443 replies to this topic

[Roughneck45]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 March 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Then why oppose making the Dragon viable in competitive as well as pug play?

The defining characteristic of the Dragon is it's speed compared to other heavy mechs.

Currently, speed is not valued in the competative scene outside of lights and mediums. The firepower is the more important characteristic for the heavy selection.

So, the way to make a Dragon competative would be to increase the amount of firepower it can bring at the cost of speed, but then it stops being a Dragon and starts being a different bag for the same set of guns a phract can bring.

[HammerSwarm]

Serapth, on 18 March 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Reducing the CT would take away the one strength of the Dragon, the ability to run an XL engine.

instead of reducing the engine weight just increase the multiplier by 10% so it's on par with a medium in terms of speed for engine size.

[Serapth]

General Taskeen, on 18 March 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Reducing the CT inward allows more damage soak to the Side Torso (using them as shields) as it should be. The original Dragon had huge burly side torso's and a tiny belly. The CT on a Dragon is the first thing I shoot out, its so easy to hit.

Yes, and in MWO, that would be bad for the dragon, as 99.9% of them are running XL engines. You aiming CT is *GOOD* for Dragon pilots.

Edited by Serapth, 18 March 2013 - 11:57 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Roughneck45, on 18 March 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

The defining characteristic of the Dragon is it's speed compared to other heavy mechs.

Currently, speed is not valued in the competative scene outside of lights and mediums. The firepower is the more important characteristic for the heavy selection.

So, the way to make a Dragon competative would be to increase the amount of firepower it can bring at the cost of speed, but then it stops being a Dragon and starts being a different bag for the same set of guns a phract can bring.

But speed is everything. You take 350 engines in atlases.

The dragon isn't fast, or heavily armed.

[Roughneck45]

3rdworld, on 18 March 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

You say you don't use dragons for competitive matches.

But then say they aren't worthless?

If a mech isn't good enough to be used when you are actually trying to win, than what value does it have? Other than fun.

Spiders can be a lot of fun. But that chassis is about as worthless as it could possibly be.

With that logic, they could just remove Awesomes, spiders, most mediums, and Dragons from the game.

Fun is the main reason to play games, so its kind of hard to factor that out.

[Sayyid]

HammerSwarm, on 18 March 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

instead of reducing the engine weight just increase the multiplier by 10% so it's on par with a medium in terms of speed for engine size.

Here read this.

Hollister, on 17 April 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Here are a few of them.

FUSION ENGINE TABLE
ENGINE
RATING TONNAGE XL TONNAGE GYRO WT.
100 -----------3.0 ----------- 1.5 -------------1.0
105 ----------- 3.5 ----------- 2.0 --------------2.0
110 -----------3.5 ----------- 2.0 ----------- 2.0
115 ----------- 4.0 ----------- 2.0 ----------- 2.0
120 ----------- 4.0 ----------- 2.0 ----------- 2.0
125 ----------- 4.0 ----------- 2.0 ----------- 2.0
130 ----------- 4.5 ----------- 2.5 ----------- 2.0
135 ----------- 4.5 ----------- 2.5 ----------- 2.0
140 ----------- 5.0 ----------- 2.5 ----------- 2.0
145 ----------- 5.0 ----------- 2.5 ----------- 2.0
150 ----------- 5.5 ----------- 3.0 ----------- 2.0
155 ----------- 5.5 ----------- 3.0 ----------- 2.0
160 ----------- 6.0 ----------- 3.0 ----------- 2.0
165 ----------- 6.0 ----------- 3.0 ----------- 2.0
170 ----------- 6.5 ----------- 3.0 ----------- 2.0
175 ----------- 7.0 ----------- 3.5 ----------- 2.0
180 ----------- 7.0 ----------- 3.5 ----------- 2.0
185 ----------- 7.5 ----------- 4.0 ----------- 2.0
190 ----------- 7.5 ----------- 4.0 ----------- 2.0
195 ----------- 8.0 ----------- 4.0 ----------- 2.0
200 ----------- 8.5 ----------- 4.5 ----------- 2.0
205 ----------- 8.5 ----------- 4.5 ----------- 3.0
210 ----------- 9.0 ----------- 4.5 ----------- 3.0
215 ----------- 9.5 ----------- 5.0 ----------- 3.0
220 ----------- 10.0 ----------- 5.0 ----------- 3.0
225 ----------- 10.0 ----------- 5.0 ----------- 3.0
230 ----------- 10.5 ----------- 5.5 ----------- 3.0
235 ----------- 11.0 ----------- 5.5 ----------- 3.0
240 ----------- 11.5 ----------- 6.0 ----------- 3.0
245 ----------- 12.0 ----------- 6.0 ----------- 3.0
250 ----------- 12.5 ----------- 6.5 ----------- 3.0
255 ----------- 13.0 ----------- 6.5 ----------- 3.0
260 ----------- 13.5 ----------- 7.0 ----------- 3.0
265 ----------- 14.0 ----------- 7.0 ----------- 3.0
270 ----------- 14.5 ----------- 7.5 ----------- 3.0
275 ----------- 15.5 ----------- 8.0 ----------- 3.0
280 ----------- 16.0 ----------- 8.0 ----------- 3.0
285 ----------- 16.5 ----------- 8.5 ----------- 3.0
290 ----------- 17.5 ----------- 9.0 ----------- 3.0
295 ----------- 18.0 ----------- 9.0 ----------- 3.0
300 ----------- 19.0 ----------- 9.5 ----------- 3.0
305 ----------- 19.5 ----------- 10.0 ----------- 4.0
310 ----------- 20.5 ----------- 10.5 ----------- 4.0
315 ----------- 21.5 ----------- 11.0 ----------- 4.0
320 ----------- 22.5 ----------- 11.5 ----------- 4.0
325 ----------- 23.5 ----------- 12.0 ----------- 4.0
330 ----------- 24.5 ----------- 12.5 ----------- 4.0
335 ----------- 25.5 ----------- 13.0 ----------- 4.0
340 ----------- 27.0 ----------- 13.5 ----------- 4.0
345 ----------- 28.5 ----------- 14.5 ----------- 4.0
350 ----------- 29.5 ----------- 15.0 ----------- 4.0
355 ----------- 31.5 ----------- 16.0 ----------- 4.0
360 ----------- 33.0 ----------- 16.5 ----------- 4.0
365 ----------- 34.5 ----------- 17.5 ----------- 4.0
370 ----------- 37.0 ----------- 18.5 ----------- 4.0
375 ----------- 38.5 ----------- 19.5 ----------- 4.0
380 ----------- 41.0 ----------- 20.5 ----------- 4.0
385 ----------- 43.5 ----------- 22.0 ----------- 4.0
390 ----------- 46.0 ----------- 23.0 ----------- 4.0
395 ----------- 49.0 ----------- 24.5 ----------- 4.0
400 ----------- 52.5 ----------- 26.5 ----------- 4.0


