673 replies to this topic

[ArmageddonKnight]

LRM's are long range support and supression. Not supper dupper guided artillery that destroy everything they touch like they were b4 the hotifx.

0.7 + small radius splash = 1 dmg per missle. U have a LRM boat shooting of 60 Missiles, even if only 65% hit, thats still 39 dmg, close to a double AC20 hit. And u cant complain about where they hit, they r guided for crying out loud ..u didnt have to aim, unlike the AC20 pilot.

[Amynara]

Ok, been playing around with them a bit. Against lights/mediums, I think they're back where they used to be, hurting well enough, but they don't have enough punch against heavy/assault. In testing ground, I shouldn't have to send 8 2x20 volley's into a catapult with Artemis and Tag (All volleys hit CT) to take it out. If somebody is fool enough to stand still while being tagged in the open, LRM's should be able to punch up. What this change does is takes out any ability for LRM's to pack a targeted punch (because of the damage lowering) but reduces their effect against lights.

[Moromillas]

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

It is at these levels that missile combat falls back to a level that we AND the community felt was right for a long period of time before the badness appeared. I'm going to ask you to help us test these values by FEEL. Not by playing SpreadsheetWarrior.

Ah, there's a bit of a problem with that though. There's no way you can tell the difference between someone that is giving genuine honest feedback, and someone that just doesn't like, say, LRM's and wants their own style of play to be something better than LRM's, rather than being balanced.

[Rixsaw]

Okay here is my read on the feel of the current hotfix.

I buy and build all my mechs around the SRM missile system. I could care less about LRM's as those are for guys who can't aim. It was fun yesterday and today to run them and just face roll people while they were OP, but reality is I wouldn't do this in competitive play.

SRM's were fine before, people could dodge em. They took skill to fire, and have a very short range.

Right now I have one of the top units in the game, who are all stripping missiles off their mechs, and we are having to redesign mech builds that we have had guys training on for months. You may care that you are responding to the community, but organized units like mine need a consistent platform to base strats off of. It takes time to develop skill with different weapon systems.

I don't mind so much that you nerf SRM say 20%, but to nerf them 60% is a little strong, and the results are proven when my top SRM pilot, who literally only ran SRM's is now tossing them off his mech and going with lasers instead.

[Nincompoopery]

I tagged a Cat K2 at about 450m who was on top of a building. I poured three salves of two LRM20 + Art into him... and nothing. Was he damaged? Yes. But he should have been dead.

Please remember, anyone who is at all experience can hide behind cover, or even dodge some of the missiles. And yes, AMS does help.

[Gwaihir]

Whether or not it was intended, missiles still do 50% instead of 25% damage to heads.



23 shots, 46 missiles, 69 raw damage in to a Cat A1's head. 34.5 damage to kill a head, if missiles are doing 50% damage. If missiles were only doing 25% damage to heads, then 46 SRMs would have only done enough damage to strip the head's armor.

[Amaris the Usurper]

An experimental comparison of pre- and post-hotfix LRM and SRM damage is available here: http://mwomercs.com/...-test-results/.

Edited by Amaris the Usurper, 21 March 2013 - 05:26 PM.

[Rumble Chicken]

So... that drillbit of flaming depleted uranium mag ehh is not going to hurt my paper wagon?

[matux]

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

Not by playing SpreadsheetWarrior

Do you have a release date for SpreadsheetWarrior? when can i buy into the closed beta?

[GrnMonster]

I think the damage could be ticked up slightly. But just slightly.

The crying going on around here is crazy.

[Sporklift]

So they will be tweaked so that they do better damage later, just not the types of damage that people were seeing before the fix. I heard that legs were taking horrifying amounts of damage. I wonder how much of this was aggravated by the tendency of players to fill their legs with explosive ammo and then strip the armor off the legs.

[Kotsuno]

GrnMonster, on 21 March 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

The crying going on around here is crazy.

The crying has always been crazy though. About anything and everything. Especially since OB started.

[MilitantMonk]

As Beta testers we shall test and let you know how missiles feel. Thanks for being quick and responsive over this issue!

[Atheus]

Ok so I took my JM6-A armed with 2 Artemis LRM15, Tag and 1 LL out after the patch. First I did a training grounds. The results of firing volleys of 30 missiles each:

Commando (from 12:00): 1 volley = dead
Catapult (from 12:00): 2 volleys = red CT. one LL to finish it off.
Centurion (from 2:00): 3 volleys for red CT. Had to fish around with LL to finish it off.
Cataphract (from 12:00): 3 volleys for red CT. one LL finishes it off.
Awesome (from 12:00): 3 volleys = dead.

The main difference is that it seemed 80% of damage was focused on CT, but things weren't taking substantially more missiles to kill than before the patch. Missiles STILL seemed a bit too strong! But alas how wrong I was...

Moving on, I played 5 or 6 rounds of assault. The result was shocking... It's like I was lobbing sticks of butter at my targets, rather than missiles. Apparently having moving targets makes the missiles not only miss CT, but just flat out miss. I had targets walking sideways, targets walking toward me, or away... I seriously doubt more than 20% of my missiles hit any of them. The highlight was near the end of a match where an awesome who was maybe at 60% disconnected so I tried to finish him off as he ran diagonally into a wall sort of creeping along. I dumped easily 250 missiles into his back WITH tag and he was still looking just fine. At last a team mate finished him off since apparently I couldn't.

