kill on me and it generally takes a while. Winning this way ****** me off though. I'd rather have a decent fight than get rolled and win by having a few guys playing Need For Speed: Most Wanted Mechwarrior.

This same kind of thing happens in Assault though. Almost the exact same thing except there's only one point for them to go to. They leave half of us to get rolled while they cap for the win. This happens less often then the Conquest version for me, but it's still pretty annoying.

On the receiving end of all of this, it's also annoying. I pug a lot and I've been noticing a tremendous amount of people running trial mechs and looking like they don't know what they're doing. I doubt they even know what caps are. They don't know their way around the map. Some of them look like they barely know how to move. Forget about targeting or using streaks/lrms. Most of them don't seem to know how to use a chatbox. Lots of stupid stuff happens. Like having a bunch of new light players that don't understand it's their job to protect against caps. And like I said they don't seem to know the chatbox exists either. Your team could be destroying the other team and suddenly one of the enemy light mechs breaks off to cap. So they're on the cap and everyone's thinking, "We have 2 or 3 light mechs. They look good. There's only 1 or 2 guys left to kill. Surely they're going back to prevent the cap." A minute or so later nobody has gone back and you lose via cap.

This capping bs happens 4/5ths of the time I play conquest and about 1/6th of the time I play assault. Yesterday, oddly, it happened to me, in assault, 6 games in a row. I was fairly pissed off. Only 1 of my 4 mechs is a light and I don't like playing it all the time. So it's not often I have much control over the objectives. I honestly don't have anything against capping in assault. The problem is, I'm playing an assault or heavy most of the time that has very little control over objectives and half of the team doesn't understand or care about capping. And as far as conquest goes. Apparently if you don't go fast, you shouldn't bother playing it. I've been called a noob quite a few times for actually wanting to fight in conquest and/or playing an assault.

I think just having a decent in game tutorial for the modes would solve half the problems by itself. Conquest, I believe, is hopeless though. Zoom Zoom.

[Wolf Clearwater]

Esplodin, on 13 February 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Lol - I put in an AC5 and made a raven who came up in my face for the easy kill rethink the damage potential of the ballistic spider.

Try dual AC2 with an XL195 and 4 tons ammo....Ravens run unless they are close enough for streaks

Capping is the best way to win in Conquest.....lots more money that way. I always try to leave one left. As far as Assault goes, fight to the bitter end

Edited by Wolf87535, 13 February 2013 - 06:36 PM.

[Huntsman]

It is beyond me why anyone would cap in assault. Aside from simply being less fun than fighting, the c-bills you earn vs the time spent to earn them is no longer equitable by capping in assault.

Before the revision, you made less typically for capping, but if you were able to do so quickly, you would earn that money in a very short period of time, making it worthwhile. Nowadays however, the lionshare of your earn in Assault comes from damage dealt and kills, so capping in that game mode is tantamount to pretty much just trolling everyone in the match and screwing them out of a decent time spent to c-bills earned ratio.

Edited by Huntsman, 13 February 2013 - 06:35 PM.