473 replies to this topic

[headbasher]

I think the real question here is when did they make stalkers into lights OP?

wonder if op runs a lot of ecm????

[Thorqemada]

In Caustic you can usually move along the map borders without being obliterated.
Only when you stay at the rim of the volcano you cant move bcs you are to close to the enemy with to much open range to the next cover but you can fall back and still move along the borders as long the game is not lost.
LRMs at that range need 8 to 10 seconds to reach you after the enemy got a lock which takes 3 to 5 seconds so you can move several 100m.

The problems of LRM is not the dps but the hilarious boating of 4 or 5 launches and the ability to store 1000s of missiles.
With an Ammo limit of 4 tons you would immedieately prevent boating in such a way.

[TwentyOne]

yes, LRMS without anything to keep them in check are OP. But PPC's wont make ecm worthless on slow movers.
Its easier to TAG than to shoot them once to get lock and again to not lose the lock
And no I don't like LRM SPAM. Some lrm's are OK but when the whole team cheat spams them (pre ecm) it was complete BS

[Tesunie]

armyof1, on 14 February 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

LRM is not useless on River City when delivered in huge amounts at the same time. You just need to find someone in a fight and they will have periods out of cover that you can take advantage of. But shooting off 2x5 compared to 4x15, well you do the math. And at the same time a short to medium range mech that can't go 150kph should not be useless in Caustic, but it pretty much is unless you got suiciders running straight into your team or at the end when the last opponents are getting steamrolled.

LRM 5s shoot faster, and are very light. You do a little math here to then. All the LRMs in the world, inside 180m. Four med lasers inside 180m, damage. All the SRMs in the world put outside 240m. Two LRM 5s outside 240m.

I remember playing against you. I was in a Stalker. You got close to me. How did the 6 med lasers feel from a non_LRM boating Stalker feel? Where you afraid of my 20 LRMs from my four LRM5s and had to close in? You hurt me, but i recall leaving you as slag. My point here is, you don't need to boat to be an effective build. If I had boated, I would have been slag, not you. Yet, you also couldn't afford to stay out of my laser range, as then my LRMs could rip you apart.

When I next get on, I'll rebuy my Hunchback 4SP. I'll post my damage on here if you wish with my build. It might surprise you. Or you could give it a quick try yourself and then say your opinion. Just recall that the build is made for flexibility, not being a killer hero. You pepper at range, close in when you need to, protect your team, even if that means wasting some LRMs to force someone back into cover. If the enemy is going to cover, then that's less damage they can do to your team. "Incoming missile" does not say how many missiles, and if you did the math, 18 damage is still not something that people ignore.

[Cato Phoenix]

The best counter to LRMS is a really big rock.

[Rannos]

Given the title, who would even read this thread for a serious discussion?

[Mazzyplz]

Quote

on-feb-19-prepare-to-be-obliterated-by-lrms-every-match

all is well!
i believe people who didn't like lrms were ppc users like me and because the ppc sucks; -because ballistics- there's nothing to complain about them;

now every gun will be potent, and you won't be able to cheese me with ballistic ecm, and i'll be able to take those ears off the cats and stalks

Edited by Mazzyplz, 14 February 2013 - 07:41 PM.

[SlXSlXSlX]

Not only wil I not pay pgi to hide behind a rock...

They couldnt pay me to hide behind a rock.

Let them expend their ammo... nay good sir. I'll be flanking. There are routes to most lrm spam spots which keep u safe till your on top of them. Trick is getting sammy simpleton to NOT die whilst you run teh route, or to encourage him to tag along.

Name one other F2P that has long long range weapons, which auto lock on, and can be spammed exclusively.

[El Bandito]

D-DC will never disappear but I understand what OP is trying to say.

[Tesunie]

Last three matches (skipped the first two matches as the first one crashed on me, and the second one was relearning how the mech works).

Standard 200 engine, 4 med lasers, and 2 LRM5s. Can't say I did great, but I haven't placed DHS or really much else back onto it. Not enough C-bills. Has been fun though so far. And I think the damage is fair.

[Gallowglas]

Personally, I think it will be fine. Tag doesn't ruin ECM and make LRM's some unstoppable juggernaut, so I doubt PPC's will either. Yes, I think people are deluded in thinking LRM's were in a good place before ECM. I suspect the only people who were saying that were dropping with LRM boats. I thought they were fine at first until we started seeing teams with 5-6 LRM boats. That turned the game into "let's spend half the match hiding" and then rush all at once. ECM may be too all-encompassing, but it did put LRM's back into more of a support role. People who think they're garbage obviously haven't played against teams that coordinate with a spotter. Things can still get ugly, but you can't just rely on a lone LRM mech getting 5 kills by themselves anymore.

