Jump to content

Remove Single Heatsinks From The Game


1107 replies to this topic

#521 MustrumRidcully

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 10,644 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:56 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 26 March 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

All I am seeing here is, 'I want dubs for free cause I have no patience and don't want to build up the funds to buy them. That is all this is about. Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! I want doubles on everything cause they are better.'

Where did you see that? Is that really the position of people? Is that really what they are worried about, that their own builds are gimped and they don't want to pay for ungimping it? Even if someone says "just make every mech 1,500,000 C-Bills more expensive", that's what he wants?
Even if someone says "I don't think upgrade bonuses are a good idea for a PvP game, it puts too much disadvantage on new players." Even if someone says: "I don't think it is good design for a PvP game to have items that are intentionally inferior to other items, as this will hurt new players while experienced players will just ignore these items as useless, ultimately meaning there is a lot of development effort devoted to something that keeps new (or players that can't do math) players down?"

#522 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:06 AM

If the argument is to "get rid of" single sinks I have to ask, Why? If I can up grade from them to dubs, why do they NEED to be removed from the game? Everything else is my opinion and I can give it. Sure it would be nice, but its the whole NEED to do it that I have a problem with. I am for more choice not less. Removal will limit the choice. For the record over the next few TROs Doubles become more standard, but we are not there yet. Again Patience is the word.

The everything needs to be balanced would lead to, "we all should just be Clanners" cause all their equipment is superior to what we have now. Will the cry then be get rid of IS tech and only use Clan? Slippery Slope maybe, but I have seen the progression, and lay dollars to doughnuts we will see it soon. And When/if Clan Dubs are superior to present Dubs will the same suggestion arise?

#523 qki

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,034 posts
  • LocationWarsaw

Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:15 AM

thing is - the whole thread is basically a circlejerk for guys patting themselves on the back and congratulating eachother for being so clever to notice that double heatsinks are an upgrade.

An upgrade you don't absolutely need. Sure - 90% of the loadouts out there will be improved by adding double heatsinks. But not having them does not equal autolose.

Are you guys seriously trying to say that the outcomeof a 8v8 (or 12v12) match will depend on wether one mech has single, or double heatsinks?

The practical reality of the battlefield is that you won't be able to sustain an alpha-barrage for long, not because of heat, but because of lack of targets. Between terrain, and breaks in fighting, single heatsinks WILL do the job ofcooling your mech dow to the point where you can play effectively.

I'm not saying "don't get heatsinks, because they're not an improvement" - they are, and definetely worth it. But don't cry "useless" at every mech without one.

Oh, and Protection - you owe me for one engine - your "improvements" idn't improve sh*t (fortunately you haven't made it worse either) - my lyran scout plays exactly the same - there have been exactly zero situations in which I have now been able to annihilate vast swathes of enemies that I couldn't before due to heat issues. And the final difference is several million c-bills down the drain.

#524 Mercules

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Nimble
  • The Nimble
  • 5,136 posts
  • LocationPlymouth, MN

Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:16 AM

Well, the Slippery Slope fallacy would say we should not put weapons on mechs you purchase because new players might mistakenly think three PPCs and a Small Laser is a good loadout for an Awesome and accidentally use that. Endo Steel is also ALWAYS a good upgrade so all mechs should just be more expensive and have that upgrade as well and save them 1+ tons. Heck, we should strip everything off the mechs including engines and then max out the armor structure when they are sold to players so the new player doesn't accidentally use anything they come with stock and possibly drop in a non-optimal mech.

#525 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:19 AM

DocBach Made top 10 in Mediums with a mostly Stock Centurion IIRC (he swapped the LRM for SRMs). He did it to prove a point. He did a pretty good job to.

#526 Bishop Steiner

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Hammer
  • The Hammer
  • 47,187 posts
  • Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time

Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:26 AM

@Mercules.....

didn't i warn u once about using commonsense and reasoning on here? Already had Shuma try to pretend their argument against SHS wasn't exactly the same as just starting with all Clan tech from go.

#527 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:37 AM

View PostMuKen, on 26 March 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:


So you're not only backtracking what you were just saying, you've resorted to caricaturizing any dissenting opinions. I think we're done here.

Really I backtracked? Where sir? I have said keep singles, I have said earn the Dubs. I have said sinks (all sinks) need to be improved. I do not see a Backtrack in that position? Where have I backtracked?

#528 Laserkid

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 160 posts
  • LocationRural Southern Illinois

Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:47 AM

SHS are in the game because they are part of BT lore, Just like flamers and MGs.

