1107 replies to this topic

[Protection]

Ryvucz, on 26 March 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...466be0812b047ca

How about a serious build please. Narc is a joke, BAP is trivial, and a 225XL Raven is a slow, easy kill.

We can all make AC/10 Spiders with 100XLs to try and prove the point, But bring a real design.

[Ryvucz]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:09 AM, said:

How about a serious build please. Narc is a joke, BAP is trivial, and a 225XL Raven is a slow, easy kill.

We can all make AC/10 Spiders with 100XLs to try and prove the point, But bring a real design.

I use this a lot.

I'm sorry that I proved you wrong, and it is a viable build, because I use it.

Move along.

[Protection]

So your argument is to keep SHS for joke light mechs. Eyeroll.

[Joseph Mallan]

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I insult people who lie in a public place, and I insult people who use logical fallacies and the reasoning of a child to prove their point. No, I have not been kind in my responses to you. I've been giving what's thoroughly deserved given the quality if your posts. In this thread I have improved three seperate posters builds in smurfy, explained the mechanics of DHS, explained the mechanics of new players interactions with SHS and stock mechs and explained significant portions of game theory to over a dozen posters.

Were their Mechs unusable or just not up to your Standards? Did you find out their Stats on the builds they used? How often do they win or lose live or die? All you did was make upgrades then cut them down for not using your idea of a good build. But you keep forgetting what is good to you may not be what someone else wants to play.

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What have you done? You've constantly mischaracterized me (and everyone else you've responded to) as saying they need to remove single heat sinks (Something I have literally not said once in tens of posts in this thread you cretin). I have said double heat sinks should be modified into a system that isn't a pure upgrade that results in new players being hazed and a 1.5 million tax on competitive performance of mechs. You basically just shout at an effigy of me that you've constructed in return. I'm not going to be nice to you. You aren't even close to deserving kind responses. Forum rules are about the only reason I don't say much less kind things. You are the worst kind of gamer.

What I have done is, provide a suggestion or two that could be discussed as to how to improve the heat system so single and double sinks can both be used effectively. Will double sinks always be better than singles? Sure. Do we need to pay for them one way or another? Yes. As the game progresses will more Mechs come with dubs standard? Yes they will. But for now, in this point in the timeline, this is what we get to work with.

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They shouldn't remove single heat sinks, but they should seriously rework double heat sinks into something that isn't just a straight tax on minimum performance on a mech. No mech in the game is competitively viable with single heat sinks. None. Not one.

First, yup you did not advocate removal of single sinks. But you came at the problem backwards. Single sinks need to be made more viable, to do that their vent time needs reduced. Doubles need to follow the same improvement and that will keep them balanced with singles, while singles become more useful. Now there was a suggestion to modify the cost of converting to dubs. It’s worth discussing. So far though this is your demonstration of how you want to discuss things.

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You sound like you don't actually care about game quality in the slightest and just want to be pretentious and elitest in your "skill".

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Yes it can. Hit the double heat sink upgrade button, instant extra 10 heat sinks. no crit space required. You don't know how this system works, stop posting about it.

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Wait, what engine are you using? What kind of hideous joke mech are you inflicting on your teams..?

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And I have a centurion that goes 70 and has an AC/10, 3 SRM 6's, and four times your armor. Good job making the worst mech I have ever heard of.

Just a few of your insulting replies to others who have a different opinion than you! Don’t like my style? Fine then take a lesson from Mustrum. He has pointed out a few of the things you have, only with a civil tongue, and a non-insulting delivery. You notice I give him the respect he deserves even if I don’t completely agree with him. He gives respect he gets respect.

If you were being a jerk to just me, I could care less. I have seen your kind in forums for over 2 decades. If you want a good discussion the first person to prove it is you.

[Mercules]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

So your argument is to keep SHS for joke light mechs. Eyeroll.

So your argument is, "Things I disagree with are not valid arguments."

[Teralitha]

Get rid of double heat sinks, and bring back heat managing skill, and skill in general.

[Protection]

Mercules, on 26 March 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

So your argument is, "Things I disagree with are not valid arguments."

As stated before - it's about mech optimization. If you want to run an 100XL Spider or a Slow Narc Raven - that isn't a valid enough excuse to justify the programming of single heatsinks into the game. We want SHS to have a real purpose in optimized, serious builds.

[Dan Nashe]

Ryvucz, on 26 March 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...466be0812b047ca

Not really a viable mech. :-). Also, drop ams and ferro fibrous, gain .75 tons net. Get a bigger engine. Better mech done. Or drop BAp ... without streak or lrms no point. Or if you prefer drop ams and get a 250 engine xl. Now you're faster and can dodge missiles better. And you won't over heat anymore. With 33 percent you'll overheat surprisingly quickly even with only 2 mls and an srm launcher.

