133 replies to this topic

[McDuff]

This is a great topic. I will leave to others to defend the Hunchback and the Centurion. Both are fine mechs and prior posts do them justice. But we are lacking a recon killer. and the 55 ton class with 5/8 speed was always a great class to be used as recon killers (especially the Griffin, Wolverine and the Shadowhawk). I understand the unseen/reseen issue and I am hoping PGI has found a way around this because I always enjoyed these iconic mechs. Also, I think they will play a valuable role in the game. Mechs that can hunt recon and make your enemy blind will be important elements of any company. At least in my opinion.

[Ian]

Quote

we arent playing table top. we are actually going to be running and gunning in mwo, not moving hexes up to the enemy to unleash a shot every 10 seconds. sure some little **** might run away, but that just leaves his back turned to you to finish him off in 1 good hit.

Hmm I believe all the weapons are on ... 10 second timers. Also you don't run away, you back off while using your long range weapons while they cannot hit with their short(er) range weapons. Pretty much what the clans try to do because they don't believe in fair fights.

[Name140704]

If you don't consider the Hunchback or Centurion to be a solid medium 'mech when compared to the CRAP AC5/SRM2/LRM5/medium laser Shadow hawk then I dare say GOOD DAY SIR.

[TotalDisorder]

zuul88, on 02 June 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

True, i did have the most amazing time fighting a hunchback in a GRF-1S a few months ago with one of the other players who did not understand Battletech. That AC 20 seemed awesome until i stayed 10 hexes away the entire fight, large laser!!! But unless the entire game is totally BROKEN then it will still stand to reason, they will continue to seem awesome while remaining essentially worthless. Cause any smart/good player while just laugh as they bring you down. But feel free to be immensely proud of any inexperienced/stupid players you can manage to kill. If you hear hysterical laughter as all your short range weapons miss while you get grinded into the dirt like a chump, that will be me or any other competent player.

Nathan


As a side note to the guy who called me a "surrat." When you use a Clan insult while defending a slow short range weapons platform makes you look stupid. The Clans use FAST mechs & Long/Extreme range weapons, you kinda missed the whole point. There Hunchback IIC is only used as a "cheater" in sibko Trials of Position or old warriors who want to DIE not become solhama. Never by any real warrior of any value, just a FYI.

Nathan

Ha ha... I like this guy. I like the fact that I get to shoot him if he plays.

[Farmer]

TotalDisorder, on 02 June 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Ha ha... I like this guy. I like the fact that I get to shoot him if he plays.

I'm a big fan of how he keeps forgetting that this isn't a single player game, and only uses 1v1 tactics to justy his spurious claim that the Hunchie and the Centurion aren't useful, solid 'mechs. Notice, too, how he has moved from complaining about speed to complaining about range, using TT rules as his justification.

Nevermind that this is a sim, so if you're leading properly or have it locked you don't HAVE a miss chance. But let's examine his most recent core argument. Which forgets the LRM10 the Centurion has, with a maximum range of 21 hexes. The AC10 will hit at fifteen hexes. That Hunchie sure only has a reach of 9 hexes, but if you're playing with your lance properly, the enemy will come to you.

Edited by Farmer, 02 June 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[Arafinar]

TotalDisorder, on 02 June 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Ha ha... I like this guy. I like the fact that I get to shoot him if he plays.

And Ill make sure Im in a hunchback when I sight him:)

[nodie]

Still a month left before launch no point in whining about options etc. before then.

Also Some of the scenarios your playing out in your responses give me the feeling that you expect that these mechs will be operating on their own? clarify, and place them in a team situation with those variables and what roles they would fill in a team filled with the current mechs listed.

I like all 3 current mediums.

My cicada will spot you, flush you out or turn your heads. The Centurion will come from cover at a distance and lay down fire, all the while the Hunchie (bless his slow *** soul) will be coming in under the Centurions fire to force them to make the choices. By then Fire teams/Assault are closing all because we played our roles and worked as a team.


p.s.I did not include the rest of the lances etc or company other wise I'd be going pages.

p.p.s. for the trolls..... your a steiner why are you worrying about other mediums? you have the atlas already?

Edited by nodie, 02 June 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Farmer, on 02 June 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

Wow. Just... Wow. You can use them as static defense, sure. But you can also flush enemies into ambushes. Or use flanking maneuvers. Or any number of other tactics. And that's with just the Centurion and and Hunchie.

