1089 replies to this topic

[Accursed Richards]

Jacob Dieffenbach, on 05 April 2013 - 06:42 PM, said:

It'd be as if legging a speedy 'Mech didn't slow it down, or if medium lasers provided minimal heat and so the mechs firing them constantly would never overheat and shut down. People would cry out bloody murder that it was unbalanced, because there should be nothing in the game that can only be countered by killing the entire enemy 'Mech completely.

I agree with your other points, but this one isn't quite right. Some people would point to those things as being unbalanced, others would abuse the mechanic for all it was worth, put their wins with it down to their super ninja mech skillz, and snarl "Lrn2play noob!" at those who complain.

Marcus Tanner, on 06 April 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

Even if there were no LRMs or streaks in the game anywhere at all, and even if every enemy mech had a TAG laser, and even if every weapon in the game disrupted ECM the way PPCs disrupt ECM, I would *still* bring ECM every time. It's only 1.5 tons. It doesn't exactly need to be amazing to justify that expense.

That's the heart of the matter, and it says all you need to know that no ECM defenders have even tried to address this point. The cost / reward is comically out of whack with every other bit of kit in the game, and there's no situation where you might want to spend those tons / crits on something else.

[hammerreborn]

CECILOFS, on 06 April 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

In other words, to counter a 1.5t piece of equipment that takes up no weapon hardpoints and is constantly on, you:

1. had to have 2 mechs working in perfect coordination

No....I just had to look for a missile symbol and on his end look for the bullseye

Quote

2. Had one of those mechs equipped with a 1t piece of equipment which takes up an energy slot constantly firing on the target (Literally constantly lest the missile lock break). This mech had to have LOS the whole time thus being exposed to fire from at least 1 Atlas.

Only need the tag when the missiles go in the air and just before they hit the ground. And either way, what else would I be doing than constantly firing on my opponent? Hugging him? Writing a sonnet?

Quote

3. An Assault mech dedicating almost all of its tonnage and crits to LRMs/Ammo (it must have been a boat since LRMs take forever to kill an Atlas let alone 2, especially when indirect fired).

Wtf does this have to do with ECM. Get your arguments straight.

Quote

You see the problem here?

Nope. Two team players played like a team and won a match using teamwork in a team oriented game. His stalker got to indirect fire two heavily armed foes while I ran around them like chickens going "shoot at me shoot at me!"

Edited by hammerreborn, 06 April 2013 - 05:36 AM.

[hammerreborn]

So I'm going to do a bit of a rant here.

Quote

2. Had one of those mechs equipped with a 1t piece of equipment which takes up an energy slot constantly firing on the target (Literally constantly lest the missile lock break). This mech had to have LOS the whole time thus being exposed to fire from at least 1 Atlas.

I'm really sick of this argument. TAG is the best 1 ton piece of equipment in the game. Hell, if I had a choice between ECM and TAG I'd pick TAG everytime. It does everything.

1) It's a tracer. Shoot TAG at target, get red crosshair, fire lasers. They hit EVERY TIME. Especially useful when aiming at a ravens legs.

2) It helps paint targets. Screw letters, follow the bullseye. It even paints targets under ECM coverage!

3) It's a straight up damage bonus for all LRMs on your team. Who doesn't like free damage? It also allows them to fire indirectly much, much easier than without.

4) It's the best offensive team weapon in the game. No other equipment provides an offensive bonus to your teammates

5) It has range. No brawling necessary!

6) And it does all that WITH NO HEAT. Ya, put an extra medium laser in there Jenner Ds, and as soon as you shut down, your face gets blown off.

If you are a light and you're not carrying TAG you have no damn excuse except for joke builds. You're just awful.

/TAGing since it's release


My stats:
JENNER JR7-D 509 325 183 1.78 565 258 2.19 165,616 368,790 1 day 18:49:11


Oh lord, only a 2.19 K/D ratio and 1.78 win rate with that worthless 1 ton anchor around my neck. How ever will I survive?

Edited by hammerreborn, 06 April 2013 - 05:54 AM.