JUMP JET WEIGHT AND CRITICAL SPACES TABLE
MECH -------------- JUMP JET ---------------- CRITICAL
TONNAGE ----------- WEIGHT ----------------- SPACES
10-55 ----------- 0.5 TONS/JUMP MP ----------- 1/JUMP JET
60-85 ----------- 1.0 TONS/JUMP MP ----------- 1/JUMP JET
90-100 ----------- 2.0 TONS/JUMP MP ----------- 2/JUMP JET


MAXIMUM BATTLEMECH ARMOR
BATTLEMECH --------- MAXIMUM
TONNAGE ----------- ARMOR
20 ------------------- 69
25-------------------89
30 ------------------- 105
35 ------------------- 119
40------------------137
45 ------------------- 153
50 ------------------- 169
55------------------185
60 ------------------- 201
65 ------------------- 211
70------------------217
75 ------------------- 231
80 ------------------- 247
85------------------263
90 ------------------- 279
95 ------------------- 293
100-----------------307

[Elandyll]

Because the Dragon is a very well balanced Mech (as in decently Fast, Decently Armored, with "decent" damage) that does nothing in particular -really- well. This is its strength, and also why it sucks in competitive play compared to other Mechs that have access to loadouts that Min/ Max Alphastrikes / have access to loads of fire and forget (LRMS/ SSRMS) and electronic warfare (ECM).

Edited by Elandyll, 18 March 2013 - 12:02 PM.

[Sayyid]

Roughneck45, on 18 March 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

The defining characteristic of the Dragon is it's speed compared to other heavy mechs.

Currently, speed is not valued in the competative scene outside of lights and mediums. The firepower is the more important characteristic for the heavy selection.

So, the way to make a Dragon competative would be to increase the amount of firepower it can bring at the cost of speed, but then it stops being a Dragon and starts being a different bag for the same set of guns a phract can bring.

I dont know what picture of the Dragon you are looking at but everyone I see looks like this one.

http://www.solaris7....Info.asp?ID=511

[Roughneck45]

Sayyid, on 18 March 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

I dont know what picture of the Dragon you are looking at but everyone I see looks like this one.

http://www.solaris7....Info.asp?ID=511

and a big honkin' center torso then?

Personally, I like it. Makes it a perfect XL engine canidate.

Edited by Roughneck45, 18 March 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[Badgerthej]

I roll a dragon and i find it my best mech to pilot even though i have bigger or faster mechs.

