473 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

armyof1, on 14 February 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

10 mins are one of the longer waits, but it most certainly happens sometimes when there are several lrmboats unleashing their ridiculous amount of missiles they can pack with them. More often you do get several players thinking "Scr*w this, I have better things to do with my time" and rush in and get 2-3 shots off and die, and sometimes I do that too in hope of the next game being worth playing.

I agree lrm should make people think about finding cover, but what I disagree with is how big a cover you're forced to find since lrms are too good at sneaking around and over cover. When you fire lrms you don't even have to worry about standing in front of a mountain, they go straight through the top of it which make it even easier to use them without leaving cover. Easy mode is just too easy.

Funny, on many of those ridges, I find I have walk enough to get my launchers over the top, otherwise they all go into the hill, or most of them do. And do you count the couple that got you as a full hit? I find I normally am laughing at LRMs as i dodge most of them if not all of the missiles. They typically do so little damage to me, unless I was really caught out in the open and then, my bad. I took a beating for my troubles and my mistake.

armyof1, on 14 February 2013 - 04:02 PM, said:

There's just so much I can do with a 4SP really, exchange 4 ML and some SRM ammo for one LL? I have to say I find there's something wrong when there are maps that make a certain variant of a mech close to worthless. Lrmboats don't have it as bad at all even in River City. As soon as the fighting starts you will have moments that you're exposed and eat a bunch of lrms.

Welcome to combat. Not everything will favor every mech design. It happens in real war. It happened in the books.It happened in TT. Guess why a lot of stalk mechs had a variety of weapons and weapon ranges?

Also, ever considered changing SRMs for LRMs? Or just face the fact that not all maps are made for brawlers. Wonder what you are going to do on the larger 12 v 12 maps?

[Deamhan]

Death Mallet, on 14 February 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

The Problem:

LRMs never got "fixed". The problem with LRMs was only covered up by the dominance of ECM on the battlefield. Well, ECM is about to take a big hit. . . and once again the LRM boats will reap a deadly toll on everything else.

How We Got Here:

On the Feb 8 patch the heat fixes to the PPC allowed it to make a triumphant return to the battlefield. Its in widespread use again now.

On Feb 19, PPCs will now shut down ECM. Which means, AS7-D-DCs will largely become obsolete. They'll be hit with enough PPC fire that their ECM will be negated most of the time.

This leaves only the light mechs to carry the effective ECM systems.

What's Going to Happen on Feb 19:

- LRM boats are going to come back in a big way. If you're driving a heavy or assault mech, you will no longer have effective ECM cover once the PPCs start flying and, once again, you will start getting anihilated by massed LRM volleys.

- Premades will dominate PUG players more than they do now. Why? Because only the light mechs will have effective ECM due to it being harder to hit them with PPCs. On smart premade teams, the light mech drivers will be assigned to hang back and cover the heavies and assaults with their ECM. On pug teams the light mech players will charge out as they do today, leaving the heavies and assaults to get slaughtered by LRMs.

- AS7-D-DCs will gradually disappear from the battlefield. The game will come to be dominated by light mechs toting PPCs and LRM boats - probably Stalkers. Other mech types need not apply.

What can be done to fix the coming LRM apocalypse?

- Nerf LRM damage
- Increase non-ECM LRM lockon time
- Reduce LRM accuracy
- Reduce ammo/ton for LRMs
- Fix the double heat sink issue so its not biased in favor of light mechs.
http://mwomercs.com/...simplification/

. . . or all of the above.

Or they can do just one thing....

Appropriately buff AMS

[armyof1]

Tesunie, on 14 February 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Funny, on many of those ridges, I find I have walk enough to get my launchers over the top, otherwise they all go into the hill, or most of them do. And do you count the couple that got you as a full hit? I find I normally am laughing at LRMs as i dodge most of them if not all of the missiles. They typically do so little damage to me, unless I was really caught out in the open and then, my bad. I took a beating for my troubles and my mistake.



Welcome to combat. Not everything will favor every mech design. It happens in real war. It happened in the books.It happened in TT. Guess why a lot of stalk mechs had a variety of weapons and weapon ranges?

Also, ever considered changing SRMs for LRMs? Or just face the fact that not all maps are made for brawlers. Wonder what you are going to do on the larger 12 v 12 maps?

I don't think I've ever seen LRM explode on their way up towards a target but plenty of times go through cover when I spectate after death and I do that quite often. I'm often playing mediums so the armor is not that thick and having my mech entirely behind cover and glued to it, LRMs can come a bit from the right, snake around the cover and still hit me from the left, maybe 5-6 from a 30 volley. That kind of tracking is just too strong and it all adds up. And using LRM with the limited weight I can carry means I'd have a pointless amount of firepower.