[MaxSizeis]

Ter Ushaka, on 03 April 2013 - 02:44 PM, said:

ECM already has many counters, PPC's, TAG, ECCM mode, and just straight out blowing up the mech(s) that's jamming your team. Players need to learn how to counter ECM, it is not God Mode.

<Weaponsystem> already has many counters, <Blowing sh*t up>, <Blowing Sh*t up>, and just straight out blowing up the mech(s) that's jamming our team. Players need to learn how to counter <Weaponsystem>, it is not God Mode.

[Sinthrow]

If you, the dav team, are unwilling or unable to correct the ecm module, you should at least give it the value it has.. it should have its own ELO values.. i.e.

ELO for light mechs
ELO for lights with ECM
ELO for Medium mechs
ELO for Medium mechs with ECM
ELO for heaveis
ELO for Assaults
ELO for Assaults with ECM

I don't understand how tyou think it is close to where you want it.. Really??
If you will not fix it, we need a counter , a ecm counter module, a 1 ton 1 slot counter. is this thing on??? test test.
Please pick some mechs that can install a ecm counter module 5 to 10 should do. and not the A1 Please. I had enought of the streak cat

Thank you for fixing the Missile damage issue quickly.
Please look into this and know that, I don't think ECM is where it should be.
Please look into the easy of use for the streaks at least have them have to have the target on the mech when firing I know its tons of work and code but they should require a little more skill to use.

Thanks for your time.

[Deathlike]

CECILOFS, on 06 April 2013 - 01:56 AM, said:

In other words, to counter a 1.5t piece of equipment that takes up no weapon hardpoints and is constantly on, you:

1. had to have 2 mechs working in perfect coordination
2. Had one of those mechs equipped with a 1t piece of equipment which takes up an energy slot constantly firing on the target (Literally constantly lest the missile lock break). This mech had to have LOS the whole time thus being exposed to fire from at least 1 Atlas.
3. An Assault mech dedicating almost all of its tonnage and crits to LRMs/Ammo (it must have been a boat since LRMs take forever to kill an Atlas let alone 2, especially when indirect fired).

You see the problem here?

Personally I like that it will stop screwing over friendly IFF, but I still think it needs to be toned down.

Adding seperate hardpoints for TAG and NARC would also be a great idea so you don't have to give up weapons for them.

The A1 is hurt most by this IMO. Unless you have a dedicated Tag carrier and/or dedicated anti-ECM mech on your team, it has no option but to boat SRMs. Taking LRMs or SSRMs means you risk your 65t mech being rendered useless by a 1.5t piece of equipment, which happens in approx. 100% of games.

I still think that PGI should temporarily let every mech equip ECM so they can get the picture about just how powerful it is when no-one drops without it.

A dedicated TAG point would be better seeing newbies build their mechs with 2 TAGs... which could have easily been 2 meds...

hammerreborn, on 06 April 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

So I'm going to do a bit of a rant here.



I'm really sick of this argument. TAG is the best 1 ton piece of equipment in the game. Hell, if I had a choice between ECM and TAG I'd pick TAG everytime. It does everything.

1) It's a tracer. Shoot TAG at target, get red crosshair, fire lasers. They hit EVERY TIME. Especially useful when aiming at a ravens legs.

2) It helps paint targets. Screw letters, follow the bullseye. It even paints targets under ECM coverage!

3) It's a straight up damage bonus for all LRMs on your team. Who doesn't like free damage? It also allows them to fire indirectly much, much easier than without.

4) It's the best offensive team weapon in the game. No other equipment provides an offensive bonus to your teammates

5) It has range. No brawling necessary!

6) And it does all that WITH NO HEAT. Ya, put an extra medium laser in there Jenner Ds, and as soon as you shut down, your face gets blown off.

If you are a light and you're not carrying TAG you have no damn excuse except for joke builds. You're just awful.

