174 replies to this topic

[SkyCake]

Itkovian, on 06 March 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Clearly we've been playing a different game.

Try some 8-mans for a bit, where people know better than to walk out into the open and make themselves easy target, and ECM is used abundantly.

Furthermore, LRMs are the single most easiest weapon to defend against even WITHOUT ECM. Cover exists in every map (yes, even alpine), if you walk out in the open and stay there long enough to be slaughtered by massive salvos of LRMs its not because LRMs are OP. It's your fault, you had plenty of warning and stayed out and stayed in the open (and I'm not saying you're a bad player. It happens to me too from time to time... and every single time I do it I am fully aware that I screwed up and it was my fault).

Does that mean LRMs are perfect? No, but the LAST thing they need is a nerf. Nerf them more and they become entirely worthless, like they've nearly been for the last few months in competitive drops (with this artemis fix, the PPC fix, and maybe the state rewind nerfing lights they might finally become viable in 8-mans).

Maybe they could be changed, some have been suggested in this thread already (speed them up, remove indirect fire unless actively spotted, etc.), but they certainly should not be nerfed.

Everything that was needed to be said was said here... end of thread

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Smk, on 06 March 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

You do realize that LRMs aren't even used in tourny play because they're so bad? If maps had less cover to hide behind I could see it being an issue. As it stands LRMs are just for picking off bad players in normal matches as anyone decent will just move to the nearest cover and make you useless.

Did you miss the entire part about how I never said they were too good? I said they're broken. Noticed the part how I said I basically ignored an LRM boat as I sniped it to death before its LRMs even reached me.

Edit: For clarity, my post isn't about "HURR DUR THEY MUCH DO DAMAGE", its about them being crap weapons because of bad weapon mechanics that need to be changed so they can be useful in all circumsatances, like every other weapon. Not nerf them, fix them.

Edited by mwhighlander, 06 March 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Magicbullet141]

learn 2 cover

[Yokaiko]

This is a beautiful representation as to why I'm reloading my Eve client.

[Demos]

IMHO it's not that LRMs should be nerfed, but changed.
Together with SSRM and ECM.

ECM shouldn't prevent lock-on, but delay it.
Now SSRm should have to lock-on after each salvo fired (and should have the ability to be fired like a normal SRM).
LRM should be reduced in damage per missile and a wider spread, but get higher velocity and the lock-on despite Artemis.

And free C3 should be removed.

[Harabeck]

This thread is to call for an LRM NERF?! Is this opposite day or something? I was just pondering how badly they need a buff. And keep in mind, I don't use them myself.

As someone who just pugs, I find LRMs to be completely laughable. Between teammates with ecm and use of cover, I hardly take any damage from LRMs. I mean, congratulations on finding players that will stand in the open for you, but it's incredibly easy to avoid LRMs altogether.

[Praehotec8]

Looking at my weapon stats after a few games since yesterday, my average LRM hit percent is about 30-60%. By contrast, most of my other weapon systems range closer to 80%. Going with say, 50% hit with two LRM 15s and 3 tons of ammo (a common build for me), I can deal 486 damage if I expend all of my ammo. Assuming 30%, that number goes to 291. That seems actualy fairly reasonable given that :
A.) I rarely expend all of my ammo by the end of the match for various reasons.
B.) LRM15s are generally the largest weapon I run (in this type of build), with others being primarly backup.

There may be some issue with boating 4X LRM15 or such, but that is balanced by the fact that assaults running thus are depriving their team of a valuable damage soaker and close range death-dealer, putting their brawlers at risk. Heavies running more LRMs are often glass cannons and a single light can take out the paper-thin armor they are likely to be wearing. Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that LRMs shouldn't be able to get kills. If they can't kill, they aren't respected, and people ignore them. Plus, as much as indirect fire support is a SUPPORT role, everyone likes to get a kill now and again. I think that LRMs are more balanced compared to other weapons than people think. LRMs are dangerous, like any other (well, most) weapon and should be treated as such.

Again, I think making C3 an addon in some way is not a bad thing, but LRMs are not overpowered.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Demos, on 06 March 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

IMHO it's not that LRMs should be nerfed, but changed.
Together with SSRM and ECM.

ECM shouldn't prevent lock-on, but delay it.
Now SSRm should have to lock-on after each salvo fired (and should have the ability to be fired like a normal SRM).
LRM should be reduced in damage per missile and a wider spread, but get higher velocity and the lock-on despite Artemis.

And free C3 should be removed.

Exactly.

Harabeck, on 06 March 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

This thread is to call for an LRM NERF?! Is this opposite day or something?

No you tard, we want LRM's fixed. Not Nerf. Go read the thread again.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

LRMs can be dodged, avoided, or otherwise circumvented. I am FULLY aware of this. This is NOT my point at all.

My point is that ASSISTED FIRING with the C3 system causes LRMs to have too much presence when allies are present at your target, without needing either a NARC or TAG or LOS to do so. I already stated that I feel they should remain otherwise unchanged.

Can I dodge or stay in cover? Yes, and I do. Can I reasonably do it when the LRM boat has a friend harrying me? Hell naw. Should that be part of the game? Yes. Should it require TAG/NARC to be that effective? Unquestionably.

