221 replies to this topic

[Inertiaman]

On an different note - if that new Cicada hero has ECM I am going to MC myself up for the first time faster than you can say "Overpowered".

2x missile, 2/4 energy and runs on concentrated pug tears. Glorious!

[StalaggtIKE]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 03:58 AM, said:

StUffz you have answer the question correctly, you have won a greater understand of prioritizing what targets are powerful (CPTL-A1) and which are not so much (ECM carrying AS7-D-DC). Your prize... you will now live longer in battles because you 'get it' and know that the splat cat that hits for 90 per alpha is a much, Much, MUCH more powerful enemy that must be given priority over ALL OTHER mechs, including ALL ECM mechs.

The answer is inconclusive. With ECM denying you info of the CPLT-A1 layout, how does one know if it is in fact a Splatcat? More than likely after it has already fired upon you are your allies. In the mean time that ignored D-DC is slapping you around with an AC20. The point is the priority target is going to be the one that is most disruptive towards your team's perseverance. With ECM hiding his info, on the surface a CPLT-A1 is potential nothing but a steel walking tomb.

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

I do not disagree that calling kill targets is 'easier' when there is no ECM involved...no doubt!!! What I am saying is that just because mechs are under an ECM bubble doesn't mean that you can't quickly AND effectively communicate the kill target to your teammates. Some people think that you have to have the enemy targeted to fire their weapons...THEY DON'T. Their weapons work just as effectively on an enemy that is not targeted as they do on an enemy who is targeted (range not withstanding).

The ‘key’ is being able to focus fire…you don’t need coms to see who the people around you are shooting at, and when you see your teammates are firing on a different target than you are….stop shooting your target and move to the one your teammates are firing on.

This ability…to pay attention to what your teammates are doing, and act accordingly is the difference between a pug group taking down a premade, and a premade rolling a pug. (Yes I have been in pug matches vs. a premade and we won because I, and the other pugs, PAID ATTENTION).

Like I stated above people instinctively attack which ever appears to be giving them the most grief at that given time. It's hard for a novice player to momentailry ignore that Jenner nipping at his ankles for a higher priority target. This skill is learned over time. You can't simply make a bad player PAY ATTENTION. But you can teach him good tactics through repetition and success.

Prior to the arrival of ECM, target selection and call letters were tools that a veteran could use to guide new players. A tool that you and most of us have taken advantage of, before the inclusion of ECM. We learned through them and taught novice players with these tools. Now without those tools most new players are coming in "blind." Of course one could still provide guidance through text chat. But let's face it, that large red box was much more effective.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 28 February 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[Armando]

Brown Hornet, on 28 February 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

Hey Armando. I have a tip for you. I think you need to stop theorising and attempt to present a perfect theoretical answer to every question posed to you and start playing pug games. All I see from your posts is how good your team-mates are and how you work with them to create synergy. You really should play pug matches. This is the situation that really demonstrates the poor design of ecm. You Sir are a nerd of the highest order.

I was 9th for Assaults in last weekends pug tournament....362 pug matches played between my AS7-D-DC and my STK-5M, but you are so right, I never pug. (/rollseyes)



Now (today), I win more than I lose in pug matches, ECM makes NO difference to me either (I lost as many matches % wise in my D-DC as I did in my STK-5M). I will however, readily admit that before I joined my group and was taught how to be at least 'average' (and that is what I am... average, at best) I didn't fair so well in pugs (in either win % or K/D ratio).

While I didn't play many matches in Lights, Mediums, or Heavy mechs during the tournament ..I did play matches in all the weight classes. Can you guess the weight class that I had both the highest overall win% and K/D ratio ?? (Hint: It is the one and only weight class that NO mech can equip ECM).

Most of the reasons I win more than I lose in pug matches is simple...

...I stay with the group (I don't go off on my own)
...I fire on the same targets my teammates are firing on (focus fire works, and well too if you actually do it).
...I maintain situational awareness. (watch my flank and rear when standing still).

The not so simple reasons are...