It's not how many players are on each side that matters, it's how the maps are shaped. To have huge open maps with little and far between cover means it's just snipe or LRM that matters, and that with random maps put all other mechs in a position of being pointless. I think that's bad map design. Some map favors one style, some map another I get. Maps that make one style of fighting close to worthless I can't agree with.

Edited by armyof1, 14 February 2013 - 04:46 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Buzzkillin, on 14 February 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

Everything doesn't have to revolve around the D-DC, light mechs carrying ECM can walk with the group and provide cover. You'll be surprised you are never the first target when walking with assaults.

Yes it does. D-DCs are sexy and sexy people drive them.

[Barushkukor]

THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING!

[Thorqemada]

armyof1, on 14 February 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

That is exactly the problem especially on Caustic valley, you are pretty much forced to stay around the edge of the volcano because it's too far to go from there to another cover as 2 lrmboats will have plenty of time to blast you into or close to death. In that situation piloting a HBK-4SP with the short to midrange weapons it's almost pointless for me to be in that match. Besides I play this game because I want it to of course be fun. Sitting in cover for 10 mins and waiting for missiles to run out is not what I consider fun.

Show some empathie and allow people that like LRM to have 1 of 4 maps that is quite open and benefits LRM usage

[Davers]

Barushkukor, on 14 February 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

THE SKY IS FALLING THE SKY IS FALLING!

I think that's exactly what the OP is afraid of.

[Tesunie]

armyof1, on 14 February 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

I don't think I've ever seen LRM explode on their way up towards a target but plenty of times go through cover when I spectate after death and I do that quite often. I'm often playing mediums so the armor is not that thick and having my mech entirely behind cover and glued to it, LRMs can come a bit from the right, snake around the cover and still hit me from the left, maybe 5-6 from a 30 volley. That kind of tracking is just too strong and it all adds up. And using LRM with the limited weight I can carry means some I'd have a pointless amount of firepower.

It's not how many players are on each side that matters, it's how the maps are shaped. To have huge open maps with little and far between cover means it's just snipe or LRM that matters, and that with random maps put all other mechs in a position of being pointless. I think that's bad map design.

I get hit by a couple of LRMs from time to time when I take cover. I'm happy that they don't go through terrain any more. Those few LRMs tend to scratch the paint more than anything else. Even in my Cicada it isn't much of a problem. Unless you are saying my Cicada has more armor than you.

Changing the SRM6s for LRM5s would give you good fire power at range (and save weight) as you close for the lasers. The idea is you aren't useless at any range, you use the LRMs as you approach and find a good target, then close in if you can for the lasers to do their work. You flank and support instead of being the lone star hero. Not all maps support close range. Actually, most maps support close range right now. Caustic just happens to be one of the few to encourage long range, which can be a nice change after playing river city a bunch of times. Oh, and even with my short ranged mechs, I can still find good cover as I close in, or as I wait I work on approaching from a different angle. I'm always finding, even as a sniper, I'm always moving to find a better position. Are you?

[Alexandrix]

armyof1, on 14 February 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

I don't think I've ever seen LRM explode on their way up towards a target but plenty of times go through cover when I spectate after death and I do that quite often. I'm often playing mediums so the armor is not that thick and having my mech entirely behind cover and glued to it, LRMs can come a bit from the right, snake around the cover and still hit me from the left, maybe 5-6 from a 30 volley. That kind of tracking is just too strong and it all adds up. And using LRM with the limited weight I can carry means I'd have a pointless amount of firepower.

It's not how many players are on each side that matters, it's how the maps are shaped. To have huge open maps with little and far between cover means it's just snipe or LRM that matters, and that with random maps put all other mechs in a position of being pointless. I think that's bad map design. Some map favors one style, some map another I get. Maps that make one style of fighting close to worthless I can't agree with.

I think what you may be seeing here is when people intentionally break LRM lock while the missiles are in the air,and then reacquire the lock right as the volley gets near their target.I've seen whole volleys of LRM's that are about to splash in the water suddenly do a 90 degree turn and chase a target behind a mountain.I appreciate this skill and timing,but I don't think missiles should be doing 90 degree turns lol

Edited by Alexandrix, 14 February 2013 - 05:02 PM.

[Taizan]

Behold the wrath of the totally imba über Awesome AWS-8R! It's the John Romero of mechs!

Edited by Taizan, 14 February 2013 - 05:02 PM.

[Craftyman]

prepare for trench warfare boys, just like world war I.

[Tesunie]

Alexandrix, on 14 February 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

I think what you may be seeing here is when people intentionally break LRM lock while the missiles are in the air,and then reacquire the lock right as the volley gets near their target.I've seen whole volleys of LRM's that are about to splash in the water suddenly do a 90 degree turn and chase a target behind a mountain.I appreciate this skill and timing,but I don't think missiles should be doing 90 degree turns lol

I think that isn't the way they want LRMs to work and should probably be reported as a bug, but I too have seen this.