[deputydog]

The amount of time that the ecm is knocked out is not enough to hold a lock with lrms and let them hit. you still need to tag it.

This is just going to make ecm mechs visible for short times so they arnt so sneaky and you can make a erppc/stk combo mech that is pretty effective.

[Soulscour]

Some people like original poster seem to think the small PPC change is going to bring LRMs back in a real way. I say its a very situational change. You basically get 5 seconds to obtain a lock and fire. You lose the lock most likely while the missiles are in flight unless you got the module in which case I got in one volley. Really LRMs are pretty prevalent already in pugs and the use of tag makes them very viable already. In 8vs8 or in games with stacked ecm the situation remains unchanged.

[One Medic Army]

So, I tried to fit out a Stalker with LRMs and PPCs.
I wound up with this. It's actually really hard to fit a PPC into a dedicated LRM stalker without instantly overheating.
Note the low amount of LRM ammo, note the low number of heatsinks and the fact it only has LRM50 total. Note how it's close defense weaponry is just 3 medium lasers.

I'm interested if anyone can actually post a viable build for a Stalker LRM-boat with PPC(s), anyone want to try?

[armyof1]

Tesunie, on 14 February 2013 - 06:11 PM, said:

LRM 5s shoot faster, and are very light. You do a little math here to then. All the LRMs in the world, inside 180m. Four med lasers inside 180m, damage. All the SRMs in the world put outside 240m. Two LRM 5s outside 240m.

I remember playing against you. I was in a Stalker. You got close to me. How did the 6 med lasers feel from a non_LRM boating Stalker feel? Where you afraid of my 20 LRMs from my four LRM5s and had to close in? You hurt me, but i recall leaving you as slag. My point here is, you don't need to boat to be an effective build. If I had boated, I would have been slag, not you. Yet, you also couldn't afford to stay out of my laser range, as then my LRMs could rip you apart.

When I next get on, I'll rebuy my Hunchback 4SP. I'll post my damage on here if you wish with my build. It might surprise you. Or you could give it a quick try yourself and then say your opinion. Just recall that the build is made for flexibility, not being a killer hero. You pepper at range, close in when you need to, protect your team, even if that means wasting some LRMs to force someone back into cover. If the enemy is going to cover, then that's less damage they can do to your team. "Incoming missile" does not say how many missiles, and if you did the math, 18 damage is still not something that people ignore.

Are you seriously using some time we might have fought that I can't even recall as an argument here? And you as a stalker against my 4SP, as if that would make a good point? We're talking about LRM or SRM on a 4SP and on most maps SRM will be way more useful. I've tried LRMS too and as is the nature with LRMs you will miss more than you hit. So 40% (and I'm probably being generous here) of a whopping 18 damage makes a grand 7.2 damage, instead of getting a majority of 30 damage from 2x6 SRM which is 15+ that you can also target reasonably well with with instead of always going straight for torsos. That small amount of LRMS I find to be mostly a waste of time. If you think it works for you then good for you, I sure don't see a lot of LRM 4SP around, and I think that's because SRM 4SP that you see all the time are clearly superior.

[CECILOFS]

Its ok you just need MORE DDCs and MORE ECM. Everything is fine, just bring n+1 ECM and you will still win.

Not to mention its a 7t piece of equipment to temporarily counter a 1.5t one and then only if you can constantly snipe them with it.

Each ECM mech must be CONSTANTLY barraged by PPC fire to fully nullify its ECM. If that is happening its going to die pretty soon anyway.

[Tesunie]

For the record, my point with the Stalker fight we had (I recalled after I looked at your name was all), was that if I had boated my LRMs like what most people tell me to do, you would have killed me. Easily. Because I didn't, I was a threat at long and short range.

I'm not saying LRMs are better than SRMs. Nor am I advocating the other way around. I know SRMs can cause a lot of damage, but LRMs have range, which if used properly can be very powerful. It's also a fear factor. If my LRMs force you to hide because you are hearing the "Incoming Missile" message, and you can't shoot when you are hiding, then my 10 LRMs aren't much of a waste to protect my team. And if you ignore it, that still can be enough damage to add up fast.