...I don't run straight at enemy mechs (I strafe).
...I don't constantly face my enemy (I fire my weapons, then twist my torso and give the enemy my 'strong' side to fire at).
...I understand the hard points of mech variants (because I have EVERY mech in the game) and know where to aim at on enemy mechs.

If you were to look at the games I LOST, more often than not, I am sure you will find me NOT doing the above.

Also, by Sunday I was really flipping tired and my win% and K/D the last day showed it (I was WAY down in both comparability speaking on the last day).

Edited by Armando, 28 February 2013 - 06:47 AM.

[Twisted Power]

StUffz, on 28 February 2013 - 06:13 AM, said:

A good way is Alpine maps for example. On Assault mode Assaults are in disadvantage because of their speed and Lighter mechs have the benefit to decide the match by capping bases. The same map gives no advantage to ECM equipped mech. The map has a lot plain terrain and aiming with PPC is much easier than in pugs. Conquest without doubt also gives more the (fr)agile mechs an advantage compared those who relied on comps with heavy ECM support.

I would say that alpine is the most amazing map for ECM. But let us assume like you said your team chose not equip ECM on the alpine map for that reason and brought other mechs.

Its designe would allow that many of your team can be spotted at great ranges with the advance sensor module+BAP and the full 1000m range of missiles would be incredibly hard to counter with the lack of cover. Because of the large gaps in the map between the mountains, ECM is required to allow for the slow moving assaults to be able to cross the wide expanse without dying from LRM fire.

There is no "cave rout" on alpine.

I want to say I do like that new map, it requires that you split your team in order to attack or you get back capped by lights.

Edited by Twisted Power, 28 February 2013 - 06:29 AM.

[StUffz]

StalaggtIKE, on 28 February 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

The answer is inconclusive. With ECM denying you info of the CPLT-A1 layout, how does one know if it is in fact a Splatcat? More than likely after it has already fired upon you are your allies. In the mean time that ignored D-DC is slapping you around with an AC20. The point is the priority target is going to be the one that is most disruptive towards your team's perseverance. With ECM hiding his info, on the surface a CPLT-A1 is potential nothing but a steel walking tomb.

Splatcat needs to get into range of 270 m for effective fire range. By that time you or one of your teammates will have the splatcat on target. Consider that ECM only disrupts one mech and not the complete area. If there is another ECM mech, you just need to huddle more. And the same rule applies for Dual AC20 Cats. Agile hard hitters are primary targets unless the map gives you more time to focus down the ECM mech. If you are running solo then you can only pray to survive both mechs until you have backup from your team.

Twisted Power, on 28 February 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

I would say that alpine is the most amazing map for ECM. But let us assume like you said your team chose not equip ECM on the alpine map for that reason and brought other mechs.

Its designe would allow that many of your team can be spotted at great ranges with the advance sensor module+BAP and the full 1000m range of missiles would be incredibly hard to counter with the lack of cover. Because of the large gaps in the map between the mountains, ECM is required to allow for the slow moving assaults to be able to cross the wide expanse without dying from LRM fire.

There is no "cave rout" on alpine.

I want to say I do like that new map, it requires that you split your team in order to attack or you get back capped by lights.

Alpine Maps is vice versa. While the Ravens and Cics gets a lot of advantages DDC Atlas are more in disadvantage because of their speed and the open plain. Good point for sniper mechs without ECM.

Edited by StUffz, 28 February 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[StalaggtIKE]

StUffz, on 28 February 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

Consider that ECM only disrupts one mech and not the complete area. If there is another ECM mech, you just need to huddle more.

What!? Unless there has been a recent ninja nerf, this is not true.

Quote

Agile hard hitters are primary targets unless the map gives you more time to focus down the ECM mech.

This I know, the point is ECM hides his abilites until he is firing upon you.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 28 February 2013 - 06:40 AM.

[Armando]

StalaggtIKE, on 28 February 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

What!? Unless there has been a recent ninja nerf, this is not true.

Just to clarify, StUffz did say "If there is another ECM mech". I am guessing he is talking about having one on your team too.

