63 replies to this topic

[Xetherius]

Tennex, on 27 March 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

if momentum is calculated by speed and mass in this game like it is in real life. then i suspect the cicada will be another good bowling ball

The Cicada should take heavy damage from the impact though, moreso than the rammed (if the target is significantly larger). You're still a glorified light mech running head first into a 100 ton wall, makes sense it would hurt. A lot.

[hashinshin]

The dragon is actually supposed to be good at ramming.

[CheeseThief]

The front of the cicarda is the cockpit, the front of the dragon is a giant battering ram that looks like it would push down upon anything it crashed into.

I fully support the dragon getting bonuses to knockdowns and collisions, just not it reverting into the bowling ball it once was.

[Xelah]

Erasus Magnus, on 27 March 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

if they reintroduce ramming, there should be a severe drawback for ramming others. like taken lots of damage. imagine a 60 ton robot, cruising with 100kph, is ramming another robot that walks against it with 50 kph. the impact is that of a vehicle, ramming a steel wall with 150 kph.

They disproved this on mythbusters. Each would take roughly the average of the impact.

[Erasus Magnus]

Xelah, on 28 March 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

They disproved this on mythbusters. Each would take roughly the average of the impact.

i did not say that they dont. i just stated that the speed of which BOTH collide with eacht other is 150 kph. BOTH would (and in my opinion should) take severe damage. because otherwise it is all mech bowling again and that is just preposterous.
or they introduce some sort of cooldown to ramming an tripping. say, if you tripped over or have been , you cannot be for x seconds again.

[Sephlock]

Protection, on 27 March 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

I'd actually rather like that. Tackler Dragons were really irritating, but now that every heavy, and most mediums, are so much better than it at everything, it might be a fun quirk to give it back the amazing knockdown power it once had to give Dragons a real purpose.

(For anyone who did not know -- during closed beta, the Dragon mech was accidentally calculated as a 100 ton mech, rather than a 60 ton mech, when collisions were still in the game. So whenever a Dragon collided with another mech - it would almost always bowl it over while remaining on its feet. Even Atlai, Awesomes and Catapults were knocked down left and right by rampaging 100 kph Dragons, bowling over everything in sight.

Then they fixed it and Dragons became the useless machine we all know and hate today.)

It didn't always stay on its feet...

[Vassago Rain]

Ramming was a terrible idea. It shouldn't be allowed to come back in that way.

[jeffsw6]

Davers, on 27 March 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

The Dragon needs to become a viable chassis without exploiting poorly implemented cheese mechanics.

I own Flame (mastered), Fang, and DRG-5N and I enjoy playing them even more than my Atlases when I drop on decent teams. I do not think they are gimp but that players do not appreciate their speed.

Dragons make quick work of lights (unless they are armed with tons of missiles for a huge alpha-strike) and they can beat Assaults with their superior maneuverability. Against mediums and heavies, it boils down to situation and skill, IMO.

Dragons are also great for capturing because enemy teams often send lights to counter a sneak-capture, and like I said, Dragons can make quick work of lights. They are also fast enough to flee from assaults.

I don't think they are gimp, but I do think the available hardpoints are too limited. I'm not talking about the missiles, screw them. I mean they should be more flexible in how you can mount guns.

I also posted a serious suggestion/poll thread, saying that the Dragon should get a built-in flamer with no slot/ton cost. It's called a Dragon, the flamer is not exactly useful, and it's okay for this game to have novelties. If a mech called a Dragon can't fly, the least they could do is allow it to breathe fire. Seriously, toss in a non-moveable, 0 ton 0 slot flame thrower in the head. Or let it mount jump jets. Something.

$0.02.

Edited by jeffsw6, 28 March 2013 - 01:02 AM.

[Serevn]

Its decided, we need ramming Dragons back, it was awesome and you all know it.

[Nightfangs]

Chain-ramming dragons were amongst the things I will miss least.
We don't need perma-CC in this game!

[Scrawny Cowboy]

I miss packing a 400 in my fatlas and plowing my way through brawls. That was fun. ^^

[Matthew Craig]

When collisions come back I expect this will be based primarily on the mechs tonnage and speed, not sure how much things like center of gravity will play into it or if design will tweak knockdown potential per mech. It will go through play testing and be tuned like any other feature by design for fun and ensuring it doesn't break current gameplay first and any other considerations after that.

I wouldn't expect a return of dragon bowling, though the dragon is a fast moving heavy so it could certainly remain effective at ramming when it returns.

[Sears]

Matthew Craig, on 28 March 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

When collisions come back I expect this will be based primarily on the mechs tonnage and speed, not sure how much things like center of gravity will play into it or if design will tweak knockdown potential per mech. It will go through play testing and be tuned like any other feature by design for fun and ensuring it doesn't break current gameplay first and any other considerations after that.

