139 replies to this topic

[TopDawg]

This thread was definitely a good read and I commend you for taking the time to not only write it up, but post it publicly as well. It kind of illustrates the gulf between competitive play and PUG play, as well as the lack of variety (I would call this balance) at top levels of play currently, which inherently subsist on artificial limits already being imposed to help rectify a further lack of balance present in the first place.

Anywho, it was a point I attempted to bring to light in this thread (granted I type more than most people probably want to read), GAME BALANCE: SINGLE PERSON, 2-4 PERSON, AND 8 PERSON (SOON TO BE 12). WHAT SHOULD THE FOCUS BE?. As I see it, the obvious answer is to balance for the most competitive level of play. But I digress and don't mean to derail your thread. Again, good write up!

[Warskull]

Garfuncle, on 26 February 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

If competitive play is basicaly brawlwarrior online, with no LRM support whatsoever, then things need to be looked at. More big maps, and a serious look at SRM balance compared to ballistics and lasers.

Also no Awesomes? Lame. Comp looks bleh this game until we see some changes.

90% of why you don't see LRMs is due to ECM. If your opponent is running 4+ copies of ECM, LRMs are going to be of limited use. LRMs still work great in because people bring sub-optimal builds and you usually don't have the solid wall of ECM. In any competitive format, people are going to bring all the ECM they can fit.

Nerfing ECM (which is clearly needed) would bring LRMs back into play. They are very powerful when you can get locks.

Edited by Warskull, 26 February 2013 - 06:22 PM.

[Protection]

Garbagecan, on 26 February 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

I was wondering if indirect firing LRMs was possible with a tagger?

Generally it isn't worth the risk for the unit with the TAG.

If you are able to TAG a target, then the target can probably put direct fire back on you. And in competition games, the guys with Gauss rifles and PPCs are usually pretty good shots (if not jaw droppingly amazing), and will drop the TAG unit pretty quickly.

And even if you can get the TAG off, there's a big risk that the target will still duck behind cover before the LRMs reach him.

Warskull, on 26 February 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

90% of why you don't see LRMs is due to ECM. If your opponent is running 4+ copies of ECM, LRMs are going to be of limited use. LRMs still work great in because people bring sub-optimal builds and you usually don't have the solid wall of ECM. In any competitive format, people are going to bring all the ECM they can fit.

Nerfing ECM (which is clearly needed) would bring LRMs back into play. They are very powerful when you can get locks.

While ECM has definitely hurt LRMs further, even before ECM was in use, LRMs had largely failed to find success in competition matches. Best example I can think of previously was the Blackthorne's Dragoon Double Elimination Tournament - where almost everyone tried to run mass LRMs or LRM/Direct Fire combinations.

And the only team that didn't run any LRMs at all (us), won the tournament. Most of the LRM barrages never hit the mark, while Gauss Rifles and Large Lasers whittled down targets, who were largely outgunned when it turned into a brawl.

Teams generally stick to cover pretty tight in competitive games. It's really really hard to find the angles to land the missiles. Like I said, I believe it could be done, but no one has really done it yet (as far as I am aware).

You are right, LRMs can be very powerful, but they dont often find the mark. And they are hard to balance for MW:O. PUGs - especially without teamspeak, can really struggle against LRMs, so it's a dangerous idea to suggest buffing them. It's really awkward to try and fit them in.

[Hawkwings]

It's worth it to note that the one time LRMs were ridiculously good was when Artemis was first introduced and the missile flight path was different. Cover was no use anymore because LRMs dropped straight down from overhead onto the cockpits of the target. Cover has always been the best LRM counter, so when cover was essentially removed, LRMs became incredible.

It would be interesting to see how the old flight path would work out in the current game with ECM and all.

[MustrumRidcully]

I find it interesting that a "team-work" weapon like TAG is not deemed worth it in a team environment. I can understand the reasoning behind it, but it is important to consider the value of TAG in "balancing" ECM.

I wonder - would NARC be considered more useful if it would:
- Last Longer
- Penetrate ECM?

[Crockdaddy]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 February 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

I find it interesting that a "team-work" weapon like TAG is not deemed worth it in a team environment. I can understand the reasoning behind it, but it is important to consider the value of TAG in "balancing" ECM.

