1107 replies to this topic

[Teralitha]

Protection, on 22 March 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

After watching another poor PUG die in the heat-death-traps (often called Trial mechs) while playing today, it occurred to me -- why are single heatsinks even in the game at all?


There is no reason for them to even exist. Double heatsinks are an absolute upgrade. They are basically a mandatory part of any functional design in the game.

The only mechs that benefit, at all, from the existence of single heatsinks are Urbanmech-esque joke light mechs that use up all their critical slots and try to run a 150XL Engine, or Atlas/Stalker builds that decide to run 40+ heatsinks, wasting twenty plus tons that would otherwise be spent on weapons in a good build. We can live without these joke builds.

And this is what kills stock mechs - more than anything else. The weapon loadouts are often terrible, and they are poorly optimized, but it's the lack of effective heat dissipation that makes most trial mechs so utterly terrible.

So why not simply remove single heatsinks from the game? If double heatsinks are going to be an absolute upgrade, then why not simply spare players the frustration and make it so that double heatsinks are the only type of heatsink (which would solve the whole "not really double" thing as well).

All stock mechs now come with double heatsinks instead of single heatsinks - making them much more viable for PUGs to learn the game in, and standardizes an extraneous game element that has no place or purpose any longer (except to mimic tabletop designs).

So let's just make Double Heatsinks the only type of heatsink, and throw away Single Heatsinks forever.




(Alternatively, I did. long ago, make a suggestion about how to make single heatsinks a viable option and the decision between singles and doubles interesting, but it went largely ignored:
http://mwomercs.com/...ps-trial-mechs/ )

If your going to go with this logic, I would say get rid of double heat sinks and bring back the skill of heat management and break cheesebuilds forever.

[Tabrias07]

If they're not going to make SHS a sidegrade, then there's no reason to have them in the game, other than a money sink, and you could keep that by just raising the prices on mechs.

[Shumabot]

Mercules, on 25 March 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Oh look, it's another person who doesn't want to play Mechwarrior/Battletech based game complaining about this Mechwarrior game. I'm not here to play "Generic Mecha with no backstory: Online." Without the lore I can account for 10 people who would not play this game based on the mechanics alone.

Yeah, and you're lording over a dying game full of cancers that you refuse to let go of because of nostalgia. Enjoying playing a game with shut down servers because the devs couldn't lose the love of the golds and make a game that wasn't hugely flawed, unbalanced, and unfun. I want to play mechwarrior, not battletech online dicegame p2w fantasyland.

Stop responding to me, you aren't worth reading or responding to.

Teralitha, on 25 March 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

If your going to go with this logic, I would say get rid of double heat sinks and bring back the skill of heat management and break cheesebuilds forever.

That doesn't get rid of the cheese builds. The games cheese builds are the ones that are least heat intensive already. That would do very little to anything except make the game slower (I'm actually ok with the change, the game is more fun without dubs when DPS isn't out of control).

Edited by Shumabot, 25 March 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Kdogg788]

I have no idea what half of these guys are going to do when clan tech with smaller, more heat dissipating DHS come on the scene this summer.

-k

[Ohari]

MuKen, on 22 March 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

You're not taking into account that choosing DHS instantly gives you the equivalent of 10 free SHS by doubling the innate cooling value of your engine. Just changing to this already has more cooling than yours, plus a whole bunch of extra space and weight to do with as you wish.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ac30ccc19a138da


There are only a very few very niche builds that actually carry enough SHS to make up for this difference.

but DHS dont actually DOUBLE the cooling....its less ..more than a single for sure, but its actually not double..this has been exposed in the forums before.

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 25 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

I have no idea what half of these guys are going to do when clan tech with smaller, more heat dissipating DHS come on the scene this summer.

-k

Probably the same thing they did when dropship mode came out three months ago. Keep playing the same game and get mad that PGI can't fulfill promises.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 09:42 AM, said:

Your fun is ruining 15 other peoples fun. You are selfish. Plain and simple.

Your wrong sir. His build might ruin the fun of 7 players, if his team is filled with jackholes. But if he does his part and fights. His Mech is always welcomed on my side. I have only read one selfish players posts here, his aren't those posts.