Don't get me wrong, you can run what you want. I THINK you'd have more fun with no ams and dhs and abigger engine. But You're free to run fun builds you enjoy. But if you recommended that to a new player you would be a bad person.

Edited by DanNashe, 26 March 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

@DanNashe.....

Umm.mm..... Gaussapult? Even being bathed with flamers on Caustic, mine can't seem to overheat, so no, DHS really doesn't "Improve" anything. Unable to overheat is unable to overheat. Since I'm not one of those silly gits willing to sacrifice ammo or speed or armor for the dubious advantage of a pair of medium lasers (thanks i would rather have 2 more tons of ammo that lay out real hurt, than a pair of lasers that basically are more a last act of desperate defiance than actual benefit), DHS in no way improves my G-kitty.

And of course, the Trollmando. And i gotta play with the 8Q or 9M, some dude in my unit had one with a bunch of lasers, and used singles because he could fit around 45 total SHS into the mech, a degree of cooling it is literally impossible to match with doubles due to space.

Point is in 99% of cases DHS are an upgrade. But they are not 100% mandatory do make a competitive mech, and the issue is about the silliness of the idea to just totally remove them, not whether one was more effective. As by that reasoning, the only tech any of us should use at all will be clan tech, so why even waste time designing Inner Spere mechs and weapon systems?

[Ryvucz]

DanNashe, on 26 March 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Not really a viable mech. :-). Also, drop ams and ferro fibrous, gain .75 tons net. Get a bigger engine. Better mech done. Or drop BAp ... without streak or lrms no point. Or if you prefer drop ams and get a 250 engine xl. Now you're faster and can dodge missiles better. And you won't over heat anymore. With 33 percent you'll overheat surprisingly quickly even with only 2 mls and an srm launcher.

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

As stated before - it's about mech optimization. If you want to run an 100XL Spider or a Slow Narc Raven - that isn't a valid enough excuse to justify the programming of single heatsinks into the game. We want SHS to have a real purpose in optimized, serious builds.

This actually goes faster than a lot of Raven pilots out there that refuse to go over 80 KPH.

Here's the thing, I play by assists and scouting.

A Raven was not designed to carry streaks and lasers with max engine to run around hunting and killing.

I'm sorry, you guys can hate on my builds all you want, you can claim it's not viable all you want.

He wanted proof of a build, I gave it to him.

And now it's not viable cuz it's not cheese and kills things.

Sorry.

[Protection]

So you are intentionally missing the point of the thread for your slow joke Raven. Bravo sir, I applaud you.

[Ryvucz]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

So you are intentionally missing the point of the thread for your slow joke Raven. Bravo sir, I applaud you.

Point of the thread was intended to remove single heat sinks.

Not when I use them, you silly man child you.

Due to critical slot limitations on some mechs, I can not make use of double heat sinks.

[Kdogg788]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

As stated before - it's about mech optimization. If you want to run an 100XL Spider or a Slow Narc Raven - that isn't a valid enough excuse to justify the programming of single heatsinks into the game. We want SHS to have a real purpose in optimized, serious builds.

Why would SHS ever have to be in "optimized, serious builds"? I went back and read the OP, then read the linked post, and it seems you want to completely redesign how DHS function. SHS are not supposed to have double the capacity of DHS otherwise they'd be larger than DHS. That's like have 3 or 4 crit space singles with double the capacity and the same dissipation. The function of DHS is to dissipate twice as fast. They are an upgrade, and always have been. It's strange because several months ago the player base almost revolted because DHS weren't venting enough heat. Now some want them brought back.

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

So you are intentionally missing the point of the thread for your slow joke Raven. Bravo sir, I applaud you.

I'm not going to run his build either, but if that's his preference, and if he is relatively effective in it and enjoys it, to each his own. I'm also not going to resort to dismissive insults either.

-k

[Mercules]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:19 AM, said:

As stated before - it's about mech optimization. If you want to run an 100XL Spider or a Slow Narc Raven - that isn't a valid enough excuse to justify the programming of single heatsinks into the game. We want SHS to have a real purpose in optimized, serious builds.

So... true story... DDO I ran a Warforged Fighter with one level of Wizard. I was told over and over again how "non-optimal" the build was, how I was gimping myself, how no party should be without a Sorcerer or Wizard for the buffs or a Cleric to heal. I was gimping myself going Warforged and then gimping myself even further by not going full Fighter.

Things go well with this group that is constantly shaking their head at me. After all I'm using a Shield and Intimidate instead of DPS tanking with a two-hander on top of that. Wizard grabs agro with an ill timed spell and does like the worst thing he could do... he runs. Wizard dies... next up the Cleric bites it before we can pull the mob off him. So now we are left with a bunch of non-healing/buffing characters and myself.

