1089 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

you just need to get some skill and get some hard weapons to use instead of relying on cheesy locks to do all your work for you. learn to meta

[Jestun]

DocBach, on 07 May 2013 - 07:52 AM, said:

you just need to get some skill and get some hard weapons to use instead of relying on cheesy locks to do all your work for you. learn to meta

What amuses me is how often this is repeated.

Lets compare difficulty of lasers vs. missiles.

Laser

1. Aim at target.
2. Click left mouse button.
3. Maitain target for 1 second - damage applied for the time you were on target (i.e. very forgiving as aiming correctly for 50% of the time still does 50% of the damage).

Missile

1. Aim at target.
2. Maintain target until lock (this can require longer than 1 second, especially if manoeuvring your mech while aiming - cannot proceed until lock is achieved).
3. Click left mouse button.

The main differences are that missiles then retain the lock meaning they need less target lock for repeated shots and that getting a lock can take longer than the fire time of a laser.

[Livewyr]

Jestun, on 07 May 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

What amuses me is how often this is repeated.

Lets compare difficulty of lasers vs. missiles.

Laser

1. Aim at target.
2. Click left mouse button.
3. Maitain target for 1 second - damage applied for the time you were on target (i.e. very forgiving as aiming correctly for 50% of the time still does 50% of the damage).

Missile

1. Aim at target.
2. Maintain target until lock (this can require longer than 1 second, especially if manoeuvring your mech while aiming - cannot proceed until lock is achieved).
3. Click left mouse button.

The main differences are that missiles then retain the lock meaning they need less target lock for repeated shots and that getting a lock can take longer than the fire time of a laser.

Could you rephrase that? In current rendition I can't take it seriously...

[General Taskeen]

Thontor, on 07 May 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

I don't have a problem with mechs 800m away because it only takes a second to move 50m to 750m and get a lock with TAG

Except for any balanced LRM 'stock' design with no TAG. Either equip a TAG, sacrifice an energy hardpoint, or you're SOL. Consider the original intent of the Catapult A1, with LRMs and no energy hard points to speak of. And no, the answer is not, "then customize it for close range." The answer is PGI did not balance correctly. And that's all there is to it.

[hammerreborn]

Thontor, on 07 May 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

If you can't get within 750m without being out in the open that's just bad positioning. Find another position



Stock is irrelevant.

The A1 is the only mech that can't bring it's own TAG. So it can't really go it alone... Thankfully its a team game and all it needs is a teammate with TAG, and/or NARC, and/or BAP, and/or ECCM, etc to counter the enemy's ECM and allow you to lock on.

Firing against ECM from range is not a problem. Not that hard to do.

Nearby ECM preventing you from getting a missile lock at all is a big problem... Thankfully carrying BAP will help with that immensely.

Exactly, it's a team game. Play with me and you can LRM all you want.

/TAGging all day erry day
//Soon to be in ur base, UAVing your peeps

Edited by hammerreborn, 07 May 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[Twisted Power]

Thontor, on 07 May 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

If you can't get within 750m without being out in the open that's just bad positioning. Find another position

If you can show me how to self TAG something without being in the open (IE visible and can get shot) I will retract what I said.

[Burning Chrome]

Thontor, on 07 May 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

I don't have a problem with mechs 800m away because it only takes a second to move 50m to 750m and get a lock with TAG

Except you shouldn't have to do that in the first place...,nor should it even be possible when considering canon Battletech.

[Twisted Power]

Well LRMS which are an indirect fire weapon are at a disadvantage if they cannot be used that way. You would be better just using PPC if you need LOS. Which brings back to my original point that the changes do not allow LRMS to function in a worth while way and the only way to once again make them worth equipting is to remove the" can't target/lock me/my team because I have ECM." The BAP change does not do this. It really only affect Streaks in the current gameplay.

[hammerreborn]

Twisted Power, on 07 May 2013 - 09:47 AM, said:

Well LRMS which are an indirect fire weapon are at a disadvantage if they cannot be used that way. You would be better just using PPC if you need LOS. Which brings back to my original point that the changes do not allow LRMS to function in a worth while way and the only way to once again make them worth equipting is to remove the" can't target/lock me/my team because I have ECM." The BAP change does not do this. It really only affect Streaks in the current gameplay.

If you can't figure out how to use LRMs indirectly (especially in the poptard online meta) you need to:

A) get some friends;
B ) Get some skill; or
C) Play an easier game like hello kitty adventure

ECM is a joke when everyone but an A1 is using PPCs and light mechs have become all but non-existant.

[Twisted Power]

hammerreborn, on 07 May 2013 - 09:53 AM, said:

If you can't figure out how to use LRMs indirectly (especially in the poptard online meta) you need to:

A) get some friends;
B ) Get some skill; or
C) Play an easier game like hello kitty adventure

ECM is a joke when everyone but an A1 is using PPCs and light mechs have become all but non-existant.

I have friends and skill and we win often. We are not stupid and thus do not use LRMS. I would like to use LRMS, but they suck. In fact!, The reason everybody uses PPC is because LRMS suck. You my friend have just proved my points. kaythanksbye

[General Taskeen]

Thontor, on 07 May 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Stock is irrelevant.

Stock Mechs are in the game. You can buy one today. PGI encouraged it by adding them. Trials are Stock. Stocks are not irrelevant. Your logic, however, is definitely irrelevant.

Therefore, PGI did not balance correctly. Simple as that.

Edited by General Taskeen, 07 May 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

General Taskeen, on 07 May 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

Stock Mechs are in the game. You can buy one today. PGI encouraged it by adding them. Trials are Stock. Stocks are not irrelevant. Your logic, however, is definitely irrelevant.

