221 replies to this topic

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Holy wall of text. I'm sorry but I stopped reading your post once I saw who was writing it.

[Armando]

Brown Hornet, on 28 February 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

Holy wall of text. I'm sorry but I stopped reading your post once I saw who was writing it.

That is good because my target audience are players who are looking to discuss the issues facing the game, as well as how to make the game better, and not a person who has already made up their mind on the issue, or has 'given up' on the game because things are not going the way they want. :-)

[StUffz]

Caleb Lee, on 26 February 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

They aren't forcing anyone to play in a particular play style, online gaming has done that for years. It's a simple fact that players working together on comms, especially if not PUG and are a unit, will trounce a group of randoms 90% of the time. The exceptions are typically a really, really bad unit and competent PUGs on the other side. I've been playing online games since about 1998 and from Quake on up this has held true.

The issue is a broken system. ECM's 3n1 features with no realistic counters completely nerfs lock on weapons, ability to communicate and designate targets. Those are probably the two biggest issues I have, as even on TS/Vent how do you communicate you want to attack a particular mech? Lance Leader: Target that DDC coming over the hill. Response: Which one?

Being in the open they do get punished if the opposing team has direct fire weapons. PPC, Gauss, UAC/AC, ER-LL etc... Sadly, LRMs fire suppression is no longer there unless a scout gets within TAG distance and then hey... 'Bitching Betty' announces to them they are being targeted now. Go figure...

Just a few words about the lance leader....

Quote

Lance Leader: Target that DDC coming over the hill. Response: Which one?

I hope you see yourself that the lance leader here makes a big mistake. Instead of naming the Alphabetic character over each mech he names the Mech variant. This is an issue of communication discipline. If the lance leader would have said Target A, B, C ,D E ,F, G etc. or Alpha, Beta, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrott, Golf (Nato alphabet) the targets are easily identified and assigned for focus fire.

[Armando]

StUffz, on 28 February 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Just a few words about the lance leader....

I hope you see yourself that the lance leader here makes a big mistake. Instead of naming the Alphabetic character over each mech he names the Mech variant. This is an issue of communication discipline. If the lance leader would have said Target A, B, C ,D E ,F, G etc. or Alpha, Beta, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrott, Golf (Nato alphabet) the targets are easily identified and assigned for focus fire.

When my team is faced with a mech under ECM and we want to call it as a kill target we name the chassis / variant, in addition to the target location (grid), as an example...AS7-D-DC in E5. If there are more than one AS7-D-DC in E5 we shoot at the one our teammates are also shooting at (doesn't matter which AS7-D-DC in E5 as long as we are ALL on the same target...i.e. - focus firing). You don't need an special equipment / module to see what target your teammates are shooting at.

[Flapdrol]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

When my team is faced with a mech under ECM and we want to call it as a kill target we name the chassis / variant, in addition to the target location (grid)

What do you do in a pug game?

[Armando]

Flapdrol, on 28 February 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

What do you do in a pug game?

Great question, here is my answer...

Fire at the target my teammates are shooting (if it is not already the target I am shooting at). Focus fire works like a charm and if you are paying attention to what is happening around you, you don't need coms to focus fire. (I see that 2 other people are shooting at the D-DC, prehaps I should stop shooting at the FLAME and start shooting at the D-DC with them).

While in 4 mans we do at time go off and do our own thing, but most of the time...we follow the pugs, wait for them to get in trouble, then help the focus down the targets they are shooting at. We are not in coms with the pugs...we are not typing out targets in team chat....we just PAY ATTENTION.

Edited by Armando, 28 February 2013 - 02:35 AM.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

StUffz, on 28 February 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

Just a few words about the lance leader....




I hope you see yourself that the lance leader here makes a big mistake. Instead of naming the Alphabetic character over each mech he names the Mech variant. This is an issue of communication discipline. If the lance leader would have said Target A, B, C ,D E ,F, G etc. or Alpha, Beta, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrott, Golf (Nato alphabet) the targets are easily identified and assigned for focus fire.

The fact that ECM obscures the alphabetic identifier and even if he can read it nobody else outside of 200m can...that was the main point of the guys post you quoted....

THE POINT of his post was to point out that this basic function gets pwned by ECM and he think that this is a problem.

[Jungle Rhino]

Armando we don't really need lessons on how to deal with ECM, everybody understands this.

What I am asking you to explain is this:

I am a n00b building an Atlas DDC and I have 2 slots and 1.5T left. I'm trying to decide between taking BAP or ECM but I need your help deciding which is going to be a better choice. Given that they both have the same fitting requirements I figure that either option will provide an equal benefit to myself and my team.