I renew my self buffs, heal myself up to full, apply a couple I hadn't otherwise like Stoneskin to myself and the others in the party, and tell the Cleric not to respawn because it will cost us all XP on the quest. I end up body pulling mobs, then taunting them and keeping them focused on me who can heal himself and not the fleshies. We end up making it to the shrine where the Cleric and Wiz can get up and being able to finish the mission with no XP loss because my non-optimized build can take a beating in a game where DPS was supposed to be king as well as self heal and buff... all because I gimped myself.

Not all builds are going to be "optimal" in everyone's eyes. Some might find them a joke. I am sure there are those that think my Treb with a PPC, LRM10, and 3 Medium Lasers is a joke, but it works really well for me and I was getting numerous kills and solid damage even aftert he LRM "nerf". I'm sure they also see my 2 ERPPC 6 MG Jager the same, but it works for me.

[Ryvucz]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

So you are intentionally missing the point of the thread for your slow joke Raven. Bravo sir, I applaud you.

Here's one, now why the hell would you upgrade to double heat sinks on this thing to waste C-Bills?

Granted it's not critical space limited, but it does bring the question of WHY when you don't have to?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...89d9cd6fad3aab9

[Protection]

Here's the thing - if you want to segregate SHS users in trial mechs from all the upgraded DHS users with seperate queues, that idea is workable, but now we have 3 separate queues - one for newbies, one for pugs with less terrible builds, and one for organized 8 mans.

And yes, as we've gone through before Kdogg -- having DHS be nothing more than a flat upgrade for 99%of builds is boring and limiting to player choice and the game's capacity.

Ryvucz, on 26 March 2013 - 10:37 AM, said:

Here's one, now why the hell would you upgrade to double heat sinks on this thing to waste C-Bills?

Granted it's not critical space limited, but it does bring the question of WHY when you don't have to?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...89d9cd6fad3aab9

This is the Gausscat argument over again. In the Caldera, on Caustic Valley - you can still overheat inside with just one medium laser. You cannot with DHS - so DHS s still an optimization. It is still 100% better with no drawbacks.

[Bishop Steiner]

Now it's about justifying the programming of SHS into the game? So now you are simply trying to do the programmers a solid, save them some work.

Swell. Of course, since they already DID the work by adding SHS at the very beginning of the game, programming them out would take more effort and resources. And funnily enough, SHS worked fine. People learned to run 8Qs and K2s and Cheesebacks and PulseAwesomes..... All with only SHS.

Of course, perhaps PGI should rename the game ShumaProtectionWarrior: Online, and run all designs by you for optimization, first? Cuz woe is them if they actually include the designs from mechwarrior...... Into Mechwarrior: Online.

That some form balance is lacking, I would agree. But since everytime any dissenting opinion is stated, the only response is an insultfest, obviously you are just here to push an agenda, not foster a useful debate. The game, is not a respawning TDM FPS. Your basic premise treats it as though it is, as though the current limited implementation was the endgame. It is not. Should they include that as a feature/option to the game, then I would agree, but in that instance, everything needs to be available for free. And such a feature would be great, as it gives the optimization twitch crowd their instangratification. And it gives a great free way to test builds.

But to insist a feature he removed from a game units entirety, simply because it serves no use in the narrow window you choose to view the game through, is myopic.

[Kdogg788]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Here's the thing - if you want to segregate SHS users in trial mechs from all the upgraded DHS users with seperate queues, that idea is workable, but now we have 3 separate queues - one for newbies, one for pugs with less terrible builds, and one for organized 8 mans.

And yes, as we've gone through before Kdogg -- having DHS be nothing more than a flat upgrade for 99%of builds is boring and limiting to player choice and the game's capacity.

Yet people want to run them? I'm not going to stop them from running what they want. It's a flat upgrade for mechs that you will actually keep and play for a long period of time. It's a waste for those that you will shelve, sell, or use rarely.

-k

[Mercules]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

It is still 100% better with no drawbacks.

It's still 1.5 million C-bills you can choose not to spend on the off chance you are dumb enough to stand in a Caldera firing when you know there is some possibility you might overheat.

[Ryvucz]

Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Here's the thing - if you want to segregate SHS users in trial mechs from all the upgraded DHS users with seperate queues, that idea is workable, but now we have 3 separate queues - one for newbies, one for pugs with less terrible builds, and one for organized 8 mans.

And yes, as we've gone through before Kdogg -- having DHS be nothing more than a flat upgrade for 99%of builds is boring and limiting to player choice and the game's capacity.



This is the Gausscat argument over again. In the Caldera, on Caustic Valley - you can still overheat inside with just one medium laser. You cannot with DHS - so DHS s still an optimization. It is still 100% better with no drawbacks.

I'm sorry, I must lack the sheer stupidity to overheat myself with one medium laser at 1.93 heat efficiency out of 2 MAX.

I am sorry if I have offended you or proven you wrong in any way.

I agree, single heatsinks should be removed because double heatsinks are superior, and NO ONE needs a single heat sink, on anything.

Regardless.

Enjoy your day good sir, for you have earned it.