/TAGing since it's release


My stats:
JENNER JR7-D 509 325 183 1.78 565 258 2.19 165,616 368,790 1 day 18:49:11


Oh lord, only a 2.19 K/D ratio and 1.78 win rate with that worthless 1 ton anchor around my neck. How ever will I survive?

I think you miss the part that this isn't viable in higher levels of play.

Sure, it works in PUG matches (premades generally), because you KNOW that the the dependencies are there (TAG optimally helps teammates with LRMs, LRMs needs help with teammates spotting for them, usually with TAG).

In any random PUG match, there's actually ZERO guarantee that both LRMs AND TAG will be available to a player. It's actually easier to carry 1 med laser than TAG. With the depressed state of LRMs, there is less incentive to use LRMs.

Plus, in higher levels of play, if you find an assault mech, it'll probably be the D-DC carrying ECM. There's also a fairly good chance he has another D-DC buddy with ECM. Strictly using the TAG+LRM system will already be negated by this... as long as players are near the Atlas's "cloak" of influence, especially if both ECM Atlases are near each other. What also tends to happen in higher levels of play is seeing more ECM lights on the field... particularly the 3L... the ECM lights will tend to TARGET the missile boat and/or ignore it... since the threat of a missile boat becomes minimal, if non-existent (like Spider-5K 4MG designs). It's easier to target the TAGing light mech... because it's easier to remove the thing that causes an LRM boat to become a threat in the first place.

Although a Jenner is an option in carrying TAG, it's technically suboptimal to do it.. when you could do it on a 3L, or another ECM based light mech, which provides BOTH protection AND still have the upper hand with TAG.

You will almost never see LRMs in higher level play for good reason... so to say it works on PUGs is oh so true... but when things matter, ECM will be deployed a lot more in organized matches.. not random PUG matches where it may seem "good enough" but really "not sufficient" for consistent effectiveness for ANY type of match.

Edited by Deathlike, 06 April 2013 - 08:20 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Deathlike, on 06 April 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Plus, in higher levels of play, if you find an assault mech, it'll probably be the D-DC carrying ECM. There's also a fairly good chance he has another D-DC buddy with ECM. Strictly using the TAG+LRM system will already be negated by this... as long as players are near the Atlas's "cloak" of influence, especially if both ECM Atlases are near each other. What also tends to happen in higher levels of play is seeing more ECM lights on the field... particularly the 3L... the ECM lights will tend to TARGET the missile boat and/or ignore it... since the threat of a missile boat becomes minimal, if non-existent (like Spider-5K 4MG designs). It's easier to target the TAGing light mech... because it's easier to remove the thing that causes an LRM boat to become a threat in the first place.

What does a second D-DC have to do with being able to TAG targets? ECM doesn't counter TAG except if within the 180 meter effect. You can rain down on 8 D-DCs with a single Jenner with TAG.

Quote

Although a Jenner is an option in carrying TAG, it's technically suboptimal to do it.. when you could do it on a 3L, or another ECM based light mech, which provides BOTH protection AND still have the upper hand with TAG.

Jenner is the most optimal light, so you're wrong.

Quote

You will almost never see LRMs in higher level play for good reason... so to say it works on PUGs is oh so true... but when things matter, ECM will be deployed a lot more in organized matches.. not random PUG matches where it may seem "good enough" but really "not sufficient" for consistent effectiveness for ANY type of match.

No, LRMs aren't in higher level play because they are useless against teams that know what they are doing. LRMs are the easiest weapon to avoid in the game with two functional braincells, and that has nothing to do with ECM. "Competitive" play is about bringing the biggest alpha in the highest weight, and LRMs don't fit the bill for that. Most weapons aren't used in 8v8s, and ECM only counters one of those.

Edited by hammerreborn, 06 April 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[Chemie]

heat vision nerf (to the point of being useless) was the only viable counter to ECM. Now that is gone I expect to see more ECM (I know I will go back to it now). Why ECM makes you invisable is beyond me. ECM+ Free Null Shield.

[Treckin]

Your methodology in releasing these balance-less items one at a time rather then all together smacks of stupidity. Not trying to be mean, but its basically "we didnt want to wait to release all this content together, even though it all needs to be in the game together to be balanced, so, bummer."