I wouldn't expect a return of dragon bowling, though the dragon is a fast moving heavy so it could certainly remain effective at ramming when it returns.

Could charge damage also take into account mechs with hands/claws? Perhaps a charge damage multiplier to represent that mechs melee capabilities?

[Galenit]

Voidsinger, on 27 March 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

Imagine any of the following factors coming into play:
- Kinetic energy of colliding mechs.
- Hands helping recovery times
- Jump Jets helping recovery times
- A light rising before the heavy (as they usually should).
- No predetermined advantage for mass.

I suggested some time a got that collision should base on:
Speed+weight+chassis bonus against speed+weight+chassis bonus

Bonus means some have bonus to trip others (dragon?, charger?) and some have resists against being tripped (cicada?), this also a way to bring gyro upgrades in the game.

Much better it would be, if they also take the high of a mech into account.
Like a commando ramming an atlas takes damage all over, but the atlas only to its leg and maybe to its centertorso.

Dfa would damage the legs of the jumper (maybe with some damagereduction?) and the head and/or centertorso (jaeger) of the victim. Should be not so much more work, if they do the highbased ramming damage thing.

Dont know what damagefactor should be tight to the kineticenergy for damagecalculation. Maybe E*0,000001, thats around 2,5 damage for a 25ton mech ramming a standing mech with 50kph, 9,5 for 100kph and 21 for 150 kph. But thats seems a little to much, dont be in the right mood to do more of the math now, i should be balanced around 2 62,5 ton (the middle between 25 and 100 tons) mechs both with 95kph (the middle between 40 and 150 kph) running toward each other and crash frontal.

Jumpjets will help your mech flowing over the ground on its belly. Look there is a spidertorpedo coming crashing his head to an atlas feet.

Another edit....

Edited by Galenit, 28 March 2013 - 06:15 AM.

[FupDup]

Galenit, on 28 March 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

I suggested some time a got that collision should base on:
Speed+weight+chassis bonus against speed+weight+chassis bonus

Why do weight and chassis bonus get added twice?

[Galenit]

FupDup, on 28 March 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

Why do weight and chassis bonus get added twice?

Against means one mech ramming another mech, both have force for damage and trippingchance / trippingresist.

Energy=Mass x Speed² /2 + Bonus for tripping and/or resits against tripping. You need it from all involved mechs, that why you find it, with a little against between, two times. Sorry, english is not my first language, its not easy to explain such things.

Edited by Galenit, 28 March 2013 - 06:12 AM.

[Ph30nix]

i am very against ramming to knock over WITHOUT a stiff penalty to the one doing the knocking over.

im talking like 2x or even 3x the damage of the target (especially in case of a larger target)
because think of the ammount of damage you can do to said target in time it takes them to get back up.

Also i didnt experience it myself but i hear the horror stories of how it was abused.

and i dont care how fast it goes a light mech shouldnt be able to knock over something 2x its weight.

[ElLocoMarko]

I sometimes scan the youtubes for MWO videos, looking for piloting tips and whatnot ... not searching for knockdown at all and run across a video where there is a knockdown. And then that mech gets knocked down again.. and again... it seems to be primarily used for griefing other players.

That doesn't sound fun.
I'd be posting links if I wasn't at work... youtube searches are a red flag.

Edited by ElLocoMarko, 28 March 2013 - 06:22 AM.

[Voidsinger]

Matthew Craig, on 28 March 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

When collisions come back I expect this will be based primarily on the mechs tonnage and speed, not sure how much things like center of gravity will play into it or if design will tweak knockdown potential per mech. It will go through play testing and be tuned like any other feature by design for fun and ensuring it doesn't break current gameplay first and any other considerations after that.

Just remember what I said about Player Enjoyment being the over-riding factor, not canon lore or realism. Just hope the heavies and assaults don't start whining for the ability to keep lights down longer like it was last time.

The other thing I hope for is some skill to come into play for an intended total collision to be avoided and changed to a grinding scrape.

[Steinar Bergstol]

As far as TT rules go _both_ mechs will take damage in a ramming/charge attack, so I don't expect one will be able to ram with impunity in MWO. It was not the first choice of anyone wanting to do a physical attack due to this fact. The rammer did take less damage than the victim, however, due to being ready for the impact and angling the mech so it would brace for impact with arms, put its shoulder into it, take the impact on a more solid part of the mech than where the victim got it (which is actually not so far fetched I learned to my surprise myself when my car got rear ended once. The impact point on my car was a very solid piece of the frame and the result was that it got out of the accident with nothing more than a scratch. The guy who ran into me, on the other hand, had the entire front of his car ruined. Radiator and all had to be totally replaced. It looked like someone had gone hog-wild with a sledgehammer on the front of his car).

However they do it I expect it'll be tested for balance to make it viable as a tactic, but not a first choice if you can avoid it.