All I want changed is how much effort/equipment is required for LRMs to function and continue functioning in their

>CURRENT STATE<

Please read more thoroughly next time.

[Khobai]

Fixing missiles/ecm is incredibly easy.

1) Balance LRMs and Streak without ECM in mind.
2) Change ECM so it has no effect on missiles whatsoever. ECM should not grant stealth either.
3) Add Null Signature System to the game so players that want stealth can get it with the properly balanced downside.

Edited by Khobai, 06 March 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Trauglodyte, on 06 March 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

And that accuracy of 30% is because people are ducking behind cover. This isn't hard but I'll try it again:

In TT, if I'm standing still, you have to roll dice to see if you hit (step 1). Then, if you hit, you roll dice again to see how many missiles hit (step 2). Finally, you roll dice to see where each cluster of missiles hit (step 3). In MWO, if I'm standing still and you fire LRMs at me, you hit with all of them. The only time you get partial hits or misses is if someone ducks behind cover, AMS shoots down some of the missiles, they enter an ECM bubble and you lose targetting, they exceed 1000m and your missiles self destruct, or they enter 179m or closer and your missiles don't arm.

First, don't care about TT rules.

Second, 30% hit rate is a 30% hit rate.

I do not fire from 1000m.

I am a fast moving speed tweak equipped, advanced sensor 2, tag using Centurion with 2 LRM 15's.

I spend a good amount of time in direct LOS firing, to go along with indirect firing and some spotting.

But in the end, I'm sitting at a 30% hit rate.

That is fine.

And that is NOT against good players. It drops signifigantly against good players.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Khobai, on 06 March 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Fixing missiles/ecm is incredibly easy.

1) Balance LRMs and Streak without ECM in mind.
2) Change ECM so it has no affect on missiles whatsoever. ECM should not grant stealth either.
3) Add Null Signature System to the game so players that want stealth can get it with the properly balanced downside.

Its not quite that simple, but its such a complex issue regarding LRM's sucky weapon mechanics that those suggestions would definitely help in the grand scheme of things.

+1

[Harabeck]

mwhighlander, on 06 March 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

No you tard, we want LRM's fixed. Not Nerf. Go read the thread again.

If by "we" you mean "I". Don't jump down my throat because you're the dissenting voice and I'm commenting on the majority.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

To make this more clear, you are talking about theoretical mumbo jumbo.

Go play a few games and show me you hitting 100% of the time and doing amazing damage and getting tons of kills with your LRM boat.

Go for it.

I posted my statistics.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Harabeck, on 06 March 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

If by "we" you mean "I". Don't jump down my throat because you're the dissenting voice and I'm commenting on the majority.

Then my apologies.

[Yokaiko]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 March 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

To make this more clear, you are talking about theoretical mumbo jumbo.

Go play a few games and show me you hitting 100% of the time and doing amazing damage and getting tons of kills with your LRM boat.

Go for it.

I posted my statistics.

In this video, most of those headshots are Highlander....http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TDuJ3l9jiXY

I've seen him click off 4 in row just riding along dead.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I can't watch videos at work.

I've never gotten a head shot with LRM's.

I'll play another 6 or 7 games tonight and see if I do. But I don't know why he would have a different experience.

[Yokaiko]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 06 March 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

I can't watch videos at work.

I've never gotten a head shot with LRM's.

I'll play another 6 or 7 games tonight and see if I do. But I don't know why he would have a different experience.

well they are happening now from what I hear.

...and I haven't logged in since PGI went stupid.

[Trauglodyte]

Khobai, on 06 March 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

Fixing missiles/ecm is incredibly easy.

1) Balance LRMs and Streak without ECM in mind.
2) Change ECM so it has no effect on missiles whatsoever. ECM should not grant stealth either.
3) Add Null Signature System to the game so players that want stealth can get it with the properly balanced downside.

The whole issues pretty much stems from LRM vs ECM arms race. In CB, LRMs sucked cause they were at 1.0 and SRMs were at 2.0 but everyone had normal armor. Armor levels were doubled cause direct fire weapons were too easy to use and thus causing too much damage so, instead of boosting speed, LRM damage was doubled and SRM damage was increased by 50%. Then, people complained about the damage so LRMs were reduced to 1.5 per. Then people complained that they did too much damage. So, Artemis was fixed and damage was boosted to 1.9 per. Then people complained about broken Artemis so it was fixed and damage was dropped to 1.8 per. Then people argued about too much damage vs "lol, lrn2play and use cover".

ECM came into play and PGI decides to nerf lock-on weapons by way of anti-lock, anti-sensor data. Now, LRMs suck if you have ECM and are too beastly if you don't. Artemis is changed slightly this last patch and LRMs are now slow moving 1000m AC/20s.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Yokaiko, on 06 March 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

well they are happening now from what I hear.

...and I haven't logged in since PGI went stupid.

I'm not saying they don't happen.

I played 6 games last night as an LRM boat. And like I said I don't stand behind things and fire, I go out and get LOS and try to stand about 400-500m and blow crap up. And didn't get any.

Maybe 2 LRM 15's isn't enough to do that? I don't know.

But I can show my statistics, 30% hit rate. Against PUG's. Not against really good players.

That seems fine.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 06 March 2013 - 02:10 PM.