169 replies to this topic

[Skylarr]

So the clans are veteran warriors, piloting advanced tech Mechs, who follow a code of conduct that they follow in combat.

So why does it feel that every Clanner are looking for reasons not to follow Zellbringing.

The should be like "The Clans are supperior to all IS Mechwarriors in every way.Meet me on the Battlefield and I will prove it."

The Clan in the novel did not realize they were being pulled into a trap. The player playing the Clans will know to watch out for traps.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

So why does it feel that every Clanner are looking for reasons not to follow Zellbringing.

It is not that we are trying not to follow Zellbrigen, it is that some people do not understand how it works.

[Kartr]

Jaroth Winson, on 06 June 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

It is not that we are trying not to follow Zellbrigen, it is that some people do not understand how it works.

It still feels like Clan players are trying to justify not fighting the way a real Clan warrior would be conditioned to, whether or not Zell is in effect. We get it, you're not actually Clan players, you're not crippled by being conditioned from childhood to follow a bunch of silly rules governing how you engage enemy targets. However because of this you're lacking one of the big things that gave the Inner Sphere a fighting chance. So why shouldn't the devs install a series of parameters that force you to behave like a conditioned Clansman?

[Tterrag]

It is a pretty simple concept you act like a dick or do cheap **** and you don't get to use those fancy clan mech or weapons

[Absolon]

I might be over simplifying this, and I have not read the entire thread yet, but what about something like this to keep honor. If you challenge/Target or other wise engage an enemy you just can't shoot at anything else but that target. Likewise the members of your team as a Clan player can't lock or engage your target enemy pilot either. Nor can you taget theirs.

Now that is not to say you cant break that lock by pressing Tab, or whatever, but if you do then honor is broken, and you lose all XP/C-bills; or any other reward above the physical win of the match.

Clans are going to have a significant advantage in weapons and equipment. There needs to be a mitigating lock to keep those that choose to play the Clans in line with the way of the Clans.



Let me add, by "can't lock" I mean you just can't. The game will not let you unless you hit the key to break honor.

Edited by Absolon, 06 June 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[Furniture]

For the life of me, I can't understand why so many of my fellow Inner Sphere players are obsessed with Zellbrigen. Not just here in MWO, but also on tabletop. Zellbrigen doesn't benefit Inner Sphere players. It benefits the Clans! In tabletop, the advantage IS armies have over Clan forces is numbers. By limiting the fighting to one on one duels, the Clan warriors can prevent being swarmed by their numerically superior enemies. And with their higher pilot and gunnery skills, and their better tech, they can defeat any equivalent IS mech in a duel. So why do you even care if they do it or not?

Any smart IS player breaks Zell. In fact, every single game where a Clan player roleplays Zell, the IS player is the one who breaks it. And yet, all throughout this thread I see IS players whining about how they think Clanners will break Zell. Are you kidding me? It's never the Clanner who breaks Zell. WE break Zell at the most opportune time to get an advantage! For example, if I saw a Clanner dueling one of my fellow IS mechs, I might decide to sneak up behind him while I'm not engaged and alpha strike him in the back while he's distracted.

What's disgusting about all of this is that people only care about Zell when they feel that they will benefit from it. Most people who complain about Zell couldn't care less about canon and roleplaying for their House. They won't use canon variants, they'll use mechs that are almost exclusive to another faction (Raven), but then they'll whine and cry forever about Zell in canon because they think it gives them the advantage. Well, in canon most Clans stopped offering Zell against Inner Sphere opponents during the follow-up waves of the invasion. Also, for most Clan interpretations against the IS, if even a SINGLE IS pilot violates Zell in a single duel, Zell is off for EVERYONE in the battle. That's right, so if one guy breaks it, no more Zell for anybody - it becomes a free-for-all.

Look, Zell doesn't help us Inner Sphere pilots. Just like in tabletop, when we fight the Clans, Zell is a rule that is made to be broken. And it gets broken 10 out of 10 battles between the Inner Sphere and the Clans. And 10 out of 10 times it is the Inner Sphere player that breaks it. I do it all the time, and so has every other IS player I've seen in tabletop. The Inner Sphere wins by numerical superiority on the battlefield. If you are worried about balance, then the answer is to make it so that any Clan vs IS matches are not equal numbers, say 10 Clan vs 16 IS. If you do that, I guarantee you that no sane Clan player will violate Zell of his own will. They'll stick to using Zell to limit themselves being swarmed. They'll think it is a gift from heaven if their Inner Sphere opponents are willing to sit out and respect the duels. But we all know that we never will. How many of you would sit out for the beginning of the match while you wait for a duel to open up after a Clanner kills an IS opponent? None of you. You'd find an engaged Clan mech and shoot it in the back. This thread makes no sense.