Yes, lights and mediums will avoid them. But that's assuming they know they're there.

Flush them into an ambush? Very different then static defense! That calls for them to be immobile & use firepower on mechs that are advancing into their fields of fire. I see the difference now. But again FAILED!!! Heavy tracked tanks can do that as well, while being cheaper. You can get a 70 ton tracked tank for same C-Bill price. A 4/6/0 would have a hard time flanking an Atlas which what happens when the Atlas is flanked & just torso twists, is a totally different question. But the answer to that is "The Atlas walks away." Its lack of mobility to perform an actual flanking maneuver is my main point.

Nathan

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Farmer, on 02 June 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

I'm a big fan of how he keeps forgetting that this isn't a single player game, and only uses 1v1 tactics to justy his spurious claim that the Hunchie and the Centurion aren't useful, solid 'mechs. Notice, too, how he has moved from complaining about speed to complaining about range, using TT rules as his justification.

Nevermind that this is a sim, so if you're leading properly or have it locked you don't HAVE a miss chance. But let's examine his most recent core argument. Which forgets the LRM10 the Centurion has, with a maximum range of 21 hexes. The AC10 will hit at fifteen hexes. That Hunchie sure only has a reach of 9 hexes, but if you're playing with your lance properly, the enemy will come to you.

I responded to the hunchback specifically, since it was defended as awesome. While I personally do not like the Centurion, I would not have any problem with it if we were given a 50-55 5/8/5 mech as well. But its two mechs that fill the same small niche of usefulness. While one is arguably better then the other they both lack any mobility while the Cicada is ALL mobility with poor armor/firepower. None of the three demonstrate the all around usefulness that is the main hallmark of the Medium class. When I want to go slow & have big guns, I just happen to believe in doing it right... in an Assault. Otherwise I want a nice balance of speed/armor/firepower.

[Kid Weeb]

I'm sure the Devs have something up their sleeves (re: Artemis) regarding a big news Mech release. But until then, how about thinking about why the following Mechs (among others that I am not listing for the sake of brevity) weren't chosen to be in the release of MWO:

Assassin - 40 Tons, base movement 7/11 with JJ's. Not too shabby for ascout/hunter.

Clint - 40 Tons, base movement 6/9/6. It might not be a hard hitter in 3025, but it gets a good boost in 3050.

Vulcan - 40 Tons, base movement 6/9/6, gets a good weapons kick in 3050.

Trebuchet - 50 Tons, base movement 5/8/0, good indirect fire support Mech.

Dervish - 55 Tons, base movement 5/8/5, a good fire support Mech (direct or indirect depending on the variant)

These Mechs are available in one variant or another throughout the Inner Sphere for the 3049 timeframe. Even though they all have good points, they just weren't chosen by the Devs for reasons unknown to us. The Unseen Mechs (Phoenix Hawk at 45 Tons and the "Classic Trio of 55 Tonners" - Griffin, Shadow Hawk and Wolverine) are readily available to most Great Houses in 3049, they just aren't available to us in the year 2012.

Hopefully, in the near future we can get the Unseen along with many of the other Canon Mechs. Until then, we just have to play with the toys that the Devs give us. So let's be nice on here and wait until we meet on the battlefield to beat each other up.

[Shivus]

I admire your fervor, but you do realize you're still arguing TT values when we get a nice mechlab in which we can knock armor off the hunchback, downgrade the AC20, and upgrade the engine for added speed.

Similarly with the cicada, unless it has a naturally low maximum armor value, downgrade the engine, bump up armor and add some more guns if that's what floats your boat.

[LordDeathStrike]

nodie, on 02 June 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

Still a month left before launch no point in whining about options etc. before then.

Also Some of the scenarios your playing out in your responses give me the feeling that you expect that these mechs will be operating on their own? clarify, and place them in a team situation with those variables and what roles they would fill in a team filled with the current mechs listed.

I like all 3 current mediums.

My cicada will spot you, flush you out or turn your heads. The Centurion will come from cover at a distance and lay down fire, all the while the Hunchie (bless his slow *** soul) will be coming in under the Centurions fire to force them to make the choices. By then Fire teams/Assault are closing all because we played our roles and worked as a team.


p.s.I did not include the rest of the lances etc or company other wise I'd be going pages.

p.p.s. for the trolls..... your a steiner why are you worrying about other mediums? you have the atlas already?

hey dont go lowballing my atlas just because the steiners dont use anything but atlas! i <3 my atlas, bless her slow ***.