My problem with the dragon is probably the same as what alot have said, its got a massive superboob CT not many humanoid mechs can get cored from the side in the CT....dragons can....le-sadface

however i find this applies to my next problem....since its more likely to get nuked this way it gets prioritised....no biggie with that but it cant stand up to a one on one with many mechs.....and i'll give a general range here

lights - unless you are lucky or a decent pilot (both of which i am not) most with teh exception of some spiders will be rediculous to deal with...they can be too fast and the normal dragons have wierd fit locations that make you look like you're spazzing out when firing on them.

mediums - cicadas dont proove too much trouble unless they tank heavy weapons like ppc/lplas or the rare gause ecm cicada but most other mediums hold more reasonable firepower than the dragon.

heavies....you cant really one on one any other heavy unless you are against a poor or new pilot....a1 lrm cats tend to shut down when dragons are about cause they dont have the engine to outrun them....splats are death to dragons period...no winning ever.

assaults - need i say anything....unless you get the drop and a poor pilot or game issues you will most likely hit mud within a minute of initiating a fight.

I pilot what has affectionately been termed the charity mech by my mates (the flame) as this variant has the best loadout for any combat hands down for dragons in my experience...but thats not my next problem......it simply cant outrun anything that would be a direct danger.......not even other heavies....i have to run an xl to actually give it any reasonable fitting and even with a xl350 rocking over 100kph (just) i get run down by just about anything.....all they need to do is stay in firing range long enough to take the HUGE arse end off my mech and escaping from lights is a no no.

last problem i have is a general problem....due to the massive superboob and xl engine......streaks are murder....

without them physically reducing the model shape i cant suggest fixing the huge CT, but I can suggest chassy engine sizing....because so many "killer" fits use streaks/srms which weigh nothing those mechs can have the biggest engines meaning everything travels at 80-100ish-kph which is enough to keep dangerous targetlock with anything but lights.

[Magitek]

Yeah the Dragon does make a good pilot. If you've ever thought, 'It would be bad if I got a 45 damage alpha in the back right now.' The Dragon brings that, right there, faster than any other heavy. The big CT will make pilots learn torso twist. Remember the big right arm and use it to block shots to the CT. The big secret is to move back armor to the front of the CT RT and LT. If your getting hit in the back your in the fight too soon, or some of the last left on your team. If your not going 104 kph or over, without a AC20(FLAME only) or gauss, 'your doin it wrong.' The best Dragon is the FLAME, but the C1 and 1N are good too.

The biggest problems with the mech is the cockpit and the mech model doesn't match up and the shoulders don't move with the cockpit's shifting. Those issues drive me nuts.

I use this build mostly (this same build can work on a C1 if you don't want to spend MC):

FLAME

It can be switched up with just about any AC (minus a laser for the AC10). Just don't drop the SRM6, it's a big punch up close. The big CT nose helps aim that those missiles right where you want them.

[Gaan Cathal]

Skyscream Sapphire, on 18 March 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Dictating the time and place of engagement is the strength of the Dragon. Trying to play it differently is what leads to people calling it garbage. It has some deficiencies, maybe even needs a buff, but is from from worthless, even compared to the mechs nearby in weight.

I'm not saying it's worthless, I'm saying it's not good enough. That's why it doesn't see use in competitive play. I have a mate who runs a Dragon, does well on the scoreboard with it, and I've been thinking about how he pilots it. He capitalises on mistakes, but the mistakes it can capitalise on aren't ones that happen with any frequency in competitive play. Our W/L ratios, and thus Elos, have been increasing and I've noticed a correlating drop in his effectiveness with it, in terms of scoreboard results - especially when compared with other mechs he pilots. His best advantage now is supporting lights in the gap between first contact and the brawlers arriving. A lot of mechs will take a fight with a light or two, and overcommit without realising there's a Dragon around the corner. The problem there through isn't underspecialisation, it's overspecialisation. That's just not a big enough engagement bracket, and all too often Dragons (not just him) are fast enough to get into trouble, and not fast enough to get out. It doesn't need a huge buff to become a properly viable mech, but it does need one. And the more properly viable mechs there are, the better the state of the game.

[Vassago Rain]

Elandyll, on 18 March 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Because the Dragon is a very well balanced Mech (as in decently Fast, Decently Armored, with "decent" damage) that does nothing in particular -really- well. This is its strength, and also why it sucks in competitive play compared to other Mechs that have access to loadouts that Min/ Max Alphastrikes / have access to loads of fire and forget (LRMS/ SSRMS) and electronic warfare (ECM).

But my atlas is decent at everything, and exceptional at tanking. The dragon does...what? It loses the arm to gauss explosions?

[MustrumRidcully]

xDeityx, on 18 March 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

How do you respond to the fact that boats are not dominating the top builds? That seems to invalidate your claim rather soundly. The AS7-D-DC is the most powerful brawler in the game and yet it carries 3 different types of brawler weaponry.

Well, I can't defend the claim that it's about boating. Boating is something that can be very effective, but it's not the only way.