What single heatsink are used practically for is assault mechs. Where critical space will sometimes not allow the use of DHS due to large weapon systems. Though MWO's hard point system limits this somewhat.

Also some designs are made "cheaper" they have limited weapons payloads that do not require the added expense. IE the Non-ECM spiders.

The real issue is there isn't a "Stock mech: 3025" mode, where everyone playing would being in 3025 variants of mechs. And yes, the Trail mech system is driving new players away. PGI moved in the right direction "pre-made" Trial mechs.

#529 Atheus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 826 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:55 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 26 March 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

@Altheus

Lets see.... Still running my CN9-D bone stock. If missiles stay as weak as current, that'll change, but it ain't the SHS that are the dealbreaker. I average 2 kills and 400 damage in it, so while not a world beater, I hardly feel handicapped. Of course I'm sure you guys all average 5-6 kills every match, with your optimized specials, which makes me wonder why you care what your teammates are packing, since you guys do all the heavy lifting anyhow.

Am I saying it's better by having SHS? NOPE. But I've never felt the need to spend the money to upgrade, either. I also do rather well running the HBK-4J, CTF-1X, AWS-8T and even do pretty good in a stock K2. In all cases, DHS is an improvement, but oddly, the ammo stores are far more a limiting factor than the SHS.

In fact, the general crap nature of trials ain't the SHS, but because the doubled armor has made most stock loadouts, and definitely ammo stores, inadequate. The simple fact that everyone builds their "optimized" customs around the alpha strike (traditionally reserved for desperation or coup de grace), instead of sustainable fire aggravates thing.


The CN9-D has 10 SHS bone stock. This is how you run it? The 2 medium lasers alone would overheat you pretty quickly on either of the hot maps, and I'm sure you know just how many times you'll need to shoot someone with 2 medium lasers to even give them a mild headache.

The only way this mech doesn't benefit substantially from DHS is if your play style involves so much running and hiding your team mates take all the enemy fire, and only stepping out to take your pot shots when you are sure they're not focused on you. This strategy (and corresponding mech design) buckles when you don't have a strong team to carry that weight, or any time you face a group of "optimized" mechs that force a position you can't retreat from and blow you away with sheer firepower. At its best, the mech can only sustain a measly 2.67 dps without the LRM, which becomes a respectable 5.33 if you add DHS. Regardless, even if that is your play style, you can't seriously tell me you never get the overheat warning on the hot maps. That overheat warning is telling you you should have upgraded to DHS if you wanted to finish killing that mech in front of you.

All those other mechs you listed also see similarly enormous increases in performance which can be leveraged by novices and veterans alike. A K2 firing PPC's with only 20 SHS? Be serious. If you "do pretty good" in that mech, you're ready to solo drop against a lance in a K2 with DHS.

My primary concern is the new player experience, though. New players will get in that mech, look for an enemy, then try to shoot him to death. They'll fire their LRMs from 50m away, and do all sorts of other things we experienced players know not to do. The problem is, he doesn't have the requisite knowledge to carefully manage the severe limitations of SHS to achieve even a modicum of success. Maybe he'll learn, but here's the thing: Chances are the guy that new player is shooting at not only knows not to fire his LRM's from 50m, he also doesn't have those severe heat limitations because he designed his mech not to. That's why new player instantly gets his head blown off while he's looking at the ground in an offline mech.

This game has terrible new player retention. There is a reason for that. You have decided for yourself that it has nothing to do with people disliking the ridiculously tight heat budget in trial mechs who don't stick around long enough to discover the options. I think you'd have to be crazy not to suspect it. It's a free to play game. People show up with 0 investment other than the time it took to download it. If the game doesn't prove to be fun, it's on to something else. First impressions are massively important, and this game makes a TERRIBLE showing of it - not ONLY because of SHS, but my bet is that annoying heat management made a significant contribution to a substantial number of players walking away before even getting out of trial mechs.

#530 MustrumRidcully

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 10,644 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 07:59 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 26 March 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

If the argument is to "get rid of" single sinks I have to ask, Why? If I can up grade from them to dubs, why do they NEED to be removed from the game? Everything else is my opinion and I can give it. Sure it would be nice, but its the whole NEED to do it that I have a problem with. I am for more choice not less. Removal will limit the choice. For the record over the next few TROs Doubles become more standard, but we are not there yet. Again Patience is the word.