[Spr1ggan]

Kooler, on 14 February 2013 - 09:45 AM, said:

They might be a problem with some people that want to march in a straight line across open areas but I'm sure most of us have learned tactics to counteract LRMs.

Last time I checked every miltary in the world didn't just run their soliders out in the open to engage the enemy

British Army during WW1.

[Shard Phoenix]

While the OP is decrying that the sky will fall due to being destroyed by LRMS....

Elsewhere in the Inner Sphere pilots such as myself will continue to play while giving no "fornication under consent of the king(s)" about LRMs being spewed from every corner of the map by the newest mech. Like all of the new mechs before it, you'll see a ton of missile spewing Trebuchets for a week or so while people get the new mech smell out of their system. Then, things will go back to normal.

[DrxAbstract]

This is only the 30th time the world is going to end...

I've been in a multitude of ECM-less games where neither side has any LRMs, both sides have LRMs and no ECM, and 5 ECM mechs with no LRMs. My strategy during those games remained unchanged: Stay behind buildings/hills. Curiously, they're effective at blocking more than just LRM fire. I've been pinned down by long-range weapons before and none of them were LRMs... in fact, i'd prefer they had been, because then id have time to move to another spot. Unlike with PPC, Gauss and Large Laser boats where i lose 50% armor on some random section the very second i peek from cover.

As it stands, i'd prefer people start carrying more LRMs, because it means less of the other more dangerous weapons that have a habit of melting your face off inside 180m... Nothing screams free kill like a mech carrying multiple LRM racks.

[Tesunie]

DrxAbstract, on 14 February 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

This is only the 30th time the world is going to end...

I've been in a multitude of ECM-less games where neither side has any LRMs, both sides have LRMs and no ECM, and 5 ECM mechs with no LRMs. My strategy during those games remained unchanged: Stay behind buildings/hills. Curiously, they're effective at blocking more than just LRM fire. I've been pinned down by long-range weapons before and none of them were LRMs... in fact, i'd prefer they had been, because then id have time to move to another spot. Unlike with PPC, Gauss and Large Laser boats where i lose 50% armor on some random section the very second i peek from cover.

As it stands, i'd prefer people start carrying more LRMs, because it means less of the other more dangerous weapons that have a habit of melting your face off inside 180m... Nothing screams free kill like a mech carrying multiple LRM racks.

Your statement is the reason I keep saying people shouldn't/don't need to boat LRMs. I use them to be a threat at range, force people back into cover as I get closer, or for general support of a build. I don't boat them and yet I do very well. (Mostly because everyone thinks I'm boating the LRMs and fall for my close range weapons that seem to "surprise" them.)

Edited by Tesunie, 14 February 2013 - 05:21 PM.

[armyof1]

Tesunie, on 14 February 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

I get hit by a couple of LRMs from time to time when I take cover. I'm happy that they don't go through terrain any more. Those few LRMs tend to scratch the paint more than anything else. Even in my Cicada it isn't much of a problem. Unless you are saying my Cicada has more armor than you.

Changing the SRM6s for LRM5s would give you good fire power at range (and save weight) as you close for the lasers. The idea is you aren't useless at any range, you use the LRMs as you approach and find a good target, then close in if you can for the lasers to do their work. You flank and support instead of being the lone star hero. Not all maps support close range. Actually, most maps support close range right now. Caustic just happens to be one of the few to encourage long range, which can be a nice change after playing river city a bunch of times. Oh, and even with my short ranged mechs, I can still find good cover as I close in, or as I wait I work on approaching from a different angle. I'm always finding, even as a sniper, I'm always moving to find a better position. Are you?

Sure once isn't a big deal, but when you're actually being active for once because a light is trying to ambush you, then when you run back to cover and once again get scratched from a ridiculous angle it will add up.

I hope you're kidding about the LRM5 because those things are so weak they're almost pointless. And what would I do with them on River City, random maps remember? As for finding better positions, on Caustic there is just one cover for anything that isn't a quick light and that's around the volcano. Get to a smaller mountain and you're pinned down with nowhere to go. And even around the Volcano large portions are bad for cover, to allow what..? Yeah you guessed it, LRM heaven.

[Xenois Shalashaska]

Death Mallet, on 14 February 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

The Problem:

LRMs never got "fixed". The problem with LRMs was only covered up by the dominance of ECM on the battlefield. Well, ECM is about to take a big hit. . . and once again the LRM boats will reap a deadly toll on everything else.

How We Got Here:

On the Feb 8 patch the heat fixes to the PPC allowed it to make a triumphant return to the battlefield. Its in widespread use again now.