The D-DC is an excellent Brawler because it can specialize in 5 of the arguably best weapons in the game:
- Medium Laser
- AC/20
- SRM6
- Gauss Rifle
- Ultra AC/5
And equip the most powerful 1.5 ton item in the game:
- ECM

If we limit the weapon list to ML, AC/20 and SRM6, it should also be noted it shares the usual boating characteristics - similar range. Also, these 3 weapons and the Gauss have very simlar cooldowns, so the weapon cycle is also easy to work out.

It's not a boat, but it has some of the same perks.

[Valrin]

The dragon can go 106.9 with a max engine. The fastest heavy behind this is the 'phract at 86.6 with a max engine. I'd say 20+ kph is a fairly big margin. You are giving up firepower for speed and maneuverability with the dragon. Can other mechs stack missiles and hit a higher alpha? Sure. But I've had some very nice damage games with many kills. It's all about the pilot. Still, though, it is harder to compare this to other mediums (the cent comes to mind with the zombie variant that is so popular). It is not for everyone, but can be very effective if played correctly.

[Gregore]

Erasus Magnus, on 18 March 2013 - 09:37 AM, said:

odd enough, dragons are the mechs i fear the most. whenever i see one comming at me, i scream like a little girl.
dunno, i regularily have a hard time against dragons.

my theory to this is, that the dragons train their pilots better than other mechs, because of their "sub- parness"...

you know? Like the ae86 trained takumi and stuff...

I used to as well, but that was back when collisions were in and I liked to pilot cats.

I got so use to seeing dragons just running in circles having their arms just slightly brush the nose of my cat and then I was falling. over and over and over and over and over and over until an Atlas would show up to save me whereby the dragon would step on the Atlas' foot and the atlas would fall over as if a 1000 ton boulder ran into it.

[MustrumRidcully]

Gaan Cathal, on 18 March 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

I'm not saying it's worthless, I'm saying it's not good enough.

In the extremist world of Competitive PvP, "not good enough" is "worthless". Yes, it's exaggerating in what it technically is -it has some worht, but it's insufficient worth, not no worth, but... You get it. It's a technicality that is irrelevant.

[Mudslinger]

I performed very well in my dragon/s. To be effect however, in my opinion anyway,you have to

1. Utilize an XL.

2. Build it from the ground up. Slight modification from the stock build are not acceptable. It requires major modification.

3. Utilize those arms! You can lay some smack down while running in all kinds of directions at high speeds (for a heavy). Swinging arms with a Gauss and 2 medium pulse or large lasers can "ouchie" other mechs while your running at odd angle and between buildings/cover - it ain't something to laugh at. If you don't care/can't properly use swinging arms, don't touch this mech.

3. It is a very fast heavy but not nearly as resilient as the other heavies. So, you need to play with the "likeness" of medium/light mechs. Utilize speed, never stop moving when enemies are nearby, hit-and run, and finally support, support, support other heavies/assaults. You can't go go head-to-head pew-pew as well as the other heavies. Use the speed to pick and choose your fights.

The hero mechs have advantageous hardpoints for Dragons.

They can pack a few tricky "punches" for sure.

[Allister Rathe]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 March 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

In the extremist world of Competitive PvP, "not good enough" is "worthless". Yes, it's exaggerating in what it technically is -it has some worht, but it's insufficient worth, not no worth, but... You get it. It's a technicality that is irrelevant.

And that right there is part of the problem. Everything is so polarized in 8v8 play that it leads to a culture of discrimination against any 'Mech that doesn't conform to the competitive notions of what is effective. The game shouldn't have to balance entirely around competitive play or entirely around Pug play. They're two facets of the experience and while some builds might be more commonly accepted as the "best" in the 8v8 scene, that does not suddenly invalidate the rest.

And that's exactly what's happening in this thread. Because the Dragon is considered sub-par in the ultra-competitive world of 8v8, those who regularly play with a competitive group suddenly have an intense disgust for it that translates to being dismissive to any other viewpoint.

[Vassago Rain]

Allister Rathe, on 18 March 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

And that right there is part of the problem. Everything is so polarized in 8v8 play that it leads to a culture of discrimination against any 'Mech that doesn't conform to the competitive notions of what is effective. The game shouldn't have to balance entirely around competitive play or entirely around Pug play. They're two facets of the experience and while some builds might be more commonly accepted as the "best" in the 8v8 scene, that does not suddenly invalidate the rest.

And that's exactly what's happening in this thread. Because the Dragon is considered sub-par in the ultra-competitive world of 8v8, those who regularly play with a competitive group suddenly have an intense disgust for it that translates to being dismissive to any other viewpoint.

Dude, it's a PVP game. I don't care how special snowflake your dragon or spider is.
Don't bring that to a game. You're gimping us all to feel unique.