[FupDup]

Ohari, on 25 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

but DHS dont actually DOUBLE the cooling....its less ..more than a single for sure, but its actually not double..this has been exposed in the forums before.

DHS provide 2.0 the effectiveness of a SHS when they are in the engine. It's external DHS (the ones that take up 3 crit slots) that are 1.4.

[Teralitha]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

That doesn't get rid of the cheese builds. The games cheese builds are the ones that are least heat intensive already. That would do very little to anything except make the game slower (I'm actually ok with the change, the game is more fun without dubs when DPS isn't out of control).

Im afraid u are incorrect. ALL Cheesebuilds are heat intensive.

Edited by Teralitha, 25 March 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[Shumabot]

Ohari, on 25 March 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

but DHS dont actually DOUBLE the cooling....its less ..more than a single for sure, but its actually not double..this has been exposed in the forums before.

In engine double heat sinks are 200%. Outside the engine they are less. Engines hold 12-13 heat sinks, so you get 10-16 free heat sinks just by clicking the dubs upgrade.

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Your wrong sir. His build might ruin the fun of 7 players, if his team is filled with jackholes. But if he does his part and fights. His Mech is always welcomed on my side. I have only read one selfish players posts here, his aren't those posts.

Uhuh.

[Protection]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

IF THEY CHANGED WEAPON RATE OF FIRE DOUBLE HEAT SINKS WOULD STILL BE CLEARLY SUPERIOR IN VIRTUALLY EVERY CASE. THAT CHANGES NOTHING IN THIS CONVERSATION.

This is totally true.

MeiSooHaityu, on 25 March 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

I don't have to SHOW you any build. I explained in a lot of detail the reasons as to why single heat sinks play a part in the game. It is not my job to give you lessons on how to use the Mechlab.

BTW. If you are too impatient to try builds and figure this stuff out for yourself, than don't use any of this advice. Just play with your double heat sinks and drop the issue.

You seem to be bad at understanding mech design then, because doubles offer a total optimization for every mech - it's more efficient than endo steel or ferro fibrous, and dramatically improves every single design.

There is no SHS build that is in any way, whatsoever, better than a DHS build with the same loadout. Unless you desperately need that third ton of streak ammo for a Commando 2D.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

Probably the same thing they did when dropship mode came out three months ago. Keep playing the same game and get mad that PGI can't fulfill promises.

Dropship mode was announced a few month ago, but I have not seen it launched yet. Please point me to where I can find Dropship mode.

[Shumabot]

Teralitha, on 25 March 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

Im afraid u are incorrect. Cheesebuilds are heat intensive.

No, they aren't. The most powerful cheese builds current are dual ppc 1 gauss poptarts, srm bomb with ac20 DDC atlasses, Raven 3Ls, dual AC20 Jagers, and 4-5 PPC stalkers. Before the missile and cat hitbox change splat cats and dual ac20 splat cats were also on the list.

The only mech there that is heat intensive is the PPC stalker. It's also the worst mech on the list. I question if half of you have ever even played this game before.

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Dropship mode was announced a few month ago, but I have not seen it launched yet. Please point me to where I can find Dropship mode.

Drop ship mode was cancelled a few months ago. It was announced months before that. I could point you to an eye doctor, at that point you might start reading and comprehending these posts.

Edited by Shumabot, 25 March 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[Protection]

And back during the closed beta days, when there was only single heatsinks, it was Gausscats, 9 SLas Hunchies, and 6 SLas Jenners - and everyone considered those cheese. (Because cheese in MWO means a competent functional design for the game being played)

[Kdogg788]

Tabrias07, on 25 March 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

If they're not going to make SHS a sidegrade, then there's no reason to have them in the game, other than a money sink, and you could keep that by just raising the prices on mechs.

The main point of logic that some fail to understand is that not every option in the mech building process is a "sidegrade." Small pulse vs. Medium laser = Obvious upgrade not sidegrade. DHS are only a money sink on the mechs you choose to keep. I keep every one of my mechs but it a guy in my unit wants to pick up a mech, level it and sell it off, he is NOT going to want to float doubles on his build.