Could you please explain which option I should pick and why?

[Ari Dian]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

When my team is faced with a mech under ECM and we want to call it as a kill target we name the chassis / variant, in addition to the target location (grid), as an example...AS7-D-DC in E5. If there are more than one AS7-D-DC in E5 we shoot at the one our teammates are also shooting at (doesn't matter which AS7-D-DC in E5 as long as we are ALL on the same target...i.e. - focus firing). You don't need an special equipment / module to see what target your teammates are shooting at.

But you DO know that every mech from the enemies is tagged with a letter like StUffz said? If you target them, there is a big red letter in the lower right corner of the target. You dont need any special modules or equipment. Its already there.

It is way easier to say: "Prime target is Alpha (A)" instead of: "take down the left Atlas DC in E5 with the red painting" (to bad there are 2).

[Armando]

Jungle Rhino, on 28 February 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

Armando we don't really need lessons on how to deal with ECM, everybody understands this.

What I am asking you to explain is this:

I am a n00b building an Atlas DDC and I have 2 slots and 1.5T left. I'm trying to decide between taking BAP or ECM but I need your help deciding which is going to be a better choice. Given that they both have the same fitting requirements I figure that either option will provide an equal benefit to myself and my team.

Could you please explain which option I should pick and why?

You pick the ECM, because anyone can carry BAP, but only a select few can carry ECM (5 total chassis across all variants).
___________________________________________________________

I have answered your question, now my turn...

Why do the mechs that can carry ECM, get to carry ECM? To put it another way "Did the devs put a list of all the mechs up on a board and toss darts to see what mechs get to equip it...or is there a reason why the mechs that can carry it, get to carry it?" If there is a reason...what is it?

Let me ask you another...your team sees two mechs in D4, a AS7-D-DC and a CPLT-A1 with SRM6 x6....who are you going to take out first (which is the more dangerous/powerful mech that needs to go down a.s.a.p.)???

Since I asked you and extra question, please feel free to toss another my way! (but only if you answer both of mine).

[Inertiaman]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

That is good because my target audience are players who are looking to discuss the issues facing the game, as well as how to make the game better, and not a person who has already made up their mind on the issue, or has 'given up' on the game because things are not going the way they want. :-)

Your credibility is constantly damaged by your abrasive attitude. You persistently tell people that the only reason they want ECM nerfed is because they're not good enough at the game to appreciate it and simply want an easy ride. I suspect just about everyone who comments regularly here plays to a decent standard. Noone wants it easy. They just want it skilled, making sense, learner-friendly and balanced. MWOECM is none of those things. Why would anyone want to engage with someone who begins framing their argument by telling everyone that he's right because he's better?

More structurally - you consistently use your own anecdotal evidence to support your position. Stalker vs 3L? I'll take those odds as a raven all day. Same few people commenting negatively about ECM? That's because the other 1000 members either got bored, fed up or are playing something else.

Begin a conversation with the minimum of humility that most people manage and you'll probably end up having better conversations.

Edited by Inertiaman, 28 February 2013 - 03:03 AM.

[StUffz]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 28 February 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

The fact that ECM obscures the alphabetic identifier and even if he can read it nobody else outside of 200m can...that was the main point of the guys post you quoted....

THE POINT of his post was to point out that this basic function gets pwned by ECM and he think that this is a problem.

I don't think he gets pwned by ECM only but also by having a bad Intel and other factors. Going to his sample that they try to snipe enemies. Well, there are also easy methods to communicate: E6 Mech on the Left, Right Center. If the first shot is made with lasers, you should have enough "marking" to know where to fire.

But yeah. I see the issue with ECM but it is not what you can not beat with a good coordinated team. And on the other side. Have your Scouts gather information on your enemy while being under ECM themselve. They can give good Target assignment by TAG and also make the mechs hidden under ECM visible.

[Inertiaman]

Ari Dian, on 28 February 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

But you DO know that every mech from the enemies is tagged with a letter like StUffz said? If you target them, there is a big red letter in the lower right corner of the target. You dont need any special modules or equipment. Its already there.

It is way easier to say: "Prime target is Alpha (A)" instead of: "take down the left Atlas DC in E5 with the red painting" (to bad there are 2).

But you cannot target ECM shielded mechs outside of minrange - and when you do that information is not forwarded to your team elsewhere.....that point was made literally just before your post but jump into a game and check it for yourself!

