253 replies to this topic

[Uncleclint]

Fighting against Poptarts is actually fun.

A - There´s unfortunately not as many poptarts out there as mentioned in this whole thread. Maybe in 8man groups, that i dunno.

B - Poptarting snipers seem to almost always forget that a real sniper would never fire a second shot from the same position, which actually makes em quite easy and predictable targets once they come up behind their hills. Shooting at P-tards with Gauss and AC20´s takes a while to learn but is totally worth it, utter fun. Watch how they miss their alphas after you hit em and enjoy crippling their... uhm whatever you hit.

C - Jump Jets seriously reduce your Mechs damage and/or heat dissipation potential (by 2 tons per one JJ). Is that really worth it? In TT i´d say yes but this ain´t TT...

D - Most of the maps provide enough cover to work your way up to those P-tards, when you´re in a Brawler. And quite often you will discover that many of the jumpsniping Assaults are real bad players when it comes to close range, even if not they miss some tonnage of weapons or heat sinks. If you´re in a light Mech, even better - go for the rear armor.

[Tremendous Upside]

^^
The problem with jump jets comes down to one thing only. The "lift" dynamic is broken. I don't know how many folks have bothered to "test" the effects of having 1 or more jump jets, but as it stands now, you get about 13-14m of lift just by adding a single jet onto anything. Just go into the testing grounds and try it yourself. With an HGN with 1 JJ, you can vault to the top of the cap-space mining tower in one blast. With my TBT-7M (3 jets), I get maybe 2-3m higher (if that). My jenner with 4 jets gets about the same... yet if you look in the mechlab, you'll see my HGN's should be capped at 6m. There's your problem. Want to re-balance the game? Balance it around that. Taking 2 tons off for a single jump jet is easy. Taking 6-8 tons - or even 10? Totally different story. And the impact on the CTF-3D would be every bit as bad.

There is currently no tradeoff to have to make in jump jet equipped mechs. The HGN can carry the loadout of an atlas with ease - and can jump to take advantage of terrain. If you have to start compromising weapons to pull that off? Totally different story...

Edited by Banky, 29 April 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Threat Doc]

And that's another thing! The NUMBER of Jump Jets your 'Mech carries is supposed to be EQUAL to your Walking rate / 10.8. If a 'Mech is supposed to have a walk of 32.4 kph, then it MUST carry a minimum of 1 Jump Jet and a maximum of 3. Highlander's should be required to carry 6 tons of Jump Jet equipment, while a Jenner should be required to carry 4 in order to get 30m more distance on their jump. The way jump jets are in the game, right now, is garbage, and I knew it would be. There are design limitations that should be regarded, and jumps should be short-distance, and in accordance with the rules of the TT game; ESPECIALLY Jump Jets should be in-line with the tabletop game.

[Tremendous Upside]

Well right now, they're more or less "fixed". The duration of your jump is limited universally to the amount of fuel that's available. So the "distance" you jump is dependent on the speed of your mech. Height is virtually fixed as well... So you're getting mechs built around 1 jet, not having to make any real sacrifices at all across the rest of the design. That wouldn't be the case if they at least "scaled up" per jet in a reasonable fashion. Start having to "find" 6-10 tons off any build and you'll be trading off somewhere. Your still be able to create fully viable builds - but they might have to be a little more rounded with some lighter weapons and not packed full of top tier LR ones.

[thepartisan]

I've been pondering a lot recently about this specific topic and thinking about a answer. For me as I experience it, this game is very much a Rock/Paper/Scissors concept. Especially in regards to poptarting. Eventually when people realise a certain builds' weakness the Meta just shuffles its little hand a bit more. Of all the games I played today, I only saw 1 poptart who died fairly quickly. There is in fact a proliferation in brawler builds (the rock) that seems to be the counter to jumping jacks. So in my opinion a change in balance isn't really required. It will happen by itself.

[Lord Psycho]

I do have this odd feeling about SPiders and their jumpjets..they slow down to 40 kph way too quickly especially if it was just going at 120+ kph....almost like momentum is a bit messed up...or are they saying the air drag is huge on it?


anyways I think people need to undersatnd many jumpsnipers are likely to be alpha builds with long range capabilites...

I really need people to come and do short range pushes at the enemy in that case. Never let the opponent keep and hold a formation or line. Always break them apart and charge. The more enemies with their back turned are more enemies likely to die.

I personally use Jumpjets to attack people behind buildings, run over the next building behind them and then go around and jump over another building to attack. Unfortunately no one follows my attacks so i get focused to obilivion..and the opponent goes back to jump sniping.