You guys are such failboat - Im eating popcorn.

[Ashvins]

The biggest problem with ECM is it's NULL-SIG affect on all targeting systems. This is an attempt at putting in the NULL-SIG from TT into the game. The problem with this is that the NULL-SIG system was ONLY FOR THE EQUIPPED MECH. Not every mech within 200m of the equipped mech. It also took 7 crit slots (1 from each internal location save head). The cost was absorbent but took no tonnage.

ECM with it's 400k c-bills 2 crits and 1.5 tons make it the most OP individual piece of equipment in game. Compared to it's "counter's PPC + ADV Sens Module" ( 7 ton's 3 crits 1 module slot and 2.4 Mil c-bills) It's a steal, but not an effective counter. Add in tag which is a full counter but seriously limited by having to keep it on the target it is still way OP.

Now if PGI wanted to put in the null-sig as say a module/internal crit slot item with say a 6mil+ c-bill cost I'd be fine with that, but pull the NULL-SIG from ecm then it will be a balanced system. Keep the missile disruption on the ecm unit and it's bubble (+5 sec or so to lock for missile's) but the "no targeting" should only be for a NULL-SIG equipped mech. And it should cost to get it (I would suggest the 7 crit slots and at least 6mil c-bills).

[hammerreborn]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 06 April 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

GL fighti9ng the good fight with one of those I have on ignore because theyre bricks. No, really. Bricks. I say that because they are as much fun as arguing against. They never admit theyre wrong, they never admit PGI has faults, they never admit defeat. Its like a political argument or a religious debate. Theres no damn point because theyere an already filled cup. You cant fill a cup that is already full. They refuse to open room to grow.

Edited by hammerreborn, 06 April 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Vapor Trail]

hammerreborn, on 06 April 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

I'm really sick of this argument. TAG is the best 1 ton piece of equipment in the game. Hell, if I had a choice between ECM and TAG I'd pick TAG everytime. It does everything.

1) It's a tracer. Shoot TAG at target, get red crosshair, fire lasers. They hit EVERY TIME. Especially useful when aiming at a ravens legs.

2) It helps paint targets. Screw letters, follow the bullseye. It even paints targets under ECM coverage!

3) It's a straight up damage bonus for all LRMs on your team. Who doesn't like free damage? It also allows them to fire indirectly much, much easier than without.

4) It's the best offensive team weapon in the game. No other equipment provides an offensive bonus to your teammates

5) It has range. No brawling necessary!

6) And it does all that WITH NO HEAT. Ya, put an extra medium laser in there Jenner Ds, and as soon as you shut down, your face gets blown off.

I'm going to answer your points here with opinions and questions.

1) I believe this to be an effect that should be removed. You already have indication that you are hitting with TAG in that the crosshair icon pops up on the targeting. The "red crosshair" effect from hitting with TAG is redundant, and allows the effect you mention.

2) Yep, and would it be as useful as it is now if ECM weren't as powerful? It was changed to be more effective against ECM.

3) Yep. However this behavior isn't canon prior to the introduction of Semi-Guided LRMs in 3057.

4) NARC?

5) And where did that range come from? The range buff (up from TT stats) was specifically so it could be used to counter ECM more effectively.

6) Yep. All that for no heat... and alot of the effectiveness has causes that can be directly traced to the power of Guardian ECM in MWO.

As for picking ECM over TAG if you had a choice? Where is this artificial choice stipulated? There really isn't a choice between the two. If you can mount Guardian, you can mount both, so far as I'm aware. The only "choice" you have to make is between mounting TAG and mounting a Medium Laser.

In that choice, I'd agree, TAG is often the superior piece of equipment. But then again, I believe it's superior because of its effectiveness against ECM effects.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 06 April 2013 - 11:52 AM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

DocBach, on 05 April 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

The point is, why should I be required to take a PPC or a TAG to use my weapon system when all a pilot has to do to deny me is take a single piece of equipment that weighs a fraction of the weapons I want to employ, only as long as I shoot them with the counter?

