170 replies to this topic

[Foust]

Major Scumbag, on 13 March 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Weapon system with 1000M range. Indirect fire. Issue is not LRM. Its boating the LRM. The boaters I have seen just sit back at base and hide till they see skirmishes. Yes terrian is key to avoid them but sometimes you cant. They also top the damage charts. Doesnt seem right to reward somebody for hanging back avoding all conflicts. Alot of people say take out the LRM boaters first. 1 main issue is getting to them. Now the savior bonus caters to them even more so. You know when something is OP. Every match has them and few at least. It is to effective for the very little work involved. If boating LRM wasnt effective. Then you would see alot less of them but thats not the case.

I would like to submit that there is a uptick in LRM usage because of alpine. Once there was a possibility of dropping into a map that you could not see the other side of from spawn, people decided that they may want to carry something that could reach out to over 270m.

I also see a lot of comments about how no one should be able to kill without LOS. (Wait for the airstrikes and artillery modules) As someone who pilots a A1 catapult with LRM's (It does happen) I can say that everytime I fire indirectly there is a high probability that exactly zero of those missiles will have positive impact. If they do find their target it is because that target is exposed (out in the open) or fails to move. At all. Once in a blue moon I end up with a teammate who can do things like press R and keep that target in site. If I have saved a kitten or something that day I might get a TAG indicator.

Since I can not count on any of that from a random team member I have to do things to better my chances of putting these all powerful missiles on target. Now my A1, without any of those fancy energy hard points, can not mount TAG. I still stay in position where I can fire with LOS. Why would I as a non-artemis, non-TAG LRM "boat" (does 2x LRM15s constitute boating?) stay in LOS and generally with 350m? To decrease missile flight time to target. This also means that I can not just stand still and click when the target turns red, I have to actively maintain fire distance against opponents who can shut down my primary armament by closing within 180m. This also means that I can be fired on.

I put in a few games last night on the A1, 2x LRM15 2x SRM6. 9 out of 10 times that I was able to take out an opponent with my LRM's it was because that opponent was out in the open. This also took several flights of missiles to make happen, and generally while I'm trying to run away because of that whole 180m minimum range thing.

The "LRM Boats are OP" thing is a tired argument. A LRM boat is no stronger than a quad+ PPC stalker, 6xSRM6 Cat or any other popular max alpha build. When was the last time you (forum collective you, not who I quoted) got a "Warning incoming PPC's" and then had at least 5 seconds to do something about it?

LRM's bring different advantages to the battlefield, than that of the PPC or Gauss. However they also bring with them great downsides, especially if you are boating them. If I forgo the SRMs and pack on some more LRMs on that same A1, I am well and truly screwed by anything that can stay within 180m of me. If you are wondering that is pretty much everything.

[Salis777]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 13 March 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

Do you realize how ridiculous this is? SRMs FORCE me to not let them get to point blank range. Snipers FORCE me to move behind cover except during their cool downs. Laser boats FORCE me to torso twist when I'd rather be honing in my aim. High DPS from A/Cs FORCE me find cover and change my attack plan.

Uh...yeah. No kidding. Every weapon in the game (ok, not flamers or MG) FORCE you to react to it if you would prefer not to die. There may be a discussion to be had on the effectiveness of LRMs, but this did not add to it.

You're missing the point, I'm not talking about 1v1 situations where we optimise our loadouts, I'm talking about team combat where one particular build (LRMs in this case) force a situation for the other team. If the other team has PPCs it does not force us to charge the ppc boat, if the other team has srms/brawlers, it doesn't force us to avoid brawling. But as you all keep stating, 'just deal with the LRM boat', i.e. it's FORCING you to do something lol.

Anyway somewhat irrelevant for me, and for most people that play a lot - but it's definitely an issue for the game in general.

Edited by Salis777, 13 March 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[NKAc Street]

They should just put lrms back to the way they were. There was no reason to buff them except to show an admission that ecm is too powerful.

[Salis777]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

They should just put lrms back to the way they were. There was no reason to buff them except to show an admission that ecm is too powerful.

Yeah they were fine 2 weeks ago, I agree.

[Calem]

Salis777, on 13 March 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

You're missing the point [...]

Nope, he nailed it dead on. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

They should just put lrms back to the way they were. There was no reason to buff them except to show an admission that ecm is too powerful.

This is funny, cause my data doesn't show an increase in damage but a slight decrease. Flight pattern now is more uniform, sure, but that's just prettification. Reverting of the flight pattern would make me chuckle indeed, especially if it made above posters happier.

[NKAc Street]

Calem, on 13 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

Nope, he nailed it dead on. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.



This is funny, cause my data doesn't show an increase in damage but a slight decrease. Flight pattern now is more uniform, sure, but that's just prettification. Reverting of the flight pattern would make me chuckle indeed, especially if it made above posters happier.

Anyone you hit is getting damaged mostly in the center torso now so you need less to cripple or kill them. Most of the time the lrms hit someone who has to move out of cover from another enemy, gets hit by the lrms and is almost dead and the enemy hits them with a medium laser to finish them off, so of course you are doing less damage with them.