[StUffz]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 02:52 AM, said:

Let me ask you another...your team sees two mechs in D4, a AS7-D-DC and a CPLT-A1 with SRM6 x6....who are you going to take out first (which is the more dangerous/powerful mech that needs to go down a.s.a.p.)???

Since I asked you and extra question, please feel free to toss another my way! (but only if you answer both of mine).

Splatpult Then the DDC. You can easily avoid a DDC because it is slower and the pult has lesser armor.

[Armando]

Ari Dian, on 28 February 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

But you DO know that every mech from the enemies is tagged with a letter like StUffz said? If you target them, there is a big red letter in the lower right corner of the target. You dont need any special modules or equipment. Its already there.

It is way easier to say: "Prime target is Alpha (A)" instead of: "take down the left Atlas DC in E5 with the red painting" (to bad there are 2).

I do not disagree that calling kill targets is 'easier' when there is no ECM involved...no doubt!!! What I am saying is that just because mechs are under an ECM bubble doesn't mean that you can't quickly AND effectively communicate the kill target to your teammates. Some people think that you have to have the enemy targeted to fire their weapons...THEY DON'T. Their weapons work just as effectively on an enemy that is not targeted as they do on an enemy who is targeted (range not withstanding).

The ‘key’ is being able to focus fire…you don’t need coms to see who the people around you are shooting at, and when you see your teammates are firing on a different target than you are….stop shooting your target and move to the one your teammates are firing on.

This ability…to pay attention to what your teammates are doing, and act accordingly is the difference between a pug group taking down a premade, and a premade rolling a pug. (Yes I have been in pug matches vs. a premade and we won because I, and the other pugs, PAID ATTENTION).

[Armando]

Inertiaman, on 28 February 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

Your credibility is constantly damaged by your abrasive attitude. You persistently tell people that the only reason they want ECM nerfed is because they're not good enough at the game to appreciate it and simply want an easy ride. I suspect just about everyone who comments regularly here plays to a decent standard. Noone wants it easy. They just want it skilled, making sense, learner-friendly and balanced. MWOECM is none of those things. Why would anyone want to engage with someone who begins framing their argument by telling everyone that he's right because he's better?

More structurally - you consistently use your own anecdotal evidence to support your position. Stalker vs 3L? I'll take those odds as a raven all day. Same few people commenting negatively about ECM? That's because the other 1000 members either got bored, fed up or are playing something else.

Begin a conversation with the minimum of humility that most people manage and you'll probably end up having better conversations.

Inertiaman, on 28 February 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

Your credibility is constantly damaged by your abrasive attitude.

"I'm sorry but I stopped reading your post once I saw who was writing it."

Nothing abrasive about that statement, nope...nothing at all.

[Inertiaman]

Doesn't make much sense to cite an issue at the end of a conversation that wouldn't have existed if you'd been less of a tool at the start of it now does it?

[Inertiaman]

But look - there's no value in a bunfight.

For my money - ECM should;

• Block detailed target info
  
• Increase lock time
  
• Block C3 transmission
  
• Be a 5k/7.5k module path

Would that be so bad? Missiles would still have a place, avoiding them would still require some skills, we'd lose all the ******** IFF issues and we wouldn't have 8000 posts on the forum in three months about it.

Also - I'd probably reduce the SSRM ammo per ton. It's silly generous at 100 per and I use them all the time.

Edited by Inertiaman, 28 February 2013 - 03:25 AM.

[StUffz]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

I do not disagree that calling kill targets is 'easier' when there is no ECM involved...no doubt!!! What I am saying is that just because mechs are under an ECM bubble doesn't mean that you can't quickly AND effectively communicate the kill target to your teammates. Some people think that you have to have the enemy targeted to fire their weapons...THEY DON'T. Their weapons work just as effectively on an enemy that is not targeted as they do on an enemy who is targeted (range not withstanding).

The ‘key’ is being able to focus fire…you don’t need coms to see who the people around you are shooting at, and when you see your teammates are firing on a different target than you are….stop shooting your target and move to the one your teammates are firing on.

This ability…to pay attention to what your teammates are doing, and act accordingly is the difference between a pug group taking down a premade, and a premade rolling a pug. (Yes I have been in pug matches vs. a premade and we won because I, and the other pugs, PAID ATTENTION).

Hm, I agree about the focus target however it is still good to communicate the target unless all agree to fire at the same target once one has identified an enemy target. but this would also mean that all are equipped for mid-long range combat.

[Flapdrol]

I just dont get it, there are a few people that seem to like ecm, but what's good about it?

All my builds are in some way adapted to deal with ECM and I'm playing all my matches in thermal vision because sensors are worthless.