I wonder - would NARC be considered more useful if it would:
- Last Longer
- Penetrate ECM?

Tagging is great ... until the coordinated Gauss / PPC barrage cores you on the first shot. As stated several times within this thread, cover largely reduces the effectiveness of LRM's within competitive groups. Tagging requires LOS which obviously greatly increases the likely hood of direct fire weapons hitting you.

[TheMagician]

Thundercat (for us anyhow) was the old 2PPC/LL/JJ build. It was a fairly decent mech in the early days.


The builds protection posted are good to base off of. I'd say that we find a new way of building a mech every week. SRM mechs can be tweaked back and forth regularly, as ones falls in and out of love with artemis.

[Slash]

CrockdaddyAoD, on 27 February 2013 - 03:47 AM, said:

Tagging is great ... until the coordinated Gauss / PPC barrage cores you on the first shot. As stated several times within this thread, cover largely reduces the effectiveness of LRM's within competitive groups. Tagging requires LOS which obviously greatly increases the likely hood of direct fire weapons hitting you.

Totally agree. One of the best techniques I've picked up is NOT firing at that raven scout when i see it standing still, but instead telling others and establishing coordination the shot at the same moment.

[Regrets]

LRMs will get better as the map pool changes. Also LRMs are decent with DDC spotters.

The real question for league matches is if Mediums are viable at all. I suppose you can make arguments for Heavies like the Splatcat over Stalker SRMboat, but still what is the point? Sorry I'd rather have just about any heavy+ over a Centurion/Hunchie. Obv lights still play a role with capping and scouting, but there is no point to any medium but the ECM Cicada.

[Deathwarrior]

Regrets, on 27 February 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

LRMs will get better as the map pool changes. Also LRMs are decent with DDC spotters.

The real question for league matches is if Mediums are viable at all. I suppose you can make arguments for Heavies like the Splatcat over Stalker SRMboat, but still what is the point? Sorry I'd rather have just about any heavy+ over a Centurion/Hunchie. Obv lights still play a role with capping and scouting, but there is no point to any medium but the ECM Cicada.

League matches have 5 sets of predetermined drop loudouts. They are not drop in whatever you want 3 DDC/5 3L type matches.

Drop Example: 1 Assault, 3 heavies, 2 mediums, 2 lights

Mediums play a large role in matches due to their mobility and damage output (see CN9-A SRMs). CN9-As are excellent for line rushing and causing havoc on squishy RCTs. Cicadas have started to fall by the wayside as they are usually easy meat for 3Ls.

[Regrets]

Deathwarrior, on 27 February 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

League matches have 5 sets of predetermined drop loudouts.Ahh ignore everything I said then. Thanks for the clarification.

Ahh ignore everything I said then. Thanks for the clarification.

[Illydth]

The LRM issue at the moment is the number of things in the game that are put there to directly counter LRMs.

Between every map having an extended amount of cover to get just about anywhere, ECM, requiring target lock for LRMs to do anything but dive into the ground (Really?), and dropping target lock almost the moment the mech disappears, it's difficult for LRMs to do anything effective except to punish bad players. I'd like to say I wasn't sure when the Devs decided LRMs should be removed from the game, but I know when it happened (Artemus patch).

It's pretty sad that there are only two options for mech play at this point: Brawler or Direct Fire.

When the game was first announced one of the draws was supposed to be that every play type had a role to play on the battle field...and this actually persisted through much of closed beta. After the Artemus patch, however, the support role was removed from the game, and without a functional NARC or Support Role, scouting became "find the mechs then hang back and become brawlers once the rest of the group engages."

Just the fact that the RHOD league must mandate a balanced mech loadout (instead of it being player choice) on a match by match basis denotes how quickly this is turning into a standard PvP shoot em' up instead of a tactics based chess match.

[Crockdaddy]

Illydth, on 27 February 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

The LRM issue at the moment is the number of things in the game that are put there to directly counter LRMs.

Between every map having an extended amount of cover to get just about anywhere, ECM, requiring target lock for LRMs to do anything but dive into the ground (Really?), and dropping target lock almost the moment the mech disappears, it's difficult for LRMs to do anything effective except to punish bad players. I'd like to say I wasn't sure when the Devs decided LRMs should be removed from the game, but I know when it happened (Artemus patch).