[Tremendous Upside]

Lord Psycho, on 29 April 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

I do have this odd feeling about SPiders and their jumpjets..they slow down to 40 kph way too quickly especially if it was just going at 120+ kph....almost like momentum is a bit messed up...or are they saying the air drag is huge on it?


anyways I think people need to undersatnd many jumpsnipers are likely to be alpha builds with long range capabilites...

I really need people to come and do short range pushes at the enemy in that case. Never let the opponent keep and hold a formation or line. Always break them apart and charge. The more enemies with their back turned are more enemies likely to die.

I personally use Jumpjets to attack people behind buildings, run over the next building behind them and then go around and jump over another building to attack. Unfortunately no one follows my attacks so i get focused to obilivion..and the opponent goes back to jump sniping.

Get on Comstar NA and get yourself some meat shields...

[Threat Doc]

thepartisan, on 29 April 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

So in my opinion a change in balance isn't really required. It will happen by itself.

I sure hope you're right. I stopped playing anything related to bloody stupid ridiculous MechWarrior IV, even with the positive changes made by MekTek, because of all the pop-tarding.

I keep hearing there are tactics and common-sense ideas that can be used to deal with single jump snipers, and multiples, and those are all fine and good, something to be striven for. I just wish no changes had to be made due to what I still view as an exploit. There are, after all -and, again, this is my opinion-, good tactics, viable tactics that are fair in the game but not good, and then there's just dishonorable garbage. The use of jump-jets should be tied to forward momentum, and the 'Mech should shake so badly that getting an actual lock on a target while you're jumping actually is a matter of skill, not just placing your reticule over the target and pulling the trigger.

[TheSteelRhino]

I love this thread

"You cannot add shake or jumpjets wouldnt be useful in a brawl"
- really? With the current slow liftoff I love it when a highlander tries to jump away from a medium. It's like YOU CANNOT miss

Jumpjets in lore vault u into the air and shove the pilot back into the seat. Its supposed to be fast

Its also supposed to be hard to hit and target with a jumping mech

They just dont work correctly right now.

Energy weapons are now to cool that state rewind is in place

What is needed is the following
1) buff jump jet velocity
2) add some vibration while the jets are actually firing
3) increase. JJ heat some and increase heat output on ppc/erppc/large laser/er large laser
4). And if you blow the landing and take damage, I think there should be a 50% chance of a fall

If a tactic is SO easy, that it is the default that over half the players use then it is broken. Just like he LRM dmg issue, plague of splat cats, raven online (prior to net code and state rewind)

Of course it is a valid tactic. It should not be forbidden. However, it should not be this easy . You are flying a non aerodynamic object (I am sorry but most mechs are not very aerodynamic looking).

Edited by Rhinehardt Ritter, 29 April 2013 - 10:26 AM.

[TruePoindexter]

Kay Wolf, on 29 April 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

I sure hope you're right. I stopped playing anything related to bloody stupid ridiculous MechWarrior IV, even with the positive changes made by MekTek, because of all the pop-tarding.

I keep hearing there are tactics and common-sense ideas that can be used to deal with single jump snipers, and multiples, and those are all fine and good, something to be striven for. I just wish no changes had to be made due to what I still view as an exploit. There are, after all -and, again, this is my opinion-, good tactics, viable tactics that are fair in the game but not good, and then there's just dishonorable garbage. The use of jump-jets should be tied to forward momentum, and the 'Mech should shake so badly that getting an actual lock on a target while you're jumping actually is a matter of skill, not just placing your reticule over the target and pulling the trigger.

That's not really fair though - you have to constantly change. A deep game is going to have constantly evolving tactics and so you must change to stay competitive. You can't expect to not have to adapt unless the game is shallow.

[Just wanna play]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 29 April 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

Energy weapons are now to cool that state rewind is in place

3) increase. JJ heat some and increase heat output on ppc/erppc/large laser/er large laser

I agree with all statements except this one, especially when it comes to ppcs, imo ppcs need a buff, they are the strongest energy weapons and have worse damage per ton, and keep in mind energy weapons are already the hottest weapon in the game, ac/20 produces less heat then large laser, and there are bound to be multiple ones on a larger mech, as opposed to only 1 ac/20 on most assaults/heavies and you think they should be hotter???

do you want to completely kill heavier energy weapons????

and the heat of the er ll means it is only worth considering if you know you will be on certain maps (like alpine) where you often engage at ranges greater then 450m, any closer and its to hot to be as useful when the large laser is perfectly fine

and imo ppcs have bad range, i think 540 m simply isnt very good for such a hot weapon, you NEED the er ppcs to be a real sniper, and they still loss damage past 810m, which is pretty bad compared to other weapon types, while still producing A LOT of heat

and within 90m, ppcs reduce their own power to prevent damage to the user, yet still produce the same amount of heat, wtf??