Edited by Furniture, 06 June 2012 - 07:44 PM.

[Absolon]

Furniture, don't get me wrong I say crush them all, break the rules and turn them into radio active piles of moltent slag. I was just saying as a way to keep Clan players in line with what Clan is meant to be. I don't give a hoot one way or the other.

[Furniture]

I agree with you. It would be great if we could get them to follow Zell. The problem is that a lot of players will not have read the fluff, and not really understand how Zell works. There's no way for us to force them to read the rulebook, and so they'll have trouble roleplaying Zell, even if they want to. The way I see it is that if the developers ensure that the IS always has the numbers advantage, the Clan players who do know Zell will try their hardest to follow it, hoping that their Inner Sphere opponents will cooperate, and then they'll never try to break it of their own accord. If they do break Zell, they'll get swarmed by multiple IS mechs waiting on the sidelines. I think that the threat of death is a more powerful incentive to Zell roleplay than any of the artificial solutions that have been presented earlier in the thread. Numbers is the simplest, and most effective way to solve the balance problem and the Zell problem, I think.

[Absolon]

Makes sense. Luckily we have a solid year to year and a half for them to hammer it out lol.

[Frostiken]

Jaroth Winson, on 06 June 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

It is not that we are trying not to follow Zellbrigen, it is that some people do not understand how it works.

This.

Zell wasn't like Law of Armed Conflict for the Clans, where if you broke it you went to jail.

Zell would be, for example, deciding to be fair by not legging enemy mechs, which is a "rule" that most actual Mechwarrior players adhere to. However, if someone started legging, and 'broke Zell', you wouldn't go to Space Jail or something by legging him in return. In fact, you were expected to break Zell the second your opponent did. The point was to not break Zell first.

[Kartr]

Its not so much about enforcing Zell, and definitely not making the IS players use it. Its about forcing players to play with handicaps that mimic the Clan conditioning. Because even with Zell called off following many of the tenets of Zell would still be ingrained in the Clan pilots.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

Jaroth Winson, on 06 June 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

It is not that we are trying not to follow Zellbrigen, it is that some people do not understand how it works.

And theres those Clanners that realize its stupid to not team up on Mechs. But then I also think Tossing partial C-Charged Asteroids at planets is a better way to destroy any obstacles on the Path to Terra. Beware the Bandit Caste! We ain't yur typical Clanner!

[Jaroth Corbett]

Tterrag, on 06 June 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

It is a pretty simple concept you act like a dick or do cheap **** and you don't get to use those fancy clan mech or weapons

Define act like a dick or do cheap ****.

Furniture, on 06 June 2012 - 07:43 PM, said:

For the life of me, I can't understand why so many of my fellow Inner Sphere players are obsessed with Zellbrigen. Not just here in MWO, but also on tabletop. Zellbrigen doesn't benefit Inner Sphere players. It benefits the Clans! In tabletop, the advantage IS armies have over Clan forces is numbers. By limiting the fighting to one on one duels, the Clan warriors can prevent being swarmed by their numerically superior enemies. And with their higher pilot and gunnery skills, and their better tech, they can defeat any equivalent IS mech in a duel. So why do you even care if they do it or not?

+1 Someone who gets it. The numbers advantage is what the IS had in the novels as well. Hope there are more people like you who take the tme to check stuff out. I tip my hat to you sir.

Frostiken, on 06 June 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

This.

Zell wasn't like Law of Armed Conflict for the Clans, where if you broke it you went to jail.

Zell would be, for example, deciding to be fair by not legging enemy mechs, which is a "rule" that most actual Mechwarrior players adhere to. However, if someone started legging, and 'broke Zell', you wouldn't go to Space Jail or something by legging him in return. In fact, you were expected to break Zell the second your opponent did. The point was to not break Zell first.

You are exactly the type of person I was referring to. You know not what you speak.

For the umpteenth time, legging is not "unfair'. It does not go against Zell. I am not going to repost my points on this, i have done so many times. Use the search function. The whole legging thing from what I hear started in MW2. My first game was MW3 so that is where I can reference from. That is how the developers made that game & some people whined that it was a cheap kill. Clansmen take pride in being able to target & destroy specific parts of a mech. Let MW2 & MW3 go. This is 2012. Do some research & learn what Zell is. If you need specific source material, send me a PM.

[Krosslite]

Being a member of Clan Ghost Bear I have had a lot of practice with Bachalls. First I wish to mention that as the clans came to a planet in the IS they would offer a Bachall bidding a certain amount of mechs that even got into Galaxies. The IS folks had no idea what was going on and so did not respond correctly which caused problems.