Shivus, on 02 June 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

I admire your fervor, but you do realize you're still arguing TT values when we get a nice mechlab in which we can knock armor off the hunchback, downgrade the AC20, and upgrade the engine for added speed.

Similarly with the cicada, unless it has a naturally low maximum armor value, downgrade the engine, bump up armor and add some more guns if that's what floats your boat.

i wouldnt strip armor off the hunchie, but i would swap the ac 20 for and lbx 10, which now has more shots per ton so you could possibly drop a ton of spare ammo, and use the new free tonnage to go faster with a bigger rated engine. and the lbx 10 has a nice reach with options to fire solid slugs or scatter shot for scout killing.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Yoseful Mallad, on 02 June 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

here is a personal list of mine that I feel would be great medium mech that would fit just fine in this game.

1.CLINT (a classic that would look great with a new design) http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clint
2.Mercury ll http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Mercury_II
3.STARSLAYER http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Starslayer
4.MEN SHEN http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Men_Shen
5.CRAB http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Crab
6. HERMES ll (another classic medium mech) http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hermes_II

And thats just a few Id gladly play with if they were in the game.

The Clint is very rare due to it's oddball gyro. Not many left in the IS, and IIRC not in production anymore. Production eventually ramps up again (or returns to normal numbers, if it in fact never left production) in the 3060s.

The Mercury II is extinct by this time period and never even existed in the Inner Sphere. How in the name of sam hell did this 'Mech get on your list?

The Starslayer is a rare SLDF era 'Mech. Downgraded versions were produced, but with very small numbers. I'd rather see the more common mediums come out first. That being said, I love this 'Mech.

The Men Shen does not exist yet. Blatantly. Again, not sure how this 'Mech got onto your list.

Crab is another rare SLDF era 'Mech. Very low production numbers, somewhat artifically increased numbers thanks to Operation Rosebud, but losses are far exceeding production at this time period.

Hermes II is a great 'Mech, but does a job that is better performed by lights.

LordDeathStrike, on 02 June 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

and a mechlab, if you dont like the stock variants, you are free to **** away some cbills and tune them. you can alter armor up to max allowed, tweak engine size for speed. change weapons layout within the hard points, which in the case of the hunchback and cent you have alot of options, even the fast ****** can mount some blistering weapons if you make the tonnage available.

just use some imagination, everyones born with one.

Immersion and suspension of disbelief is essential to a good sci-fi game. With such established lore, a Hunchback flying around at 97kph is just silly, thus ruining suspension of disbelief and therefore ruining immersion. A lack of immersion returns a lower investment rate, which returns, eventually, a smaller playerbase.

My view:

5/8/x is a class medium 'Mech speed. I hope to see some medium represent this speed stock. Personally, I think the reseen Wolverine would be a fine example. Nice range of variants, common, iconic, and effective.

[trycksh0t]

Ian, on 02 June 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Shadow Hawk, Griffin and Wolverine are now all RESEEN. As in Catalyst Games has secured legal rights to use them. Keep up with the times. The only mechs still in question are those that originated in Macross.


Actually you can have T-Bolts but not Crusaders.

Actually...you might want to keep up with the times, Read the following please.

http://www.mektek.ne...-r1283#comments

As of August 2011, there's a lot more Unseen than there used to be.

Because of that, if the Devs stick with 3025 TRO 'Mechs, the only 50-55 tonner with 5/8/5 would be the Dervish.

Edited by trycksh0t, 02 June 2012 - 10:34 PM.

[LordDeathStrike]

Ian, on 02 June 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Hmm I believe all the weapons are on ... 10 second timers. Also you don't run away, you back off while using your long range weapons while they cannot hit with their short(er) range weapons. Pretty much what the clans try to do because they don't believe in fair fights.

no, mwo weapons are not on 10 second timers lol, you smoking meth? and no your mech cant escape by backing off, reverse isnt even half of running speed, its half of walking speed. and only zel less cheap ***** play clans that way. which is why the devs will either force zel game play, or nerf clan tech to same range weapons as IS tech.

[Malkenson]

From a TT perspective...
I really, really, really miss my Phoenix Hawk...