[Phoenix Gray]

KrazedOmega, on 26 April 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

The poptarting might not be quite as bad as it was on the weekend but there's still too many of them for my liking. The game has turned into hiding behind a ridge and sniping anything that moves. And when you're a brawler like I am, it makes the game very boring.

They need to add a massive amount of screen shake when JJ's are in use. That would stop most of the poptarts.

Gosh, if only there were some sort of indirect-fire weapon system that could drop its rounds behind those concealing ridgelines, maybe assisted by some sort of target registration equipment mounted on other mechs. But where could we find something like that...?

[Lord of All]

TruePoindexter, on 29 April 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

That's not really fair though - you have to constantly change. A deep game is going to have constantly evolving tactics and so you must change to stay competitive. You can't expect to not have to adapt unless the game is shallow.

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

Quote

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy

[TruePoindexter]

Lord of All, on 29 April 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder
No battle plan survives contact with the enemy

QFT

[Threat Doc]

TruePoindexter, on 29 April 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

That's not really fair though - you have to constantly change. A deep game is going to have constantly evolving tactics and so you must change to stay competitive. You can't expect to not have to adapt unless the game is shallow.

Okay, I absolutely agree with this. However, paraphrasing a prior recent post in this thread, a tactic should not be SO easy that it becomes a majority tactic, either. I should not be the only one on the battlefield that has to change tactics. A tactic, by general definition, is something used to take an advantage away from an opponent for a short period of time. If pop-tarding is so effective that I have to drop hundreds of LRMs on-target and keep one of my team-mates in place just to maintain spotting for me, and if it's so effective that one can get around to combat that opponent, though it takes a good deal of time to do so, and leads to a bad attrition value, then it's too easy and needs to be debuffed in some way. The aforementioned potentials for this (increased shaking during launch to disrupt targeting, increased leg damage on landing to make jumping solely-vertically prohibitive, etc.) could be instituted to make jumping a more even-handed movement type in combat, without restricting its use in brawling all that much, and it would restrict or eliminate pop-tards.

Just wanna play, on 29 April 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

...they are the strongest energy weapons and have worse damage per ton, and keep in mind energy weapons are already the hottest weapon in the game, ac/20 produces less heat then large laser, and there are bound to be multiple ones on a larger mech, as opposed to only 1 ac/20 on most assaults/heavies and you think they should be hotter???

An AC/20 also has a maximum range of, what, 270m, whereas a PPC has a nominal range of twice that? If a PPC is raising heat:damage commensurate to the tabletop game, then you have it right. 10 heat, 10 damage.

Quote

and the heat of the er ll means it is only worth considering if you know you will be on certain maps (like alpine) where you often engage at ranges greater then 450m, any closer and its to hot to be as useful when the large laser is perfectly fine

The standard Large Laser, except for the range cut, is a far better weapon than an ER LL, anyway.

Quote

and imo ppcs have bad range, i think 540 m simply isnt very good for such a hot weapon, you NEED the er ppcs to be a real sniper, and they still loss damage past 810m, which is pretty bad compared to other weapon types, while still producing A LOT of heat

Yes, but you don't have reloads, and you should be grateful the devs are letting you get away with 810m for extended range. A PPC is a Particle Projection Cannon, and the chained lightning can only reach out to so many particles before it fizzles. 540m is too long for the PPC, but I appreciate the developers leaving it at tabletop distances.

Quote

and within 90m, ppcs reduce their own power to prevent damage to the user, yet still produce the same amount of heat, wtf??

Admittedly, this is something I've never really been able to figure out. However, perhaps the chained lightning buildup -remember, the PPC is NOT a laser, per se- is too weak beyond those points and the weapon has to compensate to make as much damage output as possible; hence the additional heat.

Anyway, I'm off to school... it's finals week and I have a presentation to make tonight for Sociology. Wish me luck, fella's. I'll try to answer more, later.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 29 April 2013 - 02:35 PM.