The everything needs to be balanced would lead to, "we all should just be Clanners" cause all their equipment is superior to what we have now. Will the cry then be get rid of IS tech and only use Clan? Slippery Slope maybe, but I have seen the progression, and lay dollars to doughnuts we will see it soon. And When/if Clan Dubs are superior to present Dubs will the same suggestion arise?

The argument is:
A choice between something that is obviously bad and something that's obviously good is a bad choice. It's boring, why would you want to take the bad option?
A choice that is between two alternatives that may be good or bad dependent on factors you have to weigh is interesting. How well are you able to weigh the options? Will you pick the best choice for the situation at hand? Did you predict the enemies reaction correctly?

One definition of game is:
"A game is a series of interesting decisions".
You normally don't want to make intentionally bad decisions, so a decision where identifying the bad is as easy as identifying standard heat sinks is bad isn't an interesting decision. You know the right decision already.

#531 Zabnicki

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 26 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:19 AM

I'm too lazy to read all the posts so this is for the OP.
One of the biggest things to learn in this game is heat management. It is integral to Battletech on the table and Mechwarrior Online. It keeps that guy with the 4 or more PPC's from constantly spamming alphas, It forces you and everyone else to decide weather or not it is wise to Alpha high-heat weapons or to chain fire them. DHS drain more heat per second sure but, have the drawback of triple the space that could have been used for other parts/weapons/doodads. I got a few mechs that have only SHS in them and they work fine as I group weapons by ranges and I'm not constantly alpha striking throughout the match.
I believe there are too many people with cheesy all or nothing builds that alpha, shutdown, alpha through a match regardless of SHS/DHS anyway.

#532 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:23 AM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 26 March 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

The argument is:
A choice between something that is obviously bad and something that's obviously good is a bad choice. It's boring, why would you want to take the bad option?
A choice that is between two alternatives that may be good or bad dependent on factors you have to weigh is interesting. How well are you able to weigh the options? Will you pick the best choice for the situation at hand? Did you predict the enemies reaction correctly?

One definition of game is:
"A game is a series of interesting decisions".
You normally don't want to make intentionally bad decisions, so a decision where identifying the bad is as easy as identifying standard heat sinks is bad isn't an interesting decision. You know the right decision already.

Of course I do. I've been making these choices for 30 years! :D
But the fact is it is a choice some players want to have to make. That doubles are better is not the point. The point is some players want the choice, having the choice does not detract from the game, unless you are only looking at cost, and as you pointed out 1.5 Mil could be added to the cost, but why? I can just grind the extra cash and with a couple clicks and a drag I have them anyway. Those who WANT singles deserve to have them. Fixing the the actual problem is the right solution, removing the option is a knee jerk reaction. That is all I am saying here. Whether I use singles or not doesn't matter. Someone does want to have them.
Look at it we can have
XL or Standard
Endo or Standard
FFA or Standard
Double Sinks or standard.

There is no mandate to only have one or the other. Leave it alone, and put the tech on your Mech that You want. Is that really so bad?

However, I want my Dubs to actually be double and time to vent cut in half on all Sinks, so we are not as over burdened by heat. an Awesome 9M and the 8Q should be able to fire its (ER)PPCs 6 times before shutdown occurs. Not twice and down. Fix that and the whole single double issue is next to moot.

#533 Shumabot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,695 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:28 AM

View PostMuKen, on 26 March 2013 - 06:56 AM, said:


So you're not only backtracking what you were just saying, you've resorted to caricaturizing any dissenting opinions. I think we're done here.


He's been trolling this thread for 27 pages. Just ignore him.

#534 Deathlike

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Littlest Helper
  • Littlest Helper
  • 29,240 posts
  • Location#NOToTaterBalance #BadBalanceOverlordIsBad

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:33 AM

I swear all of you are going round and round in circles with the same arguments and same conclusions.

Removing single heatsinks from the game is too extreme. I don't mind choice, but in 99%+ of the cases, the DHS version of a build is better than the SHS build. Probably less than 5% of the cases where SHS is a better choice, due to crits, is an issue of balance. SHS needs be buffed in some way (improved engine efficiency is the easiest)... but this option needs to rethought in depth.

The best options I can think of is the following:
Lower the Double Heatsink "cost to use", from 1.5m cbills to 750k or 500k.
Provide the DHS upgrade to all trial mechs (and the ones you buy), wherever possible, to keep in line with TT specs, due to crits or whatever. Add in the cost of the revised DHS upgrade as necessary.
Lower the SHS "downgrade" to 50k c-bills. Since there's no practical reason to use them, it shouldn't cost that much to downgrade.
Buff internal SHS engine heat dissipation to 1.4 or 1.5. In order for a 250 SHS engine engine to be @ heat parity with the 250 DHS engine, it would take 5 or 6 SHS to accomplish (instead of 10). 5/6 tons and 5/6 crits are better than consuming 10 for the same purpose.