It's pretty sad that there are only two options for mech play at this point: Brawler or Direct Fire.

When the game was first announced one of the draws was supposed to be that every play type had a role to play on the battle field...and this actually persisted through much of closed beta. After the Artemus patch, however, the support role was removed from the game, and without a functional NARC or Support Role, scouting became "find the mechs then hang back and become brawlers once the rest of the group engages."

Just the fact that the RHOD league must mandate a balanced mech loadout (instead of it being player choice) on a match by match basis denotes how quickly this is turning into a standard PvP shoot em' up instead of a tactics based chess match.

How is RHOD defining what drop classes two competing units drop make it into PvP shoot em' up? Say you have a
2 - 2 - 2 -2 drop, well ... you can run LMR boat assaults if you like and can make it work or D-DC brawlers. The same goes for each weight class. There is still strategy involved, just the competitive units tend to find optimal builds quickly (for obvious reasons). There is still variety. Some go sniping, some cap, some smother you with a light rush ... honestly I have seen it all. It is hard to predict what another team will do exactly. If you guess wrong or don't get accurate scouting information your in big trouble quickly. More often than not competitive drops ARE chess matches.

Slash, on 27 February 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Totally agree. One of the best techniques I've picked up is NOT firing at that raven scout when i see it standing still, but instead telling others and establishing coordination the shot at the same moment.

Great point, of course a standing still Raven usually means it will soon be a "Dead Raven"

[Jchan1e]

TheMagician, on 27 February 2013 - 05:38 AM, said:

Thundercat (for us anyhow) was the old 2PPC/LL/JJ build. It was a fairly decent mech in the early days.

As a Rasalhauge, i have to call it "Thorcat". And this is pretty much what I'm running at the moment, minus the jumpjets.
But how do you fit all that equipment on one mech anyway? The K2 can't mount jumpjets, and the others don't have the hardpoint distribution to fit that many big energy weapons.

[Grissnap]

Jchan1e, on 28 February 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

As a Rasalhauge, i have to call it "Thorcat". And this is pretty much what I'm running at the moment, minus the jumpjets.
But how do you fit all that equipment on one mech anyway? The K2 can't mount jumpjets, and the others don't have the hardpoint distribution to fit that many big energy weapons.

CPLT-C1: 2PPCs in the side torsos, 1 LL in the CT, and can mount JJs.

Also, thanks to OP for this thread. Very informative.

[Jchan1e]

Grissnap, on 28 February 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

CPLT-C1: 2PPCs in the side torsos, 1 LL in the CT, and can mount JJs.

ahhhh, I thought you had 2 LLas in there.

[Training Instructor]

It is sort of amusing that the RHOD league has to mandate drop restrictions.

I'm not laughing at them, I'm laughing with them. Players usually have a better handle on how to run the pvp game than developers do, and this has been the case with almost every pvp game I've played in the past.

[Protection]

MustrumRidcully, on 27 February 2013 - 02:11 AM, said:

I find it interesting that a "team-work" weapon like TAG is not deemed worth it in a team environment. I can understand the reasoning behind it, but it is important to consider the value of TAG in "balancing" ECM.

I wonder - would NARC be considered more useful if it would:
- Last Longer
- Penetrate ECM?

Part of the problem is that a NARC takes a missile slot. If it is a one-shotter, then it works fine for a Streak SRM2. It it is a 4+ shooter, then SRMs. Wasting that precious hardpoint on a heavy NARC beacon is a bad decision for what it does.

One of our players suggested that NARC should give LRMs the old 'scorpion tail' trajectory, to utterly bypass most cover - that would probably be enough to make them viable, but I have a feeling it would utterly ruin most PUG matches. I don't think long lasting or ECM penetration are enough. TAG sort of covers that, and TAG still is almost never seen.

[TerebNeerg]

I think ECM penetration would do it if the NARC beacon ignores line of sight. TAG requires line of sight to maintain and acquire. As an LRM/SSRM user, you would have target lock BEFORE the enemy could fire at you.

I've never bothered to try using a NARC beacon in-game so I'm not entirely sure how they work...

[Protection]

Teams generally want mass ECM on light mechs (and Cicadas) to win the Streak SRM control.

Teams usually only need one ECM on the Assault mechs to ensure that you can conceal an advance / re-positioning.