I do feel that clanner should have a different way of earning instead of C-Bills though and possilbe reflect honor

[Frostiken]

Jaroth Winson, on 06 June 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Herp derp

Maybe you need some reading comprehension remedial courses, because whoever didn't fail you out of school should be fired.

I said practicing Zell is LIKE how people chose not to leg. It's an unspoken set of rules that aren't "real", but players chose to play by for the overall enjoyment of the game. But when people start legging, you aren't expected to sit there and whine or just get legged and take it, you're expected to leg them right back. Zell is the same way. A clansman isn't going to sneak up on a guy and fill his rear torso with missiles, but if someone else tries to do that, they've broken Zell and a Clansmen is not expected to hobble himself to fight a dishonorable opponent.

A common misconception is the role of Artillery in Clan warfare. While it's true they didn't care much for it, and it had little bearing on the small-scale engagements they practiced and preferred, Clan Arrow IV artillery did exist and there were artillery units. Hell, the Clans were the ones who had Arrow IVs that would lay MINEFIELDS.

Edited by Helmer, 07 June 2012 - 10:37 AM.
Edited for obusive and derogatory comments.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

Maybe you need some reading comprehension remedial courses, because whoever didn't fail you out of school should be fired.

I will gladly take those courses when you show me your certificates upon completion.

That is apples & oranges. The "rule" about legging was based on a reaction that came up due to certain people's problems with dying because your leg got blown off. Zell is neither unspoken nor unwritten. It is clearly defined with overall practices then practices for specific clans. It was built into the lore. Your second to last statement again shows you do not know what you are talking about.

Holy ****, get your facts straight before you make idiotic posts.

[Solidussnake]

Agree to disagree about something that won't even make it into the game anyways. Good idea.

[Skylarr]

Frostiken, on 06 June 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

This.

Zell wasn't like Law of Armed Conflict for the Clans, where if you broke it you went to jail.

Zell would be, for example, deciding to be fair by not legging enemy mechs, which is a "rule" that most actual Mechwarrior players adhere to. However, if someone started legging, and 'broke Zell', you wouldn't go to Space Jail or something by legging him in return. In fact, you were expected to break Zell the second your opponent did. The point was to not break Zell first.

By breaking Zellbringing the Clanner would lose honor amongst other Clanners. If you lost enough Honor other clanners would ignore you and not accept your challenges.

As Jaroth Wilson said Legging does not break Zellbringing. Once a Mech has lost a leg it was considered out of the fight. This prevented unneccessary waste of resources.

VoodooLou Kerensky, on 06 June 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

And theres those Clanners that realize its stupid to not team up on Mechs. But then I also think Tossing partial C-Charged Asteroids at planets is a better way to destroy any obstacles on the Path to Terra. Beware the Bandit Caste! We ain't yur typical Clanner!

In 3050 or 3051 what Clanner thought this?? You only did this on honorless Pirates and Bandit Caste. The Clans view IS Mechwarriors as Barbarrians. While not all units used Zellbringing, most did. Even when a Galaxy Commander gave oreders not to use Zellbringing most in the Galaxy did because of personnal Honor. Even after the Battle of Tukayyid as fresh unit were being brought up to cover the front so batter galaxies could rebuild the new unit Followed Zellbringing. They thought their bretheren were weak for loosing against the IS barbarians. Untill they saw first hand how the IS force operated.

Krosslite, on 06 June 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:

Being a member of Clan Ghost Bear I have had a lot of practice with Bachalls. First I wish to mention that as the clans came to a planet in the IS they would offer a Bachall bidding a certain amount of mechs that even got into Galaxies. The IS folks had no idea what was going on and so did not respond correctly which caused problems.

I do feel that clanner should have a different way of earning instead of C-Bills though and possilbe reflect honor

I think a player should receive an XP, or, a C-Bill, buff while they are follow Zellbringing and get a bonus to Faction if did not break Zellbringing during the match.

Edited by Skylarr, 06 June 2012 - 11:29 PM.

[Skylarr]

I found this on Mekwars: Legends website. I believe this are the rules Clanner follow when fighting other Clanners.

• A Warrior will never fire on a Mech already engaged with another opponent.
  
• A Warrior will never engage in physical attacks, unless he has no other forward firing weapons at his disposal.
  
• A Warrior will never fire on an unconscious pilot, unless the pilot has either refused hegira, or intentionally caused their disability. Examples of this are attempting to stand with a damaged or destroyed gyro.
  
• A Warrior will never target the Head of a Mech or Call High Shots. Use of Called Shots or Targeting Computers against other parts of a Mech is always acceptable.
  
• A Warrior will never willingly flee the field while engaged in a duel.
  