Why does it take so much work to defeat a passive system with no negatives, additional equipment or skill required for its own use?

My C1F has 20 tons invested into LRMs. That's 7x2 for the launchers and 6 more tons for their ammo. A mere 1.5 ton device prevents me from being able to get locks on an enemy and any other enemy near the thing, meaning they're useless. If the ECM comes with 180 of me, and they often do, then I can't lock anyone, at all, even if they're not near him. Why would it have been bad to just make ECM nullify BAP/Artemis and that's it? Artemis=2tons; that alone is a profit for you. But if I ran BAP+Artemis, it'd be 3.5t vs 1.5, an even bigger profit. But instead it's lock immunity in addition to ignoring those devices. ECM is just OP. It has been since its PoS release patch, and at this point looks like it always will be. Takes months just to get them to look at the thing, and now they're basically telling us to shove it as they put in another pointless bandaid change in hopes of silencing us.

Btw I saw Garth in a 3L again yesterday. That right there is why they won't fix it.

Edited by Bluten, 06 April 2013 - 02:47 PM.

[Marcus Tanner]

hammerreborn, on 06 April 2013 - 05:46 AM, said:

TAG is the best 1 ton piece of equipment in the game. Hell, if I had a choice between ECM and TAG I'd pick TAG everytime. It does everything.

1) It's a tracer. Shoot TAG at target, get red crosshair, fire lasers. They hit EVERY TIME. Especially useful when aiming at a ravens legs.

2) It helps paint targets. Screw letters, follow the bullseye. It even paints targets under ECM coverage!

3) It's a straight up damage bonus for all LRMs on your team. Who doesn't like free damage? It also allows them to fire indirectly much, much easier than without.

4) It's the best offensive team weapon in the game. No other equipment provides an offensive bonus to your teammates

5) It has range. No brawling necessary!

6) And it does all that WITH NO HEAT. Ya, put an extra medium laser in there Jenner Ds, and as soon as you shut down, your face gets blown off.

If you are a light and you're not carrying TAG you have no damn excuse except for joke builds. You're just awful.

TAG is good if someone on your team has LRMs. If not, it's a niche item at best.

points 1, 2, and 3 have some substance to them. Point 4 amounts to "see point 3", point 5 doesn't exactly set TAG apart, and 6 is *exactly* as dumb as someone saying that ECM is good because it generates no heat. ECM doesn't generate heat, and it also doesn't make your mech glow bright orange. The absence of a drawback is not a benefit.

Theoretically you should be able to tell when your crosshairs are over a target, assuming you can aim. You shouldn't need TAG to tell whether your lasers will hit. Having said that, a fiend of mine in a Jenner once had a no-HUD bug and in that match he used his TAG laser as a substitute for crosshairs.

While it's nice to paint a target using TAG, it's much nicer to be able to prevent yourself from being painted by using ECM. The fuzzing and null-sig effect of ECM is so much more powerful than TAG-painting that I have trouble seeing how you put them in the same league.

So there's the damage bonus you give to friendly LRMs. Again, ECM hurts LRMs so much more than TAG helps LRMs that I'm left wondering how you could possibly think that the two items are comparable in power.

I think there's an *outstanding* excuse for not bringing TAG: If you're on an 8v8 team with no LRMs. At that point the coordination bonus you get for bringing TAG is the only thing to justify the tonnage, and if you're on TeamSpeak then calling targets for your team shouldn't be *that* hard. At that point save the ton and the slot and bring something more helpful.

Sinthrow, on 06 April 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

If you, the dav team, are unwilling or unable to correct the ecm module, you should at least give it the value it has.. it should have its own ELO values.. i.e.

