562 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

Helbrecht, on 05 May 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

weapon stabilization has been on main battletanks since the 80's. what stabilization means is the gun will stay on target as the tank rolls over terrain. so your real world analogy has no bearing. the fact of the matter is simply people actually think jumpsniping is super easy in reality you have to jump aquire your target aim and kick off a shot in about 3-5 seconds. most people who are crying are brawlers running accross open terrain getting pummeled. i saw these same type of threads on guassapuls, on 40 jagers, on lrm stalkers, on splat cats, etc etc. the underlying problem is you cannot tell people thier bad at the game.

Yes, but those weapons are not counteracting G-Force numbers greater than 1.0. Modern fighter jets like F-16s do not have such technology on their cannons...because it would be a ridiculous thing to attempt to implement when the craft can pull 9.5 Gs.

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are thier alot of jumpsnipers? yes the reason is a few things 1 is ppcs being the one all do all weapon. 2 is being highlanders being released the highlander sole advatage over other assaults is it can jump it does not have near the firepower of a atlas or a stalker or even a awesome.

This is utterly false, play around in mechromancer or mwo-smurfy and see what you can build. A Highlander with jump jets can actually load out more than an Awesome and achieve results similar to stalkers and atlas mechs.

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Yes, the space shuttle analogy doesn't really work as it doesn't have a huge computer controlled gyroscope with a human neural interface to control it.

Basically I'm just worried that the devs might cave to the pressure and implement a bad decision. In all my games there might be only 2-3 "poptarts" and nobody cares. They just get on with it and play the game.

Like all other metas, it will pass. They have already said they are retuning weapon dps, heat balancing PPC's and fixing LRM's. Any one of those upcoming changes can / will remove a lot of the supposed issue. They are all also purely tweaks to established game systems.

Anyone with even basic understanding of scientific theory will tell you too many changes close together will ruin your analysis. Something like JJ shake adds a completely new variable to the equation. While this can be a good thing (ECM), in this instance my personal thoughts are it could have a significant negative impact.

It will only pass if one of 2 conditions are radically changed...jump jets or PPCs. Since PPCs are not really out of round in normal gameplay...what is the obvious move?

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The Space Shuttles flew quite a bit higher than a Highlander. Anyways, any real world comparisons are of limited use for game balance. Should JJ shake be added? Let's evaluate that based on game balance, and not real world comparisons. After all, the moment you start critically evaluating all the numbers in Battletech you'll notice that all weaponry is incredibly short ranged compared to real weaponry, and it's all downhill from there.

Yes, but you have to think in terms of map size for your example. I think it's relevant to have them scaled the way they are in terms of range. Though, the physics of the map for any size should and could be realistic, especially considering the size and type of objects running around on these maps.

Personally, it's not something I am overly concerned about, jump snipe or don't...but I dislike people whining about "JJs shouldn't be nerfed cause that's how I play the game and it will ruin my fun!!!" The reality is, "your fun" breaks the laws of physics, and if immersion is what they're looking for (the developers), then realistic physics make far more sense than changing something that isn't broken to accomodate jump snipers, specifically, just because they're noisy about it.

[Helbrecht]

so what your tring to tell me is that its jumpjets and not ppcs that are the problem?
EH! wrong

the cataphraft 3d has been out for 4 months it has jumpjets we didnt start seeing the rash of jumpsniper untill AFTER the ppc patch and HSR for ppcs and balistics. ppc's were utterly useless untill thier heat was toned and you can actually score hits with them. you cannot tell me its one thing when the problem exploded over night with those two patches.

the cataphraft which started all this has a 35 point alpha ( 2ppc/erppc 1 guass rifle) 30 tons of weapons wraped up into 35 dmg. the weapons are not insta hit you have to lead you have to aim you have to put it bluntly be a damn good shot.
any person that can hit outside of his opponents range has a decided advatage period! and now you want that taken away for gods knows why. you cant tell me you dont see the ignorance of that particular argument brotha.

jump jetting is a viable skill based tactic period end of discussion. if your against that skill based tactic than that tells me your against skill.