[TheSteelRhino]

Just wanna play, on 29 April 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:

I agree with all statements except this one, especially when it comes to ppcs, imo ppcs need a buff, they are the strongest energy weapons and have worse damage per ton, and keep in mind energy weapons are already the hottest weapon in the game, ac/20 produces less heat then large laser, and there are bound to be multiple ones on a larger mech, as opposed to only 1 ac/20 on most assaults/heavies and you think they should be hotter???

do you want to completely kill heavier energy weapons????

and the heat of the er ll means it is only worth considering if you know you will be on certain maps (like alpine) where you often engage at ranges greater then 450m, any closer and its to hot to be as useful when the large laser is perfectly fine

and imo ppcs have bad range, i think 540 m simply isnt very good for such a hot weapon, you NEED the er ppcs to be a real sniper, and they still loss damage past 810m, which is pretty bad compared to other weapon types, while still producing A LOT of heat

and within 90m, ppcs reduce their own power to prevent damage to the user, yet still produce the same amount of heat, wtf??

Of course i don't hate energy weapons. But ballistics aren't being used much now either
Ppc range and er ppc range is fine. So you think 6 ppc stalkers are a good thing? In TT and lore 2 pp s we a pretty big deal, 3 basically unheard of. 4 on clan warhawk(masakari) was like incredible
Yet now its commonplace . If you pull trigger on 5 or 6 er ppc/erppc they should be pulling the flash roasted remains of your pilot out after the battle.

Now if energy weps were a little hotter and jj's produced some reasonable heat then that would help things a bit by requiring more HEAT mgmt.

Edited by Rhinehardt Ritter, 29 April 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[Just wanna play]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 29 April 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

Of course i don't hate energy weapons. But ballistics aren't being used much now either
Ppc range and er ppc range is fine. So you think 6 ppc stalkers are a good thing? In TT and lore 2 pp s we a pretty big deal, 3 basically unheard of. 4 on clan warhawk(masakari) was like incredible
Yet now its commonplace . If you pull trigger on 5 or 6 er ppc/erppc they should be pulling the flash roasted remains of your pilot out after the battle.

Now if energy weps were a little hotter and jj's produced some reasonable heat then that would help things a bit by requiring more HEAT mgmt.

ballistic weapons arent used as much because their hard points aren't nearly as common, i see plenty of ballistic weapon in game, but they are obviously not as common as energy weapons

i just think there needs to be a REAL long range energy weapon, again,being with in 540m just for a long range weapon to do 10 dmg is terrible, and if people close in on you damage goes down 2, and they are so heavy that you can only mount so many with out making a terrible mech, have you played an awesome-8q/8m??? easily out sniped, pretty hot considering only 30 damage at best (think about that for a second), assualt with 30 damage at best anbd thats with in 540m or less, and ITS A FIRE SUPPORT MECH), you might as well switch out the ppcs for er laserz, better range, heat, and you can pack more on, so what exactly is the point of a ppc these days?

i don't think 6 ppc stalkers are good, have you seen the amount of compromises they have???


they should put one of our 6 ppc stalkers in a book, table top, or what ever you are talking about, seems like it would cause quite an interesting reaction among the characters

[Just wanna play]

Kay Wolf, on 29 April 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

If a PPC is raising heat:damage commensurate to the tabletop game, then you have it right. 10 heat, 10 damage.

Admittedly, this is something I've never really been able to figure out. However, perhaps the chained lightning buildup -remember, the PPC is NOT a laser, per se- is too weak beyond those points and the weapon has to compensate to make as much damage output as possible; hence the additional heat.

no, the reason it reduces the damage is to prevent the emp effect from affecting the user (of course some how in this game that only affects ecm anyways)

didn't 10 damage go a lot further in T then in this game???

[Just wanna play]

Kay Wolf, on 29 April 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

Yes, but you don't have reloads, and you should be grateful the devs are letting you get away with 810m for extended range. A PPC is a Particle Projection Cannon, and the chained lightning can only reach out to so many particles before it fizzles. 540m is too long for the PPC, but I appreciate the developers leaving it at tabletop distances.

Yet its still the "long range energy weapon".............. if its strong enough the current will go pretty far, in TT what exactly was the use of ppcs?? where they used as some sort of close range super weapon(er ppcs at least) or what???

ive been playing the trial 8q recently (idk why) and im just feeling that its ppcs, and ppcs in general, are a bit lacking, of course i understand the devs don't want them to be the go to weapon for every build with energy hard points either

[Just wanna play]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 29 April 2013 - 03:36 PM, said:

In TT and lore 2 pp s we a pretty big deal, 3 basically unheard of. 4 on clan warhawk(masakari) was like incredible
Yet now its commonplace . out after the battle.

in lore where the ppcs less common place and feared because of heat AND damage???? because they certainly aren't to be feared these days for their damage that much