ELO for light mechs
ELO for lights with ECM
ELO for Medium mechs
ELO for Medium mechs with ECM
ELO for heaveis
ELO for Assaults
ELO for Assaults with ECM

You can do far better than this. In fact, tabletop already has a system for handling how some mechs are better than others: Battle Value. It shouldn't exactly be hard to implement, and it wouldn't exactly take a lot of work to improve on the numbers Tabletop uses (God knows there are enough junky mechs with high BVs that the inner workings of the Battle Value calculation should not be sacred).

PGI saw a tractor, was offered a tractor, and they've decided to use an oxen to plow the field instead. It boggles my mind.

For God's sake, they don't even have to balance ECM for its tonnage: they could just give it a high BV. That would be *perfectly fine*. A solution is staring them in the face, and they turn it down.

Vapor Trail, on 06 April 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

3) Yep. However [TAG helping LRM accuracy] isn't canon prior to the introduction of Semi-Guided LRMs in 3057.

True. Before 3057, TAG is pretty much only there to call down Arrow IV missile artillery... which isn't in this game. I have no idea *why* that's the case, because Arrow IV sounds like a *great* artillery module to me. But again, PGI seems to like rejecting the ideas offered to them on a silver platter.

In tabletop, it takes special ammunition to take advantage of NARC and TAG. That's a righteous, royal pile of ********. It's one of the reasons that tabletop lacks the tactical depth associated with playable indirect fire mechanics. Tabletop just makes it too hard to do interesting things and that's one of the reasons why it could *never* be my only tabletop game. (EDIT: This lack of playable indirect fire mechanics is also the reason I'm not playing MWO right now. Enjoying this game is just too much work.) I almost always use C3 in my tabletop games, just to get that extra tactical depth associated with having another thing on the table to consider.

I get that PGI wants ECM to be a game-changer the way C3 is a game-changer, but PGI's effects for ECM all create frustration and they have included no way of accounting for how powerful it is relative to its tonnage. It's a terrible piece of design.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 06 April 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[Liquidx]

ECM is strong, there is no arguing that. If you had the choice to run with or without ECM on any mech of your choosing, you would be an ***** to run without it. The current "counters" to ECM are pretty laughable - but they can work in select situations.

I think the best way to fix ECM is not to necessarily nerf it directly, but to buff regular sensors. In other words, rather than allowing ECM to completely counter sensors regardless of range, regular sensors should have a "chance" to punch through the ECM bubble. As a side note, this occurs many times in lore. Now having said that, a "chance" is something no one wants to see - inconsistencies ruin gaming - but you can change the way ECM functions.

note: the math below is wrong - but you get the idea.
ECM currently makes it impossible to target/lock on a mech under the bubble from 0-2000m. This renders anything but direct fire weapons completely useless when ECM is encountered. Instead, why not have ECM simply halve the effectiveness of non ECM sensors? IE: if regular sensors can see (target) at 1000m, ECM could cut that in half, so it would only be target-able within 500m. These are arbitrary numbers of course, but changing this functionality opens doors for other equipment to be more significant. IE: if BAP were to also change and become useful, and extend sensor range by say 25%, then a mech outside of the ecm bubble would be target-able (and able to establish lock) at 1250m. A mech under the ecm bubble (normally target-able at 500m) would be able to be targeted (and establish lock) at 750m. Additionally, you could add the functionality to BAP to extend the ECM effectiveness by the same 25% so that reduces the ability to target mechs under the ECM bubble to 250m.

You can then add in the effectiveness of modules to further adjust and complicate the sensor game.

This is a simple way of creating a rock paper scissors mechanic that would work well.

IE:
ECM + BAP + module = mechs under the bubble are able to be targeted (and establish lock) by normal sensors within 200m, 450m with BAP, 500m with BAP + module
ECM + BAP = mechs under the bubble are able to be targeted (and establish lock) by normal sensors within 250m, 500m with BAP, 550m with BAP + module
ECM = mechs under the bubble are able to be targeted (and establish lock) by normal sensors within 500m, 750m with BAP, 800m with BAP + module
no ecm = mechs are able to be targeted (and establish lock) by normal sensors within 1000m, 1250 with BAP, 1300m with BAP + module

This means pilots that are more focused on staying hidden will be able to do so, and ECM will be very effective when combined with the other technologies, and creates incentive for players to carry these heavy sensor suites and module slots. This setup also doesn't completely @#$% players who chose to play with SSRM or LRM (and require locks).