[Deathlike]

Partial HUD bug fix in current patch - soon more culling of the evil:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2330254

[Gyrok]

Helbrecht, on 07 May 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

so what your tring to tell me is that its jumpjets and not ppcs that are the problem?
EH! wrong

the cataphraft 3d has been out for 4 months it has jumpjets we didnt start seeing the rash of jumpsniper untill AFTER the ppc patch and HSR for ppcs and balistics. ppc's were utterly useless untill thier heat was toned and you can actually score hits with them. you cannot tell me its one thing when the problem exploded over night with those two patches.

the cataphraft which started all this has a 35 point alpha ( 2ppc/erppc 1 guass rifle) 30 tons of weapons wraped up into 35 dmg. the weapons are not insta hit you have to lead you have to aim you have  to put it bluntly be a damn good shot.
any person that can hit outside of his opponents range has a decided advatage period! and now you want that taken away for gods knows why. you cant tell me you dont see the ignorance of that particular argument brotha.

jump jetting is a viable skill based tactic period end of discussion. if your against that skill based tactic than that tells me your against skill.

How is the fact that PPCs actually work now effected at all by the fact that JJs were broken before? The PPC fix only made the problem surface! PPCs should be an effective weapon...they cost a boat load of C-Bills, they're heavy, and they generate a lot of heat! If they didn't hit very often at all, then they would be worthless basically.
Now, I disagree with the Gauss Cannon changes...I don't think it should play like it's made out of plastic and explodes easily...especially considering it weighs 15 tons! If you build a Gauss build, you shouldn't be penalized for building around it. You aren't with AC/20s...why should you be with Gauss? I think that the long range weapons are a great advantage and a fair cost in weight and heat as they are...but JJs were broken before all of this, and you're simply deluding yourself if you think otherwise. In the table top game, they made the rules as they did because JJs were for strategic repositioning or obstacles. They are not for a slow controlled ascent and descent...it doesn't work that way, and it's most certainly not in the spirit of the original intent the way they work now.

[Helbrecht]

dude he cannot EVER say tabletop is balanced in anyway shape or form. in TT jumping gives you a + 3 to hit BUT targeting computers+ pulse compleltly negate this so mechs like black pythons pirahas firestarter OB could all do it. were any of these emchs banned on the mekwars servers nope! why because thiers way of beating them. just like now thiers ways of beating jumpsnipers. but people dont want to actually have to think they would rather the programmers rewrite the game to account for them being dumb. will the devs put in JJ shake? maybe maybe not. but i can guarentee you threads like the one we see will continue to pop up for the simple reason people never ever want to admit they screwed up. the one that admit to themselves ok i screwed up how can i fix it are the one who become aces.

[Syllogy]

Notes from NGNG Podcast #71 put up.

[BlueSanta]

Are we going to be seeing the long-awaited missile fix before or after missile HSR?

Also, we've heard Garth say that ballistic HSR needs tuning to be more reliable with hit registration. Any word on if this tuning is being done?

[Syllogy]

HSR will follow the missile fix. Missile fix is locked in for the 21st. HSR may or may not be ready for that patch, but is in testing.

No word on the rest of Ballistic HSR, but I'm assuming it'll be in the next patch.

[BlueSanta]

A fix before HSR is bass ackwards. See: PPCs.

[Gyrok]

Helbrecht, on 08 May 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

dude he cannot EVER say tabletop is balanced in anyway shape or form. in TT jumping gives you a + 3 to hit BUT targeting computers+ pulse compleltly negate this so mechs like black pythons pirahas firestarter OB could all do it. were any of these emchs banned on the mekwars servers nope! why because thiers way of beating them. just like now thiers ways of beating jumpsnipers. but people dont want to actually have to think they would rather the programmers rewrite the game to account for them being dumb. will the devs put in JJ shake? maybe maybe not. but i can guarentee you threads like the one we see will continue to pop up for the simple reason people never ever want to admit they screwed up. the one that admit to themselves ok i screwed up how can i fix it are the one who become aces.

I am not saying that I care about jumpsnipers...though you clearly do. I am saying, that for the sake of immersion...turn on the real physics!

In a mech like a raven, you might have impact tremors from an Atlas that weighs 3 times what your mech weighs. Jump jets would in no way shape or form be at all usable.

If you think you could honestly target something well enough to hit a white whale on a black background under the forces of just a commercial airliner take off...you're insane. If you think multiplying the G Forces by 5-10 times to get enough thrust to lift off would make it easier...you're simply uneducated.