I am *not* going to make a Hunchback or a Centurion into a P-hawk. Heck, I can not, what with the jump jet rules and how one can place weapons, let alone the unknown cost, C-bill wise, to do so. Even if the rules would allow me to so, why would I? A Centurion & Hunchback have defined roles in Battle Tech, any variant that now suddenly acts like another mech ruins my immersion in the game.

So yeah, I'm not all that impressed with the IS Mediums so far. That classic 55 ton trio, plus the Dervish and my beloved P-hawk, are what I'd also consider true mediums, in that they combine decent armor & firepower & mobility.

With that said, there is *nothing* wrong with the Mediums currently slated for release. They just provide a play style that I'm more often used to seeing in heavy mechs.

[Kasiagora]

Dang. I'm used to hearing this kind of elitism from a Clanner, not a "True tabletop player." (prepares for mobs and pitchforks from every type of player we have)

I'm a fan of tabletop too, it's what I grew up on and 55 tonners are the penultimate word in medium mechs. But everything you mentioned are all unseen mechs, and as many people mentioned; I like the ones you mentioned because they can engage at all ranges and move around with survivability, but many feel they just suck at all ranges without enough dedication to any task to accomplish any goal. Which is also a valid point. Those 55 tonners are good for one-on-ones where you don't know what you're facing (which is how I got my start) but in a lance you should have complimenting mechs to cover each task. And this game is aimed at team combat. Besides, if you want a "solid medium mech" pilot the Dragon. Or for that matter the Centurion. How is either of them really that much different from the ubiquitous Shadow Hawk? It's lacking an SRM2 rack in favor of a medium laser which does one more point of damage? Either mech has an LRM10 instead of the weaker LRM5?

The more I think about this, the more I think you're trolling. It's a good troll though. Go back to /tg/ and pat yourself on the back. Have yourself a soda-pop, Golden Boy. Better yet, have yourself a seat, I'll get one for you. Hope you like grape.

[Thomas Hogarth]

trycksh0t, on 02 June 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Actually...you might want to keep up with the times, Read the following please.

http://www.mektek.ne...-r1283#comments

As of August 2011, there's a lot more Unseen than there used to be.

Because of that, if the Devs stick with 3025 TRO 'Mechs, the only 50-55 tonner with 5/8/5 would be the Dervish.

Actually, you might want to keep up with the times. That article references how the original art was made reseen for a short period of time. The project phoenix art is still legal.

http://bg.battletech...ic,17454.0.html

If you're going to be snarky, at least do your research to back it up.

[frostfly]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cronus

http://www.sarna.net...or_(BattleMech)

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Chameleon

[I_AM_ZUUL]

Kid Weeb, on 02 June 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

I'm sure the Devs have something up their sleeves (re: Artemis) regarding a big news Mech release. But until then, how about thinking about why the following Mechs (among others that I am not listing for the sake of brevity) weren't chosen to be in the release of MWO:

Assassin - 40 Tons, base movement 7/11 with JJ's. Not too shabby for ascout/hunter.

Clint - 40 Tons, base movement 6/9/6. It might not be a hard hitter in 3025, but it gets a good boost in 3050.

Vulcan - 40 Tons, base movement 6/9/6, gets a good weapons kick in 3050.

Trebuchet - 50 Tons, base movement 5/8/0, good indirect fire support Mech.

Dervish - 55 Tons, base movement 5/8/5, a good fire support Mech (direct or indirect depending on the variant)

These Mechs are available in one variant or another throughout the Inner Sphere for the 3049 timeframe. Even though they all have good points, they just weren't chosen by the Devs for reasons unknown to us. The Unseen Mechs (Phoenix Hawk at 45 Tons and the &quot;Classic Trio of 55 Tonners&quot; - Griffin, Shadow Hawk and Wolverine) are readily available to most Great Houses in 3049, they just aren't available to us in the year 2012.

Hopefully, in the near future we can get the Unseen along with many of the other Canon Mechs. Until then, we just have to play with the toys that the Devs give us. So let's be nice on here and wait until we meet on the battlefield to beat each other up.

Exactly, the Dervish is a great 55T. It had one of the highest CEF of any 3025 medium mech. My point was why did the devs give us two of essentially the same mech? They are both trying to do the same task, be under-armed & under-armored heavys. The best tonnage of a 4/6/0 is a 75 tonner, it gives you the most unused non-structural tonnage. They are 25 tons to light for that, so why did they need to give us Two of the same inefficent designs? There are lots of great Medium mechs, I just want to see them!

Nathan