Obviously the numbers could be adjusted based on play testing, but this seems far more fair and while ECM is still a godsend under this system, it doesn't make it omnipotent.

As far as IFF indicators go, ECM should hide friendly indicators of course, and perhaps even hide enemy indicators (as the drawback to ecm) - meaning if you're running ECM, you could potentially be blinding your own team within 180m (bubble size). I think this would encourage players to not group quite so tightly when combat starts, which would further limit the effectiveness of ECM in brawls. IE: mechs in the bubble are blind and see no indicators at all. Encountering Enemy ECM at range should remove their IFF signals, but not interfere with your own team's signals

Friendly IFF are seen when
- you are not inside an ECM bubble (friendly or enemy)
Enemy IFF are seen when
- neither they nor you are under an ECM bubble
- the enemy is within sensor range (see above chart)

remove disruption to the minimap/hud entirely.


edit: clarity re: target / lock on

Edited by Liquidx, 07 April 2013 - 01:29 AM.

[SquawkHawk]

ECM needs to weigh more if it is going to stay as it is (3 to 5 tons).
ECM should weigh enough that equiping it comes at the cost of Weapon Systems.
You then have to choose between being an ECM light with support weapons or a heavy hitting light.

Edited by SquawkHawk, 06 April 2013 - 02:42 PM.

[Rhakhas]

Liquidx, on 06 April 2013 - 02:00 PM, said:

ECM is strong, there is no arguing that. If you had the choice to run with or without ECM on any mech of your choosing, you would be an ***** to run without it. The current "counters" to ECM are pretty laughable - but they can work in select situations.


note: the math below is wrong - but you get the idea.
ECM currently makes it impossible to target a mech under the bubble from 0-2000m. This renders anything but direct fire weapons completely useless when ECM is encountered. Instead, why not have ECM simply halve the effectiveness of non ECM sensors? IE: if regular sensors can see (target) at 1000m, ECM could cut that in half, so it would only be target-able within 500m.

This actually is the way it currently works, but base sensor range is 800m and the reduction from ECM is 75% Which is why you can target an ECM mech between 180 and 200m, and out to 250m if you have the module. I think
BAP also ups the range, but I'm not positive on that.

Anyway, in my opinion the best fix for ECM would be to
1: Remove Counter mode from ECM
2: Separate Guardian (sensor range reduction outside of 180m) and Disrupt (nullification of sensors/missile lock within 180m) into two separate modes.
3: Add a Counter mode to BAP

Edited by Rhakhas, 06 April 2013 - 02:56 PM.

[Mystere]

Can the anti-ECM crowd please get their act together? On one hand some say that ECM is insignificant in competitive play. And yet on the other hand there are those who still say that 8-mans are ECM arms races.

Or are many self-proclaimed "competitive" anti-ECM players really "competitive" only in their dreams?

That is all.

Edited by Mystere, 06 April 2013 - 03:40 PM.

[DocBach]

To set one thing straight, I'm not anti ecm; I'm anti poorly balanced and implemented mechanics that cheapen gameplay. However individuals all have their own perspective on the matter, so one player who doesn't like ecm might not like it because of the effect it has on competitive play, while others may not be affected at all in competitive play but dislike it for other reasons. Regardless, attacks on semantics and syntax of an argument usually means your own position is weak. Your own position was admittedly you like ecm because it upsets players so much.

[StalaggtIKE]

Vapor Trail, on 06 April 2013 - 11:42 AM, said:

*snippet*

Basically summed up: TAGs usefulness is directly correlated to ECM's power. If ECM wasn't as useful, neither would TAG.

TAG was buffed in the first place to better counter ECM. The comparison between the two is moot. It's like comparing a hammer to a nail; the nail doesn't mean **** without the hammer.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 06 April 2013 - 05:29 PM.