Therefore, PGI did not balance correctly. Simple as that.

Actually, Stock Loadouts are going to be obsolete very soon, because as part of the Game Launch they are scrapping the Trial Mech system, and will go back to the idea of a Starter Mech for new players... a starter Mech that is customizable. Stock Loadouts are destined to become merely inspirational loadouts and not by-any-means required or locked.

[Kaijin]

Thontor, on 07 May 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

The A1 is the only mech that can't bring it's own TAG. So it can't really go it alone... Thankfully its a team game and all it needs is a teammate with TAG, and/or NARC, and/or BAP, and/or ECCM, etc to counter the enemy's ECM and allow you to lock on.

Since it's a team game and all, and independence is a bad thing, wouldn't it make sense because energy weapon mechs use so much more juice to fire their weapons than missile mechs do, they should depend on missile mechs for power, without which help they would be unable to fire their PPCs and such? Let's say there's a 60m extension cord between the two, and if they run off in opposite directions, they'd unplug and both be screwed because one needs the other to TAG for them, and the other one needs the other to keep it's impressive weaponry powered. Cooperation is the name of the game after all, right?

Edited by Kaijin, 07 May 2013 - 01:13 PM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

"Learn to meta" ... that's funny ...

My "meta game" is, run mechs and builds that are generally balanced between heat, damage, range, and speed. These are mechs that I like, are suited to my playstyle, and I have fun in. Am I doing it wrong?

Comparing the stats for my CPLT-C1 (the only mech I currently have LRMs installed on - 2x ALRM-15 w/ TAG, BAP, and 3 MPL for support) and CPLT-K2 (the only mech I have w/ PPCs - 2x ERPPC, 2x MPL and 2x MG for fun and annoyance) ... I enjoy both mechs, and do about equally well with them (even after the missile rebalance).

I carry BAP in my C1 for the quicker lock time and TAG to improve missile grouping and burn through distant ECM ... I take a special amount of pleasure from TAGing light ECM mechs and raining LRMs on them (just as I imagine they enjoy closing with me and making it so that I cannot lock on anyone). I also carry a target decay module, and take a certain amount of pleasure locking on and LRMing poptards.

I am the first to admit that I'm not a "great" player ... and if becoming a "great" player means I have to build and run a mech that I don't like (i.e.: Any "Boat" Cat, 4+ PPC anything, jump sniping, anything with ECM, etc.), then I will be happy being an experienced casual player, and therefore "losing" the meta game.

[Kyone Akashi]

Burning Chrome, on 07 May 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

So nothing really new...same bizarre approach to "balance" by continuing to make weapons/equipment do things it never did in function in ways outside of Battletech lore.

:/


MWO, where one piece of scouting equipment is mounted to fight like a brawler, and where another piece of scouting equipment is mounted to help others in a firefight against the former.

I'm not sure whether I should find it funny or sad when the Beagle Active Probe isn't really slotted for probing. Makes the sensor bonus a true bonus in the sense that it's just a free extra to why people actually use it.

But it's no worse than the Guardian-suite turning from supporting sneaky movement to granting immunity to an entire range of weapon systems, I guess. I really love this game, but as far as ECM is concerned it just seems as if the devs are derailing it more with every step they take to "solve" it. There's not even a way to pretend it all has a technical background now, with the upcoming change making all allied 'Mechs magically retain their friendly ID whilst at the same time having our onboard computers refuse a targeting solution for ECM-shielded hostiles.

[hammerreborn]

Kyone Akashi, on 08 May 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

:/


MWO, where one piece of scouting equipment is mounted to fight like a brawler, and where another piece of scouting equipment is mounted to help others in a firefight against the former.

I'm not sure whether I should find it funny or sad when the Beagle Active Probe isn't really slotted for probing. Makes the sensor bonus a true bonus in the sense that it's just a free extra to why people actually use it.

But it's no worse than the Guardian-suite turning from supporting sneaky movement to granting immunity to an entire range of weapon systems, I guess. I really love this game, but as far as ECM is concerned it just seems as if the devs are derailing it more with every step they take to "solve" it. There's not even a way to pretend it all has a technical background now, with the upcoming change making all allied 'Mechs magically retain their friendly ID whilst at the same time having our onboard computers refuse a targeting solution for ECM-shielded hostiles.

How exactly do you go about granting sneaky movement without granting immunity to LRMs? LRMs need locks to fire, locking prevents sneaky movement. You either have one or the other.

[Livewyr]

hammerreborn, on 08 May 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

How exactly do you go about granting sneaky movement without granting immunity to LRMs? LRMs need locks to fire, locking prevents sneaky movement. You either have one or the other.

Umm.. the way they used to do it..

Terrain.

[Twisted Power]

hammerreborn, on 08 May 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

How exactly do you go about granting sneaky movement without granting immunity to LRMs? LRMs need locks to fire, locking prevents sneaky movement. You either have one or the other.

You do not "grant sneaky movement". The player uses sneaky tactics, which by the way ECM is not a tactic it is an object. Being under ECM isn't sneaky when you can still see them right in front of you. And by your logic then why just LRMs? Why not grant immunity to all weapons being able to fire at you. Then you would be super sneaky!

[Livewyr]

Twisted Power, on 08 May 2013 - 06:26 AM, said:

And by your logic then why just LRMs? Why not grant immunity to all weapons being able to fire at you. Then you would be super sneaky!

Already offered him that, he didn't like it.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

lolz

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 08 May 2013 - 06:49 AM.