• A Warrior may break LOS during a duel, but must make every effort to return to the LOS during the next movement phase. This does not mean he must commit suicide though. Moving into the rear arc is never considered breaking LOS.
  
• A Warrior may move out of long range of his weapons, but must make every effort to return to long range during the next movement phase.
  
• A Warrior will never intentionally interfere with another zellbrigen duel. This includes blocking movement of another unit.
  
• A Warrior may ask for hegira if he meets any of the requirements listed below, but his opponent is under no obligation to grant it.
  
• A Warrior may offer hegira to a disabled foe. A disabled foe is one that meets one or more of the following criteria. If a Warrior refuses hegira, he may be fired upon.

* Missing Leg
* Two Sensor Hits
* Two Gyro Hits
* No Weapon
* Pilot has taken 4+ Hits, and is Unconscious

• A Warrior may ask for hegira or be granted it at any other time, but must eject the unit in question if it does not meet the above requirements.
  
• A Warrior will never attempt to clear or ignite a hex that is occupied by a unit that it is not in a duel against.
  
• A Warrior will never deliberately move in a way that would block a unit that they are not dueling. Deliberate is defined as taking a inferior move in terms of range, movement mods, and or firing arcs to block an opposing unit.
  
• A Warrior will never fire on a hegira unit.
  
• A Warrior will never fire on any duel eligible unit other than the current opponent.
  
• A Warrior will never place the rear side of a Mech against the map edge at the end of any phase other than deployment.
  
• A Warrior will never deliberately place an opposing unit in the radius of ECM or Active Probes that they are not dueling. Incidental exposure of ECM/Active Probes relating from a sound, tactical move during their own duel are exempt from this rule.
  
• A Warrior will never use a spotter or spot for another unit using indirect LRM fire.

[Thorn Hallis]

phelancracken, on 06 June 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

Bushido is a samurai warrior code. Zellbrigen isn't exactly the same. I have noticed that in the canon that clan warriors don't exactly perform seppuku......Bondsman yes, but serious difference there.

Thats why I wrote Bushido duel rules. I'm not saying that Zell is a 1on1 copy of the whole Bushido concept, but it was definatly inspired by it.

And members from Clan Fire Mandrills Kindra Sainze actually perform ritual suicide for failures. But of course, they are an exception.


That being said, I don't think it is a good idea to force players into a certain direction when they have several options. The Clans have developed their own culture and view of warfare over the centuries so much that they are now at a point where warfare is a form of ritualized combat between warring "siblings". Sibkos grow up with the idea of personal honor achieved through honorable behaivior on the battlefield. I think Kartr has a point when he says that each and every Clan warrior would start a battle with honorable 1v1 combat in mind. But, and thats a big BUT, its up to Clan warrior in question if he will follow Zell or not - it all depends on the opponent and if the warrior in questions thinks they are honorable enough to be faced in 1v1 combat. There are several examples in inter-Clan engagements where Zell was not followed because one side thought the opponent was not worth it. It was never ment to give one side the upper hand, it is simply a form of showing your opponent that you are not worth the honor and it makes no difference if the opponent was beaten with or without the use of Zellbriggen.

And now we, as players, come into the fray. All a player fighting for the Clans can do is to emulate the behavior of Clansmen. He didn't grow up within the culture of the Clans, so although the life of a Clansman might be known to him he does not live that life. A Clansman will have to face harsh repercussions for using dishonorable tactics, it will tarnish his reputation and probably also the reputation of his entire bloodline. A player, on the other, might only have to live with the scorn of his fellow players, but in the end it wont effect him or his play or his time in the game. Therefor I wouldn't make Zell a mandatory game rule in MWO for Clan players, I'd make it more like a bonus-way to earn extra honorpoints, an extra resource that you will not get otherwise (just think of it - only by earning a certain amount honorpoints you would be allowded to compete for an exclusive bloodname).

Now, on the topic of using Zell as a mean to balance fights between IS and Clan forces. Again, I don't think it is a good idea to implement. First of, lorewise it wouldn't make much sense. The Inner Sphere forces never expected the Clans to use Zell against them in the first place. Combining fire on one target is a common doctrine in the Inner Sphere. Second, there was no way the Inner Sphere forces could exploit Zell to their advantage. Those officers (mostly DCMS) who tried to fight honor duels against the Clans found their own troops at a severe disadvantage because of the superior tech (and on a smaller level because of the skill) of the Clans. And thirdly, the Clans broke Zell against IS forces not because it would give them the upper hand, but simply because they thought the IS forces weren't just worth it.

I think balance between Clan and IS forces should come from another source, be it numbers, be it battlevalue or be it something else none of has ever thought of.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 07 June 2012 - 01:46 AM.