On Feb 19, PPCs will now shut down ECM. Which means, AS7-D-DCs will largely become obsolete. They'll be hit with enough PPC fire that their ECM will be negated most of the time.

This leaves only the light mechs to carry the effective ECM systems.

What's Going to Happen on Feb 19:

- LRM boats are going to come back in a big way. If you're driving a heavy or assault mech, you will no longer have effective ECM cover once the PPCs start flying and, once again, you will start getting anihilated by massed LRM volleys.

- Premades will dominate PUG players more than they do now. Why? Because only the light mechs will have effective ECM due to it being harder to hit them with PPCs. On smart premade teams, the light mech drivers will be assigned to hang back and cover the heavies and assaults with their ECM. On pug teams the light mech players will charge out as they do today, leaving the heavies and assaults to get slaughtered by LRMs.

- AS7-D-DCs will gradually disappear from the battlefield. The game will come to be dominated by light mechs toting PPCs and LRM boats - probably Stalkers. Other mech types need not apply.

What can be done to fix the coming LRM apocalypse?

- Nerf LRM damage
- Increase non-ECM LRM lockon time
- Reduce LRM accuracy
- Reduce ammo/ton for LRMs
- Fix the double heat sink issue so its not biased in favor of light mechs.
http://mwomercs.com/...simplification/

. . . or all of the above.

They just need collision to be placed back in. all sorted

[Tesunie]

armyof1, on 14 February 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

Sure once isn't a big deal, but when you're actually being active for once because a light is trying to ambush you, then when you run back to cover and once again get scratched from a ridiculous angle it will add up.

I hope you're kidding about the LRM5 because those things are so weak they're almost pointless. And what would I do with them on River City, random maps remember? As for finding better positions, on Caustic there is just one cover for anything that isn't a quick light and that's around the volcano. Get to a smaller mountain and you're pinned down with nowhere to go. And even around the Volcano large portions are bad for cover, to allow what..? Yeah you guessed it, LRM heaven.

Sure, over time. Over time a single small laser hit can kill.

Nope. My first mech was a Hunchback 4SP. I worked if the trial 4J before that. I find having two LRM5s worked very well. Just like my Dragon now has one LRM10. My Stalker has four LRM5s. They are there to damage as I close in, not as a primary weapon. It gives me the option to hang back and shot LRMs making me a guard for other LRM mechs, or move forward constantly shooting something at the foe. As I close in I get more fire power. If nothing else I can force people back into cover when they hear "incoming missile". It's a support mech, not a lone star mech. But I can support anyone with this mech and not fear being shut down or close range.

If I could challenge you to a 1v1 I would you show you what I mean. Hunchback vs Hunchback. Same version. I suspect you underestimate the LRM5, especially when in pairs.

I've used LRMs on those maps. But if you think those maps are useless to LRMs, you just made my point for me. Why should your brawling build be useful everywhere, but my long range build be useful no where?
Oh, and what about those nice ridges along 3 line and 6(?) line? Even if the enemy camps there, there is always the other side. Loop around the long way and attack them from the direction of their base. If they take the middle, use that hill edge to your average. Most of the missiles should run into it instead of you.

[armyof1]

Tesunie, on 14 February 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Sure, over time. Over time a single small laser hit can kill.

Nope. My first mech was a Hunchback 4SP. I worked if the trial 4J before that. I find having two LRM5s worked very well. Just like my Dragon now has one LRM10. My Stalker has four LRM5s. They are there to damage as I close in, not as a primary weapon. It gives me the option to hang back and shot LRMs making me a guard for other LRM mechs, or move forward constantly shooting something at the foe. As I close in I get more fire power. If nothing else I can force people back into cover when they hear "incoming missile". It's a support mech, not a lone star mech. But I can support anyone with this mech and not fear being shut down or close range.

If I could challenge you to a 1v1 I would you show you what I mean. Hunchback vs Hunchback. Same version. I suspect you underestimate the LRM5, especially when in pairs.

I've used LRMs on those maps. But if you think those maps are useless to LRMs, you just made my point for me. Why should your brawling build be useful everywhere, but my long range build be useful no where?
Oh, and what about those nice ridges along 3 line and 6(?) line? Even if the enemy camps there, there is always the other side. Loop around the long way and attack them from the direction of their base. If they take the middle, use that hill edge to your average. Most of the missiles should run into it instead of you.

LRM is not useless on River City when delivered in huge amounts at the same time. You just need to find someone in a fight and they will have periods out of cover that you can take advantage of. But shooting off 2x5 compared to 4x15, well you do the math. And at the same time a short to medium range mech that can't go 150kph should not be useless in Caustic, but it pretty much is unless you got suiciders running straight into your team or at the end when the last opponents are getting steamrolled.

Edited by armyof1, 14 February 2013 - 05:54 PM.