There was no good reason to change them, they need to just put them back like they were and leave them alone for good.

[Foust]

I think it is important to note that for Artemis to provide its benefit, the firer must maintain line of site to the target until the missiles impact otherwise the bonus is negated.

Also if the target is taking all the missiles to the center torso, the target is doing nothing but watching them impact.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Foust, on 13 March 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

I think it is important to note that for Artemis to provide its benefit, the firer must maintain line of site to the target until the missiles impact otherwise the bonus is negated.

Also if the target is taking all the missiles to the center torso, the target is doing nothing but watching them impact.

That's exactly right. I don't think people get that.

LET ME STATE IT AGAIN ARTEMIS DOES NOT WORK WITHOUT LOS.

I've died to a huge barrage of missiles, know what I was doing? Running directly towards the LRM boats in a straight line in the open.

Who's fault is that? My stupid ***.

[Salis777]

Foust, on 13 March 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

I think it is important to note that for Artemis to provide its benefit, the firer must maintain line of site to the target until the missiles impact otherwise the bonus is negated.

Also if the target is taking all the missiles to the center torso, the target is doing nothing but watching them impact.

I've watched plenty of <100kph mechs running at full speed die in one salvo from my TBT with 30 alrms, mostly torso damage. Not sure what other evidence you need? Go fire at someone brawling your team, its pretty clear the lrms are dropping them.

[Xenosphobatic]

You know what, you're right. LRM's aren't op.

They're BORING. Boring to fight against, boring to fight using, and utterly boring to lose to. Move circle to red square, wait, fire, repeat until ammo reserves are gone (sixteen tons of LRMS! HAHA!).


BORING

[Sprouticus]

Hamm3r, on 13 March 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Ever had 4 different streams of LRM spam all converging on YOU.....

No, I haven't. I've had them TRY to converge on me....

[Baltasar]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Anyone you hit is getting damaged mostly in the center torso now so you need less to cripple or kill them. Most of the time the lrms hit someone who has to move out of cover from another enemy, gets hit by the lrms and is almost dead and the enemy hits them with a medium laser to finish them off, so of course you are doing less damage with them.

There was no good reason to change them, they need to just put them back like they were and leave them alone for good.

Tested them, w/o artemis the missiles spread out over the mech more damage is done to the, usually, than other areas.
With artemis, damage is still spread out but greater concentration on CT and a little bit more with TAG

Now this was done, on testing grounds, so mechs were stationary and I was stationary at the time of firing. However, I did notice one thing, The only time the majority of the missiles were hitting CT was when the mech was standing directly facing my missiles. From the sides the missiles barely scratched the CT.

Lessons learned. Don't run strait ahead into an LRM boat. Torso twisting is your friend. All missiles ARE NOT hitting just CT. Artemis is providing its benefit as well as tag. Elevation does change spread as well. The higher you are the more damage is done to the head left, and right torsos and CT. The lower you are the damage will spread to the feet and less to the head.

Edited by Baltasar, 13 March 2013 - 10:08 AM.

[Sprouticus]

Xenosphobatic, on 13 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

You know what, you're right. LRM's aren't op.

They're BORING. Boring to fight against, boring to fight using, and utterly boring to lose to. Move circle to red square, wait, fire, repeat until ammo reserves are gone (sixteen tons of LRMS! HAHA!).


BORING

If they were that easy to use, everyone would use them. It is that simple.


Running LRM's has a low difficulty for basic use, and very high difficulty for a great player. I personally am just ok with them. A good LRM player is always in the right spot to support his teammate regardless of terrain, always aware of the enemy and stays at range, avoids issues with ECM, etc.

Sure, aiming is easy. Point and shoot. Except when you have to use tag (and keep it on the target of course). But that is not what the playstyle of LRM's is about. It is about anticipation, positioning, target priority, etc.


If you find that boring, don't play them. Personally I find short range furballs annoying and boring much of the time. I perosnally prefer the mid range game with large lasers and PPC's. But that's me.

The beauty of this game is that with a few exceptions, it supports multiple playstyles.

Baltasar, on 13 March 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Tested them, w/o artemis the missiles spread out over the mech more damage is done to the, usually, than other areas.
With artemis, damage is still spread out but greater concentration on CT and a little bit more with TAG

Now this was done, on testing grounds, so mechs were stationary and I was stationary at the time of firing. However, I did notice one thing, The only time the majority of the missiles were hitting CT was when the mech was standing directly facing my missiles. From the sides the missiles barely scratched the CT.

Lessons learned. Don't run strait ahead into an LRM boat. Torso twisting is your friend. All missiles ARE NOT hitting just CT. Artemis is providing its benefit as well as tag. Elevation does change spread as well. The higher you are the more damage is done to the head left, and right torsos and CT. The lower you are the damage will spread to the feet and less to the head.

