87 replies to this topic

[Khanublikhan]

The original Battletech Tabletop (TT) game had a heat table which represented the penalties caused by excessive heat stored within a mech chassis. I believe some of the woes afflicting MWO currently are due to a lack of such penalties - leading to excessive alpha striking with impunity.

The penalties on the original heat table included movement penalties, accuracy penalties, chance for shutdown, and ammo explosion, scaling up in severity over a 1-30 range.

Does that heat scale of penalties need to be included in MWO design? If so, given MWO is not identical to the TT, what new and different penalties would be appropriate? (i.e. Graphical Effects, Sound Effects, Effects on how installed Mech equipment works). At what point do you think a Mech should start to feel the effects - that is, at what point do you think the game as is, is currently *seriously* flawed? Should heat effects begin to apply gradually / suddenly at this flaw point?

Edited by Khanublikhan, 11 April 2013 - 11:07 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

[jeffsw6]

I think mechs should be damaged when they over-heat.

[Smk]

Stoicblitzer, on 11 April 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Basically there were risks to running hot and overheating your mech on the TT. A stalker that is constantly alpha'ing a bunch of ppcs and overheating could mess his own mech up. It demands heat management so you can't just spam stuff without a care.

Assuming that pic means you're confused anyways.

[Maliconus]

All i have to say is "Yes" there should be heat penilties.

[Roadbeer]

Implementing that system, you will watch the pace of combat CRAWL, While that would be appealing to a lot of people and require smarter play (something I wouldn't be opposed to), It would loose a TON of it's widespread appeal.

I'm all for keeping as close to TT as possible but as has been shown time and time again, converting a TT game into a 3D Real time environment, requires you throw some stuff out the window... and the TT train left long ago.

The other point against this... look how much time has been invested into weapon balancing, and it's still not there. Could you imagine throwing in a heat damage variable to every time you pulled the trigger after your first overheat?

[Khanublikhan]

Link:
http://sarna.s3.amaz...attlemechrs.pdf

The heat scale is in the bottom right hand corner.

[Khanublikhan]

Roadbeer, on 11 April 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Implementing that system, you will watch the pace of combat CRAWL, While that would be appealing to a lot of people and require smarter play (something I wouldn't be opposed to), It would loose a TON of it's widespread appeal.

I'm all for keeping as close to TT as possible but as has been shown time and time again, converting a TT game into a 3D Real time environment, requires you throw some stuff out the window... and the TT train left long ago.

The other point against this... look how much time has been invested into weapon balancing, and it's still not there. Could you imagine throwing in a heat damage variable to every time you pulled the trigger after your first overheat?

It does not have to absolute / causing your mech to blow up! It could slow you down / turning you into an immobile turret until you accept sensibly. It might involve displaying that heat visually and aurally inside and outside the cockpit -- appropriate to a computer game.

But underpinning the level of these 'effects' in a videogame, is a proportionate scale - akin, but not identical to the original heat scale. You follow?

Edited by Khanublikhan, 11 April 2013 - 11:24 AM.

[GODzillaGSPB]

Smk, on 11 April 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Basically there were risks to running hot and overheating your mech on the TT. A stalker that is constantly alpha'ing a bunch of ppcs and overheating could mess his own mech up. It demands heat management so you can't just spam stuff without a care.

Assuming that pic means you're confused anyways.

I usually don't overheat, but when I recently tried in the testing grounds I found that there is already a damage mechanic working. After the third or so override my internals were critically damaged. I exploded on the next one.

So, the ppc-Stalkers should be careful with the override.

[Roadbeer]

Oh, I understand what your saying, and I'm not opposed to it in the sense that it would increase immersion and gimp the boats (something I don't believe needs doing).

The thing is, it would slow the rate of play. Something some people seem to have issue with. Look at all the QQing about the larger maps. Putting another layer of heat management penalties on top of the shutdown/explode is going to crawl out combat, and I think would cause many people to leave.

It short, would it be cool... I think so, but you and I are on the page of smarter play. Something that on the whole, a lot who come to this game aren't interested in. You're on a forum where the other day someone wanted this ported to a console.

Edited by Roadbeer, 11 April 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[Khanublikhan]

Lots of Heat:

• Mech becomes immobile until it cools sufficiently.
  
• Outside cockpit: visual effect of venting from mech - heat signature increased dramatically on thermal view.
  
• Inside cockpit: visual effect of steam / heat shimmer effects in air over consoles / condensation trickles down cockpit glass, distracting warning light revolves).
  
• Systems: Sensitive systems like BAP, ECM and MASC become inactive or work intermittently.
  
• Zoom and Visual Modes: Becomes inactive.

Little Heat:

Edited by Khanublikhan, 11 April 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[shabowie]

In order to have a heat scale and an interesting heat system in general they would need to dramatically ramp up heat dissipation and lower heat capacity. A side effect of this would be 4+ PPC builds and other high alpha builds going away. This has been talked about quite a bit.

[Khanublikhan]

Thontor, on 11 April 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...evs-20-answers/

Thank you for the link. That was a long time ago - and balancing issues now make me think, a heat scale should be rising up the agenda.

Also: Some of the graphical and sound effects inside and outside the cockpit are well within the capabilities of the engine to do - and could be entertaining to witness.

[Ugg]

I agree.
I hope they do add something.

Implementing negative effects could possibly allow them to "nerf" to the current heat system a bit. Real double heat-sinks perhaps?

I think it would also help keep the energy boating in check.

Fingers crossed.

[Royalewithcheese]

As someone who mostly runs big ballistic weapons, preferably in pairs, I am fully in support of heat penalties

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 11 April 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Jack Lazarus]

Having all movement (viewpoint, cursor, travel) slow down as heat rises would be both simple and fitting with the way mechs are supposed to be portrayed.

I also think it would be downright fun too. Just picture the hot spider vs. hot commando fight. Two lights moving like they were Atlases because they're both at 95% heat and neither one wanted to disengage and cool off.

[raygun]

Im surprised no one has done this but; go into a mech training map, hit shutdown override and blast away past your heat threshold. Stuff happens to the mech when run in heat override. How do people not test these things out?

[Khanublikhan]

Royalewithcheese, on 11 April 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

As someone who mostly runs big ballistic weapons, preferably in pairs, I am fully in support of heat penalties

I suspect they would increase the chance of ammunition explosion at the same time. Oh, did I say that out loud?

[Vasces Diablo]

Accuracy penalty wouldn't really apply, and I believe that if you use the shutdown over ride, you can blow up your ammo.

But yes, I'm all for penalties for running high heat.

[Jack Lazarus]

raygun, on 11 April 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Im surprised no one has done this but; go into a mech training map, hit shutdown override and blast away past your heat threshold. Stuff happens to the mech when run in heat override. How do people not test these things out?

Pretty much everyone that comes to this forum is aware of damage penalties from overheating. What is being discussed in this thread is the idea of having a heat system that is more like how BattleTech is meant to be, with small penalties that start off very low on the heat scale and grow quickly as your heat escalates, rather than an 'all or nothing' system.