JJs are broken...they have been...this isn't new, this isn't PPCs that are the problem. The problem is, physics don't exist in MWO...they should.

EDIT: For whoever said a Highlander with JJs was weak...here's one with a 70 pt Alpha + JJ


http://mechromancer....1,0,1,0,0,0,0,0

Edited by Gyrok, 09 May 2013 - 07:14 PM.

[Darc Horse]

I think the JJ shake issue is way overblown. Instead of all the "science professors" pulling facts out of thin air maybe everyone should just check the readily available 100s of youtube videos of rocket cams, harrier jet cams, cockpit cams. Yes there is some shaking but nothing to get really worked up over. I'm sure PGI isn't fixing to make shooting from jumping too hard or un-fun for the jump capable. Frankly I don't see why cockpit shake in the air could be any worse than on a mech going over 100kph...

Edited by Darc Horse, 10 May 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[Gyrok]

Darc Horse, on 10 May 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

I think the JJ shake issue is way overblown.   Instead of all the "science professors" pulling facts out of thin air maybe everyone should just check the readily available 100s of youtube videos of rocket cams, harrier jet cams, cockpit cams.  Yes there is some shaking but nothing to get really worked up over.  I'm sure PGI isn't fixing to make shooting from jumping too hard or un-fun for the jump capable.  Frankly I don't see why cockpit shake in the air could be any worse than on a mech going over 100kph...

Yes, you're right...for crafts that weigh perhaps...20,000 pounds.  Sure.

However, for crafts that weigh 180,000 pounds...do you have any youtube video from their cockpits?  Because the space shuttle is as close as you're going to get to that weight class...and the video from that launch has a great deal of shaking.

As for traveling at speed, they have technology now that can make tanks stable at 65+ MPH...so I don't see a reason for them not to have that in this timeline.

However, if we were talking about aerodynamic crafts in flight...there wouldn't be much shaking...instead...we are talking about 90 tons bricks flying via rocket boosters bolted to them.  That is a violent form of flight.

Edited by Gyrok, 10 May 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Darc Horse]

Gyrok, on 10 May 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Yes, you're right...for crafts that weigh perhaps...20,000 pounds. Sure.

However, for crafts that weigh 180,000 pounds...do you have any youtube video from their cockpits? Because the space shuttle is as close as you're going to get to that weight class...and the video from that launch has a great deal of shaking.

As for traveling at speed, they have technology now that can make tanks stable at 65+ MPH...so I don't see a reason for them not to have that in this timeline.

However, if we were talking about aerodynamic crafts in flight...there wouldn't be much shaking...instead...we are talking about 90 tons bricks flying via rocket boosters bolted to them. That is a violent form of flight.

Yeah I'm watching vids of space shuttles and larger rockets too. They arn't shaking that much even from the cockpit views. Plus you cant really compare the force they are using to mech jump-jets unless said mechs are able to jump into orbit....If people want to say there is a lot of shake going on I want to see proof. So far I'm seeing very little in everything I watch.

[Gyrok]

The issue is, the space shuttle is aerodynamic and built for flight.

Mechs with Jump Jets are built for combat with JJs added as an after thought.

Now, having said that, the thrust of the rockets to lift off a mech weighing the same weight, would not be different, the burn duration and fuel consumed would be. In order to break the force of gravity, you need the same thrust to get off the ground. The only difference between the shuttle and a 90 ton Highlander is how long the rockets burn.



View from the Rocket boosters on the shuttle.

Additionally, consider, the camera in the cockpit is mounted to the craft itself, it would shake less than something strapped into a seat. Watch the astronauts through liftoff in the cockpit. They are pinned into the seat and shaking pretty heavily.

That is what I am talking about...the thrust required to lift these things off the ground would pin you to your seat, and leave you shaking heavily during ascent. Additionally, when the rockets cut off, your mech would act like a brick dropped out of a 10 story window. There would be no pause at the top...you would instantly drop at terminal velocity. The only reason aircraft don't drop like a rock when engines cut out is because they're designed to fly! Mechs are not! An object shaped like a metal brick can fly straight up with enough thrust, but as soon as the thrust stops...you're going to drop like the rock you are.

JJs in this game are a complete farce...