I am always shocked that more people dont twist as the missiles get to their mech. That alone will spread the damage tremendously. Turn all the way to the left (or right depending on mech). When just about to get hit, start torso twisting, keep twisting until the barrage is complete. Usually it only lasts for half a twist. Sometimes even less.

[Baltasar]

Xenosphobatic, on 13 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

You know what, you're right. LRM's aren't op.

They're BORING. Boring to fight against, boring to fight using, and utterly boring to lose to. Move circle to red square, wait, fire, repeat until ammo reserves are gone (sixteen tons of LRMS! HAHA!).


BORING

Boring for you. Personally, I think its boring (and stupid) loading up a bunch of brawling builds and just running into each other head on. I like playing my treb-7m vying for the best and deadliest angle to launch my LRMs to decimate the competition. I agree I hate playing LRM boat assault mechs. Those are boring so I don't play them. But punishing people with poor tactics is totally worth it.

[FrDrake]

Wow a guy can't eat lunch and do a little work without some serious business taking place.

Rock Paper Scissors would be boring if you could only throw Rock.

ECM/lights/Snipers > LRMs > brawlers/slows

But instead of flat out losing to your foil at least in this game you can fight back (unless you're the LRM boat with nothing but LRMs and a TAG).

LRMs are a component of ROLE WARFARE, it's not the brawling Atlas's job to go catch LRM boats, it's the lights/fast mediums or your own snipers (sniper atlas can kill LRM boat) that are supposed to deal with them. Many matches have been won because lights disrupt the LRM rain of the enemy.

Slow mech gets killed by incredibly slow moving long range weapon that gives you a warning and is nullified by any cover. That's not OP, that's working as intended.

[NKAc Street]

Foust, on 13 March 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

I think it is important to note that for Artemis to provide its benefit, the firer must maintain line of site to the target until the missiles impact otherwise the bonus is negated.

Also if the target is taking all the missiles to the center torso, the target is doing nothing but watching them impact.

Not so much so based on my experience both using them and getting hit. Sometimes you get hit while trying to dodge other enemy fire and you cannot always stay in cover to avoid lrms, while I'm doing that and get hit by one salvo my center torso in my cat was red. I've fired upon someone saw the missle change course and follow them as they were trying to dodge the slavo and I turned their center torso red as well.

[Sheraf]

Xenosphobatic, on 13 March 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

You know what, you're right. LRM's aren't op.

They're BORING. Boring to fight against, boring to fight using, and utterly boring to lose to. Move circle to red square, wait, fire, repeat until ammo reserves are gone (sixteen tons of LRMS! HAHA!).


BORING

You also do the same with your direct fire weapons.
Move crosshair over mech(which is bigger than the square LRM mech will see)
Press mouse button, repeat until you die or your enemy die, then repeat the entire process

How boring

Oh and you can just keep repeating that process forever because laser don't run out of ammunition.

[RickySpanish]

Two things when fighting mechs using LRMs:

1) If they're pure LRM boats, try and stand in front of them to catch some or all of their volley so it doesn't reach your team mates

2) If they're smart, they'll be amongst their own team-mates instead of sniping away like idiots. In this case you're screwed.

[Baltasar]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Not so much so based on my experience both using them and getting hit. Sometimes you get hit while trying to dodge other enemy fire and you cannot always stay in cover to avoid lrms, while I'm doing that and get hit by one salvo my center torso in my cat was red. I've fired upon someone saw the missle change course and follow them as they were trying to dodge the slavo and I turned their center torso red as well.

Well the CT torso on a Cat soaks up most damage anyways, try torso twisting in the missiles and it would help with the damage, but if its a lot of of missiles its just going to hurt plain and simple artemis or no.

The kinda agree that the dramatic course change on missiles is a little much (as it is with streaks). At least in the sense of the change after a mech regains lock and the missiles do a crazy turn to get back on course.

[Calem]

NKAc Street, on 13 March 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Anyone you hit is getting damaged mostly in the center torso now so you need less to cripple or kill them. Most of the time the lrms hit someone who has to move out of cover from another enemy, gets hit by the lrms and is almost dead and the enemy hits them with a medium laser to finish them off, so of course you are doing less damage with them.

There was no good reason to change them, they need to just put them back like they were and leave them alone for good.

I took the liberty of loading into the environment which would support your false claim best: Testing grounds, against a stationary atlas, and fired 4 x 30 ALRMs into it, with TAG applied:



As you can see, even against a stationary target, with Artemis, and TAG, LRMs hit a ) all over the place b ) areas facing the incoming LRMs. Not just CT. As people including myself have been saying over and over. The Atlas was looking at 4 o'clock and thus got hit mostly into RT. It stood at 79% after eating 120 ALRMS. Stationary. With Tag. Quick probability math: Stock AS7-D 608 armour plus 50% internals = 912 points of health without items, 21% taken off = 191,52 divided by 120 LRMs = 1,596 damage per LRM. Yep, fits common averages.

Real damage is far less due to people moving and stuff, but that's not the point. Point is: LRMs don't home onto your CT, you can actively spread damage around if need be.