Also, as stated by others, the majority of the time if you are in the weapons range of an enemy brawler / splat cat you can target them with or without ECM. (there is a 70M window a Brawler / boom cat can hit you, but you can't target him....from 200 to 270 if I am not mistaken).

[Thorqemada]

Counter only affects the closest enemy ECM Mech - but i dont know if that really works as i dont have an ECM Mech and i would change that to "Counter only affects the targeted enemy ECM Mech (within 180m range and direct LOS)".

[StalaggtIKE]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

Just to clarify, StUffz did say "If there is another ECM mech". I am guessing he is talking about having one on your team too.

There is a big difference between disrupt and counter. Perhaps counter is what he meant. Either way that justifies the unbalanced nature of ECM; one must bring ECM to beat ECM.

Quote

Also, as stated by others, the majority of the time if you are in the weapons range of an enemy brawler / splat cat you can target them with or without ECM. (there is a 70M window a Brawler / boom cat can hit you, but you can't target him....from 200 to 270 if I am not mistaken).

Your ability to target the Cat has nothing to do with his proximity, but instead your proximity to the ECM carrier.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 28 February 2013 - 06:48 AM.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Armando. Share with us your DDC and 5M loadout. I think I can guess what you use.

[Armando]

StalaggtIKE, on 28 February 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

Your ability to target the Cat has nothing to do with his proximity, but instead your proximity to the ECM carrier.

Brother, I think you missed the start of that conversation. The question was ask if you see an enemy D-DC and A1 at the same time (as in they are standing next to each other), which target are you going to make the priority. So, in this instance the splat cat is NEXT TO the D-DC.

Also, if there is an enemy D-DC and A1 next to each other...the 'overpowered' target that you SHOULD focus on first is the Splat cat, because even though it doesn't have ECM it is far, Far, FAR more dangerous than the D-DC. If ECM mechs are 'overpowered' when compared to all the other mechs, why would anyone ever NOT make the ECM mech the focus priority.

Fact is ECM mechs are not the most powerful mechs in the game, and that for every ECM mech there is....there is another MORE POWERFUL non ECM mech. (Go ahead and focus on any ECM mech, and ignore a dual AC/20 K2, or a splat cat A1, and tell me how that works out for you).

Make no mistake ECM mechs are a pain in the rear, but due to the low alphas (all 'scout' ECM mechs) or their slow speed (the D-DC), you can dance around them long enough to take out the priority mechs (like an A1 or a K2) then circle back and work over the ECM mechs.

Trying to do it the other way around, taking out the ECM mech first...and if the A1 or K2 is even a half way decent shoot you will never get the chance to circle back around to them as you will be to busy pushing up daisies. That is what it means to be overpowered...you simply can't ignore them or you WILL be dead. ECM is powerful, but not 90 spread / 40 pinpoint alpha kind of powerful....and it is not even close!!!

[Armando]

Brown Hornet, on 28 February 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Armando. Share with us your DDC and 5M loadout. I think I can guess what you use.

I will not share the D-DC load out as I didn't come up with it (not mine to say...I hope you understand). The STK-5M is one that I did come up with (as far as I know anyway...I am sure I am not the only one running it though) and I will be happy to share.

STK-5M (The 'ECM KILLER'):
STD300 (torsos are too big to roll with an XL IMO)
Armor - Standard
Structure: Standard
PPC x2
SSRM2 x5
TAG
DBL HS: x20

Play style is simple...hit the ECM mech with PPCs...fire SSRM2 x5, rinse and repeat as needed. It takes some time to get the timing down when it comes to hitting ECM scouts with the PPCs, but once you get THAT part down, the rest is cake (or pie if you prefer). :-)

[Flapdrol]

^^^^
got the same, only also with artemis and beagle.

anyway, a cheesy splatcat being dangerous doesnt make ecm ok.

[Inertiaman]

What range at the cat and ddc at?