The situation now seems to me that if you had 2 mechs on a map with no cover, and both agreed to stay at 200-400m from each other, one armed with 2xLRM15+Tag and the other had 2xLL, the mech with large lasers would easily kill the LRM mech first. This would be fine IF the LRM weren't such an avoidable weapon with a modest level of caution... As it is, it seems firing LRMs at light mechs is back to being a total waste of missiles, as it's surprising if it even makes their paper doll flash, much less do any substantial damage. It's hardly a concern concentrating damage on CT... it's primarily concentrated on the ground.

It seems by scaling back the damage, the lack of accuracy on a moving target even with Artemis and Tag contributing leaves the weapon scaled back to the point that it's hardly worth paying attention to your incoming missiles warning. As long as you're moving, the damage won't be all that bad.

[SixstringSamurai]

It's nice that LRMs aren't tactical nukes but it feels wrong like it went too far. With SRMs the Cent 9-A is like a bad joke while at the same time it seems like the Splat-a-pult is more balanced so it's like it screws over some mechs and balances others.

[Stonefalcon]

This has been a long time coming. After numerous threads discussing the ludicrous damage LRM's were doing it's good to see the change was made and they've returned back to nearly original damage.

Paul, you say the splash is required fair enough, can I ask you, what is the explosion velocity of missiles? Like, is a light mech going to take reduced damage if it's moving away from the missiles when they explode and if so I'd assume they'd take more damage when moving towards the explosion?

SixStringSamurai, on 21 March 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

It's nice that LRMs aren't tactical nukes but it feels wrong like it went too far. With SRMs the Cent 9-A is like a bad joke while at the same time it seems like the Splat-a-pult is more balanced so it's like it screws over some mechs and balances others.

The C-9 was never built to be an SRM boater, it has a ballistic slot for a reason. Just because that build isn't as effective anymore doesn't say the entire mech has been nerfed.

[1BigFool]

Just ran my A-1 Cat (2xLrm 15, 2xSrm6, 2xSrm4) Through games and training grounds both.

Firing everything in pairs...

Light mechs: Stationary- dead in one or two volleys of Lrms. Roughly same with Srms.
Moving- 2 or 3.

Medium- Stationary- 2-3 volleys. Srms a bit more because of the spread.
Moving- 3-4 mixed with Srms. Note- there was a lot of AMS on the other team.

Heavy and Assault- Roughly 4-5 volleys (Stationary or Moving...they're kinda slow).

I got hit with missiles and at first I thought it was too light...then I realized I had AMS and so did the two guys next to me.

Based on this...I'd say missiles are at about proper strength.

Edited by 1BigFool, 21 March 2013 - 06:00 PM.

[UberFubarius]

Thontor, on 21 March 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

that sounds reasonable to me... they still do enough damage that you don't want to get stuck from out behind cover.. the people in the match from the screenshot i posted can attest to that. as long as being rained on by LRMs can't be ignored, they are fine.

it's when you can run around out in the open without a care in the world that they become an issue...

all numbers below assume stock AS7-D armor

think of it this way.. your 2LRM15 + artems weighs 16 tons.. and you used 1.17 tons of ammo to kill an Atlas in 7 shots

an AC/20 weighs 14 tons, and would take 8 shots to kill an Atlas hitting the center torso every shot.. that's 1.14 tons of ammo

2 PPCs weighs 14 tons and would take 8 shots to kill an Atlas hitting the center torso every shot.. and that's a lot hotter

a Gauss rifle weighs 15 tons and would take 11 shots to kill an Atlas hitting the center torso every shot.. 1.1 tons of ammo

it all sounds quite balanced to me...

Except non of the non-missile weapon requires 5~6 seconds of keeping yourself exposed to ensure a hit.
None of the non-missile weapon requires you to keep the target in sight for 1~2 seconds before you can even use it effectively.
None of the non-missile weapon gives your opponent 5~6 seconds to hide.
Non of the weapon becomes useless whenever one any enemy have an ECM (or have one mech with ECM next to you).

[Child3k]

I'm still speechless about the fact that PGI was able to ignore that big gigantuous elephant sitting on their lap. I mean - most of us noticed that something was way off after two to five matches.

But then ... who am I to judge ...

@PGI: Small hint for you guys - I guess there's something not right (and never has been) with the damage modell and your interns just based all the balancing on that flawed piece of code. I guess you pretty much have to send your little dwarfs back to the drawing tables und redo everything.

Oh and - thanks for the last two days. Playing was so much fun. Totally ridiculous and absurd but still fun

[Alilua]

Something still seems off about them. I played around the testing grounds and noticed that it took 6 volleys of lrm 15 to kill a commando and 6 volleys to kill an atlas. Took 4 to kill a jenner and 6 to kill a catapult.

Also noticed splash damage was going through mechs hitting rear armor on the atlas when fired straight on.

I have no idea what is going on with them.