This should address most of the issues stated here, and frankly the choice to pick a worse option is not "an upgrade".. it's just a waste of people's time. The people most affected by ANY of this are the newbies, who are forced to suffer from imbalances of the current SHS/DHS system.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 March 2013 - 08:35 AM.


#535 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:34 AM

View PostShumabot, on 26 March 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:


He's been trolling this thread for 27 pages. Just ignore him.

I've been shooting holes in your desire to do away with single sinks. Nothing more. You have the Trolling locked up for this thread sir. There is no need to be rid of single sinks.

#536 Shumabot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,695 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:39 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 26 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

I've been shooting holes in your desire to do away with single sinks. Nothing more. You have the Trolling locked up for this thread sir. There is no need to be rid of single sinks.


Hardly. You've been puking out ad hominim, repeated logical fallcies, plainly wrong mathematics, and you've been characterizing the entire community how you want to. Your arguments are ludicrous, stupid, inane, constantly shifting, and almost unintelligible You are literally the worst poster I have seen on this forum. That you have 8379 posts of ignorant spam under your belt is telling.

You need a hobby that doesn't involve making a fool of yourself on a dying games forum.

Edited by Shumabot, 26 March 2013 - 08:40 AM.


#537 Kdogg788

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 2,314 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:40 AM

View PostAtheus, on 26 March 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

This game has terrible new player retention. There is a reason for that. You have decided for yourself that it has nothing to do with people disliking the ridiculously tight heat budget in trial mechs who don't stick around long enough to discover the options. I think you'd have to be crazy not to suspect it. It's a free to play game. People show up with 0 investment other than the time it took to download it. If the game doesn't prove to be fun, it's on to something else. First impressions are massively important, and this game makes a TERRIBLE showing of it - not ONLY because of SHS, but my bet is that annoying heat management made a significant contribution to a substantial number of players walking away before even getting out of trial mechs.


Whether you're rocking single or double heat sinks, you're still in danger of overheating. The heat system is a central part of this game, and part of deciding if an when to fire weapons and how many of them. Players should be capable of learning not to spam weapons or over-Alpha everything in sight. If that's the major reason why new players aren't staying, they were never going to in the first place. F2P will always have a good proportion of try and move on players.

-k

#538 ReguIus

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • The Infernal
  • The Infernal
  • 137 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:41 AM

Under current circumstances DHS are too good compared to SHS. I'd love to know what Devs think of all this, but unless they implement some kind of Battle Value system or other limiting factor, DHS is the standard we will see.

I wouldn't mind to see this system get a overhaul though. Make your engine always include 10 SHS regardless. Every additional DHS then provides exactly twice as much cooling power. Then rebalance every weapon to match the new Heat system. Make other adjustments as necessary... Anything really. Make XL engine give you twice as much Engine Heat Sink slots or something to support energy builds... Sky is the limit.

#539 Shumabot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,695 posts

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:42 AM

View PostKdogg788, on 26 March 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:


Whether you're rocking single or double heat sinks, you're still in danger of overheating. The heat system is a central part of this game, and part of deciding if an when to fire weapons and how many of them. Players should be capable of learning not to spam weapons or over-Alpha everything in sight. If that's the major reason why new players aren't staying, they were never going to in the first place. F2P will always have a good proportion of try and move on players.

-k


I question if you people can actually think. Your post has absolutely nothing to do with the difference between single and double heat sinks and nothing to do with the poster you quoted. Nothing. The dude was talking about the severe heat issues SHS inflicts on new players, issues that competent players dont face because doubles are a pure upgrade that they can afford. "Just l2p noob" is nonsense. It's just the same elitest spam you've been copy pasting into this thread. Are you Josephs roomate? Do you share a keyboard?

Edited by Shumabot, 26 March 2013 - 08:45 AM.


#540 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:48 AM

So you say, but you have provided nothing at all helpful to the thread. You just insult those who disagree with you. I have given ideas how to fix the balance of sinks and doubles.

I have plenty of hobbies, I just like this one best.

Only you seem to care how many posts I have(I never mention my post count as it is only a number.

As to me characterizing the community, well you seem to be doing the same thing Mister Pott.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users