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Armando. We (I think I can speak for some of the sane people here) do not think ECM mechs are the most powerful mechs in the game. You are a late-comer to a discussion that has been going on from the first instance. The people commenting about ECM here know exactly how it works. There's no need to explain it like we're all amateurs and are unaware of just how balanced it really is. I am actually poking fun at you because you seem very serious and you're presenting as an easy target. I apologise. It's unnecessary and childish.

[Torarild]

That sure is a lot of discussion, but think we are floating a bit off topic.
Way to balance the ECM is simple as far as I can tell, and it should be retuned to something like this:
1. Friendly ID mechs can be seen and are marked with the regular "arrow" and location on minimap, no matter if it is close to an enemy ECM.
2. Enemy mechs within the bubble can be targeted, but not be locked on with missiles, this will keep the preventive effect against "black sky full of LRM" and keep the SSRM Catapult in check. Mechs protected in this way should have an icon on their target box.
3. Enemy ECM mech itself should have the exact functionality of today, to allow scouting without popping up as a target the second they look over a hill.
4. Mechs within an enemy bubble should be jammed, and unable to transfer target info, but size of bubble should maybe be smaller.

This should make ECM a very good item, but not make the entire opposing team unable to coordinate, based on 1 item.

Now, what will this do to balance the 3L and other ECM SSRM boaters? Nothing, but the problem with them is the netcode and the SSRM itself, which also need a severe redesign.

Edit: Made some sentences a bit clearer.

Edited by Torarild, 28 February 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[Armando]

Flapdrol, on 28 February 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

^^^^
got the same, only also with artemis and beagle.

anyway, a cheesy splatcat being dangerous doesnt make ecm ok.

I agree that a cheesy splatcat or dual AC/20 K2 does NOT make ECM OK!!!! What does make it ok (or at least acceptable compared to the alternatives) is it lets the mechs that can equip them do their jobs (scouts can scout, and brawlers can get into brawling range).

That is my concern to making ECM changes...I never want to go back to the days when brawlers are dead before they can see the enemy...never. Please for the love of all that is good in the world let's never EVER go back to that. If you played a brawler per ECM you know what "Willis is talkin bout", if you know what I mean.

If I was going to make a change, it would not be to ECM specifically, but I would change the hard points of the ECM RVN-3L to be less....well, devastating...when compared to other scouts. The way the 3L plays is less like a scout and more like a skirmisher, and if you are going to give ECM to a skirmisher I see no reason NOT to give it to the Jenner (although I think that would make matters worse, not better). Drop a laser and a missile hard points and add a pair of ballistics, something, anything to make the RVN-3L less of a 'beast mode' mech.

[Inertiaman]

Torarild, on 28 February 2013 - 07:54 AM, said:

That sure is a lot of discussion, but think we are floating a bit off topic.

18,500 posts on the matter and five words out of PGI in response. We're not the ones who are off-topic!

Edited by Inertiaman, 28 February 2013 - 07:56 AM.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Armando, on 28 February 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

I will not share the D-DC load out as I didn't come up with it (not mine to say...I hope you understand). The STK-5M is one that I did come up with (as far as I know anyway...I am sure I am not the only one running it though) and I will be happy to share.

STK-5M (The 'ECM KILLER'):
STD300 (torsos are too big to roll with an XL IMO)
Armor - Standard
Structure: Standard
PPC x2
SSRM2 x5
TAG
DBL HS: x20

Play style is simple...hit the ECM mech with PPCs...fire SSRM2 x5, rinse and repeat as needed. It takes some time to get the timing down when it comes to hitting ECM scouts with the PPCs, but once you get THAT part down, the rest is cake (or pie if you prefer). :-)

This similar to my AWS-8R build (my most successful mech to date): STD 300, ES, 2ERPPCs, 4Streaks, TAG and 18 DHS. Here's my Atlas D-DC cause I like to share: STD 350, ES, LPL, 2Streaks, TAG, LRM10 (+Arty), AC20

[Armando]

Inertiaman, on 28 February 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

What range at the cat and ddc at?

CPLT-A1s and AS7-D-DC (if it has a brawler load out) have a weapons range of 270M. That means there is a 'dead zone' between 200M and 270M where they (if side by side) can fire on you before you can target them.