For example...when the rocket boosters fall off the shuttle launch craft after they're used up...do they "glide" back to earth, or do they drop like a pointy nosed rock?

They drop like a rock...they have no wings to fly. The rocket boosters only weight about 15000 pounds each by the way...less than 1/10th the weight of a 90 ton mech. Additionally, when you start falling in a mech that weighs 90 tons, you hit terminal velocity nearly instantly...which would be close to 200 mph for an object of that size, shape, weight, etc. When 90 tons hits the earth at 200 mph.

The energy of such an impact would be: E = 1/2*(112,500kg)*(7.407 m/s)^2 where E = 3,086,080.26 Joules, which is equivalent to 2,276,175.99 ft/lbs of impact force, which is equivalent to 1 ton of TNT exploding under your mech when you land.

Perhaps that puts things a little more into perspective...? A bomb with a 2,000 pound equivalent warhead exploding has a lethal blast radius of approximately 400 yards. Understand how it's not realistic yet?

[Therrinian]

Gyrok, on 10 May 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Additionally, when you start falling in a mech that weighs 90 tons, you hit terminal velocity nearly instantly...which would be close to 200 mph for an object of that size, shape, weight, etc.

WRONG, how fast something drops is independant of mass. (See highschool physics.)
Also momentum needs to be be built up, at the apex of any parabolic flight such as JJ you have a brief moment nearly no velocity, you do in fact hang there for a short time. (Also see highschool physics.)

EDIT: The space shuttle footage is made by a highly stabilized camera, not simply straped to the booster rocket. Such launches shake SO much that in fact the paint peels off the craft.

Edited by Therrinian, 11 May 2013 - 04:42 AM.

[Gyrok]

Therrinian, on 11 May 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

WRONG, how fast something drops is independant of mass. (See highschool physics.) Also momentum needs to be be built up, at the apex of any parabolic flight such as JJ you have a brief moment nearly no velocity, you do in fact hang there for a short time. (Also see highschool physics.) EDIT: The space shuttle footage is made by a highly stabilized camera, not simply straped to the booster rocket. Such launches shake SO much that in fact the paint peels off the craft.

Actually, the formula for terminal velocity is:




Where:

= terminal velocity, = mass of the falling object, = acceleration due to gravity, = drag coefficient, = density of the fluid through which the object is falling, and = projected area of the object.


Note, the M for mass...see physics 101...or wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia....rminal_velocity

This can be shown by several different examples...

A human freefalling in a "Flat"; formation with arms and legs spread creates more drag relative to mass and terminal velocity will be less than if they tuck their arms and legs in a "toothpick" configuration. The maximum terminal velocity achieved in this manner is approximately ~150 mph.

You forget, gravity is a force acting on an object, and the mass and density of the object will directly effect how severely gravity acts on it.

Also, you make the mistake of assuming parabolic flight...these jump snipers are mostly straight up and down...which is a vertical column and not parabolic (you could argue semantics about slightly varied trajectory, however, the fact remains that you would have a window of opportunity approximately 25% of the length of the current window). Additionally, what about the impact upon the ground when your 90 T mech hits with 2.2 mil ft/lbs of force (3.4 mil Joules)? Your mech is going to just come away unscathed from that collision? I doubt it.

EDIT: Corrected the "gremlins" that fubar'ed my post.

Edited by Gyrok, 18 May 2013 - 01:49 PM.

[Therrinian]

unreadable,

But two identical shapes with different mass will drop equaly as fast, the 'M' cancels out.

Jump are parabolic even if the horizontal coordinate is 0.
Not that it matters as most experienced poptards always do latteral jumps so they are much harder to hit.

[Joe Mallad]

Therrinian, on 12 May 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

unreadable,

But two identical shapes with different mass will drop equaly as fast, the 'M' cancels out.

Jump are parabolic even if the horizontal coordinate is 0.
Not that it matters as most experienced poptards always do latteral jumps so they are much harder to hit.

what? Where did you learn physics from?

[Syllogy]

Minor updates, including the HUD hotfix.

I'd like to get a decent pic of the Cobra camo pattern, but I'm not a fan of the one that was recently released.

[xRaeder]

This is great and all... but no where in here is there an address to the high alpha strike nature of this game right now. It kills the game for me, and I bet it does for a lot of new players as well, who get two shotted and stop playing.