I see a lot of Splatcats, does that mean that LRM cats aren't effective? I see a lot of Atlases with LRMs and ECM. Does that make them more effective? Honestly, ECM Atlases I tend to LRM with some blind shots, and they just stand there and take them. Or, I charge them with a faster mech (or even a slow one if they just aren't paying attention) and I'll attack them within their minimum range. Honestly, the most threatening Atlas I have fought so far was one that had close range weapons, and an LRM20 system. He kept pelting me at range as his team distracted me, and when I got close he just put me in my place. It didn't matter where I was, he could hurt me.

I'm just saying that, maybe stalk mechs have mixed ranged weapons for a reason? And that, although boating can be more effective for damage, maybe boating all of one weapon system isn't always the best idea. AKA: An all short range design on Caustic Valley. And all LRM design being caught in the tunnel (or has an enemy hiding in the tunnel from them).

I'm finding that my best designs have a good mix of weapons. Some LRMs for support (or other long range weapon) paired up with some nice close range weapons to balance the design. Then, at range or up close I can be a threat. Image if you will, a whole team of people who load up on a couple LRMs and lasers for shorter range. You poke your head around the corner, and you have all of the team shooting their LRMs at you. You close in to remove the LRMs, and they all focus their lasers on you and melt you. (This is theorizing on max team work and communication). There would be no escaping from a team like that. It wouldn't be, kill the LRM boats and then keep range on the rest of the team as they are all close range mechs. You take down one mech, the others can keep going and can fill the missing void. (Not saying a missile LRM boat isn't useful, as they where in the books, lore and make a lot of sense. Just saying that, maybe having weapons that can work no matter what range you are at can still be effective. Especially for someone aimed at supporting a team.)

My Hunchback 4SP I find is a great support. I hang back when I need to, particularly if I find there are other LRM boats. I protect the other LRM boats from anyone who gets too close, and I at the same time participate in causing some damage the entire match. At the same time, if I find a place that needs to be filled, I can close with my lasers and support an advance. I can flank still, shooting LRMs from the side lines till I find some unlucky foe who wondered away from his own support, and close in for a kill. My build has flexibility, which gives me some strengths an SRM design doesn't have. You would have to close in to do any damage. If you can be kept away, then you become less useful. If you can close though, you will cause more damage than I in a shorter amount of time. The faster damage in a short amount of time is why is it a popular and effective mech, in it's area of expertise.

But, in some cases, my LRMs will cause damage to you as you approach. I kick reverse to keep you in LRM range longer, and they are probably slowing you down more as you have to take cover from them. Once you hit my sweet spot, I start to do some precision laser work on any gaps or weak spots my LRMs might have caused, all while still outside your effective range and still shooting LRMs. Sure, you have lasers going in at me, but if we are thinking 1v1, you are probably already damaged and I am not. If luck is on my side, you might not even have all your weapons anymore. Your medium lasers start to flash back, but my armor is still good. By the time you are even in SRM range, I could (possibly) have taken half your weapons out, maybe. If not, I could be in a world of hurt, but I can still at least fight. Even if you get the jump on me and void my LRMs because you sneak up behind me, I can still probably put up a decent fight. I may go down, but I'm probably going to do a fair amount of damage before I'm done. Especially if I can home the lasers into one spot. If I can regain range, then I can make you less effective (SRM spread) and once more get my LRMs into the match, which are rather effective at 180-200m range.

I so wished we could do a 1v1. I think this could be a good challenge for each of us. I'm sure your SRM build is painfully brutal, but mine also has some good uses as well. To be honest, with my build, I don't even mind going at stalk speeds. Slow isn't a problem for my build, I just need to stay on the move, keep my eyes open, and play it smart. It would be an interesting match, and I feel it could go either way, depending upon tactics used, luck, terrain and skill. It'd probably be a blast. If you bumped up speed (which I'm sure you did), you probably would close with me faster than I would like, though I must admit as well, my current design is not finished. Need a few more improvements...

[Cest7]

Sooooooo the 3L is going to be even MORE OP?

[SpiralRazor]

armyof1, on 14 February 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

You sir have made such good points I can't find words to argue against you. I'll just let your wonderful arguments stand for themselves and shine with their wisdom over all of us. See you out there in your lrmboat/splatcat.

^

My point proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.....case rested.

[Budor]

If no TBT can equip ECM 19th will be 3M trollday.