Some things will be better, cost more, take up more space, etc. Many choices are not apples and apples, but apples and oranges, where one is better than the other in most cases. I would be VERY careful in trying to re-balance the entire heat system in lieu of the coming introduction of clan technology.

-k

[Teralitha]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

No, they aren't. The most powerful cheese builds current are dual ppc 1 gauss poptarts, srm bomb with ac20 DDC atlasses, Raven 3Ls, dual AC20 Jagers, and 4-5 PPC stalkers. Before the missile and cat hitbox change splat cats and dual ac20 splat cats were also on the list.

The only mech there that is heat intensive is the PPC stalker. It's also the worst mech on the list. I question if half of you have ever even played this game before.

I have played since closed beta sir. You are still incorrect. All of those builds you mentioned are heat intensive. Every single one of them. And if they were built with single heat sinks they would have major heat problems.

Which is why I said.... "get rid of double heat sinks and bring back the skill of heat management and break cheesebuilds forever."

Edited by Teralitha, 25 March 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[Shumabot]

Kdogg788, on 25 March 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

The main point of logic that some fail to understand is that not every option in the mech building process is a "sidegrade." Small pulse vs. Medium laser = Obvious upgrade not sidegrade. DHS are only a money sink on the mechs you choose to keep. I keep every one of my mechs but it a guy in my unit wants to pick up a mech, level it and sell it off, he is NOT going to want to float doubles on his build.

Some things will be better, cost more, take up more space, etc. Many choices are not apples and apples, but apples and oranges, where one is better than the other in most cases. I would be VERY careful in trying to re-balance the entire heat system in lieu of the coming introduction of clan technology.

-k

Do you seriously not understand why having pure upgrades on identically resource intensive choices is bad for variety? I mean, it's clear that you think that. But seriously. That's like people not knowing touching a glowing stove hurts their hand.

[Joseph Mallan]

Shumabot, on 25 March 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Drop ship mode was cancelled a few months ago. It was announced months before that. I could point you to an eye doctor, at that point you might start reading and comprehending these posts.

No sir I know it was announced You made it sound as if it were rolled out. Your exact words was 'When Dropship mode came out." It has not yet come out. My eyes are getting bad, but 20/20 vision is what is supposed to be normal for most folks. SO I guess I will have to settle for having only normal vision now.

[Shumabot]

Teralitha, on 25 March 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

I have played since closed beta sir. You are still incorrect. All of those builds you mentioned are heat intensive. Every single one of them. And if they were built with single heat sinks they would have major heat problems.

You have never played this game before. That is the only explanation. You are some sort of insidious pod person pretending to be human and spreading plainly illogical lies in order to sow chaos. That is the only possible way you can say that a dual ac20 jager, which can fire infinitely without overheating, is heat intensive. That's the only way you can say that the D-DC which can fire for like 5 minutes straight without overheating is heat intensive.

Go away pod person, earth isn't work conquering with golds like these ruining it.

Joseph Mallan, on 25 March 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

No sir I know it was announced You made it sound as if it were rolled out. Your exact words was 'When Dropship mode came out." It has not yet come out. My eyes are getting bad, but 20/20 vision is what is supposed to be normal for most folks. SO I guess I will have to settle for having only normal vision now.

Your eyes can't detect sarcasm so visible it blew up the meter and could be seen from space. Those don't sound like good eyes. Those sound like ben stein eyes.

[Wolf Ender]

Protection, on 25 March 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

And back during the closed beta days, when there was only single heatsinks, it was Gausscats, 9 SLas Hunchies, and 6 SLas Jenners - and everyone considered those cheese. (Because cheese in MWO means a competent functional design for the game being played)

this is the same conclusion that i have drawn after reading through this thread. most of these complainers are simply full of ********* and they seem to think every GOOD build is cheese, well i guess most of the players in this game are cheesers then. this thread is so full of mindless QQ it's just stupid.

Edited by Wolf Ender, 25 March 2013 - 10:25 AM.