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Petition For Stock Mech Game Option


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Poll: Do you want a stock Mech game option? (576 member(s) have cast votes)

Do you want a stock Mech game option?

  1. Yes! (99 votes [17.19%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.19%

  2. HELL Yes! (477 votes [82.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 82.81%

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#241 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 12:27 AM

View PostKoniving, on 12 May 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

You'd be quite wrong actually; most of the DHS mechs are flaming death traps.


Not really? Here's a list of every stock mech currently in-game equipped with DHS:

TBT-7M
KTO-20
GRF-3M
SDH-5M
WVR-7K
QKD-5K
TDR-9S
TDR-9SE
ON1-M
AWS-9M
BLR-3M
STK-5M

Far from optimal builds, but most of these are a heck of a lot better than the SHS variants. The only real stinker here is the AWS-9M, but even then it's not that bad compared to the other Awesomes.

EDIT: Forgot the Phoenix mediums for some reason:

EDIT 2: Dammit Kintaro!

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 15 May 2014 - 01:54 AM.


#242 Koniving

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 08:11 AM

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 13 May 2014 - 12:27 AM, said:

Not really? Here's a list of every stock mech currently in-game equipped with DHS:

TBT-7M
QKD-5K
TDR-9S
TDR-9SE
ON1-M
AWS-9M
BLR-3M
STK-5M

Far from optimal builds, but most of these are a heck of a lot better than the SHS variants. The only real stinker here is the AWS-9M, but even then it's not that bad compared to the other Awesomes.

Edit for fairness:
Note that all of the following statements are assuming ZERO mech skill tree unlocks:
Once you add PGI's skill system, they become incredibly overpowered compared to the others (which is why I'd like it if all stock mechs became available as 'trials' - trial mechs NEVER have pilot skills tied to them, cannot be modified, etc.).
AWS-9M, BLR-3M, STK-5M are heat death-traps.
Battlemaster overheats with just the MG, ER PPC and SRM-6 in 37 seconds. Faster if you use the exclusively the MLs.
Stalker has to alternate between its weapons and chain fire its ML to avoid overheating within 30 seconds, that's taking the LRMs out of the equation and using the rest about 50% of their firing rates.
The Awesome 9M is actually incredibly heat efficient (and more terrifying than a Victor), but compared to an Awesome 8Q it's a piece of manure when it comes to heat efficiency.
9S is if you use the flamers (1 flamer + 27 DHS = overheat).
Quickdraw overheats in 30 to 45 seconds of combat, without any SRM usage and chain firing the MLs.
The 7M, with just the 3 ML, will overheat in 50 seconds.

Don't think they're easy buttons just because they have double heatsinks. Many of the standard heatsink mechs have superior heat efficiency. You're also missing a few mechs. SHK-5M, Wolverine 7K, Griffin 3M just to name 3 that you are missing.

The irony here, is that every one of those has a larger than 250 engine, which means you're getting 10 true doubles.

Which are basically quad heatsinks when you factor in both threshold and cooling rate are doubled; don't worry MWO's SHS are basically tabletop doubles, when you add that they both cool and raise the threshold at the same rate; where tabletop's threshold never raises.

With 40 SHS in TT, you can squeeze off 6 PPCs, one at a time or 2 then 1 across 8 seconds, and just barely avoid shutting down.
But if you did the same thing with 0 seconds of cooling (aka firing all 3 at once, you shut down), Because 30 heat and 30 threshold = 100% heat = shutdown.

In MWO you could do that with 20 SHS, 3 at a time without ghost heat. Since the threshold for 20 SHS in MWO is 50 without any skill unlocks, even if you fire all 3 at once without ghost heat with no cooling, you just reach 60% heat = twiddle your thumbs and snicker. Take 20 SHS and add in pilot skills on the elite level, and you have 60 threshold, so with 0 cooling at all you can do it twice.
Even with ghost heat, with 20 SHS you'd get 85.2% heat firing 3 at once. With 20 SHS + elite skills you'd have 71% heat. That's with NO cooling applied at all.

With 40 SHS in MWO, you can squeeze off 9 PPCs, 3 at a time WITH ghost heat) This of course with cooling, specifically 8 seconds of cooling, you'd reach shutdown in 8 seconds. But remember, tabletop could only do it by firing 2, then 1, then 2, then 1 and could only squeeze off 6 without ghost heat.

So 40 SHS, tabletop 6 firing 2 then 1 then 2 then 1 in 10 total seconds to barely escape shutting down (firing one of those PPCs just a second sooner than being paced will shut it down).
40 SHS in MWO with ghost heat, 9 fired 3 at a time in 8 total seconds to shutdown.
40 SHS in MWO without ghost heat, 12 fired 3 at a time in 8 total seconds to shutdown.

So don't count SHS out, it's a LOT better here than it ever was in tabletop.
Then again the 1.4 DHS would be superior here than tabletop as well.

Calculations below are made with 20 DHS, TT (which is 40 SHS) and MWO (which is pretty close to 70 SHS when you combine threshold and cooling increases).
Spoiler


Added something else. I wanted to see just how superior the heat system was compared to tabletop. And wanted to demonstrate that DHS under certain conditions actually hurt your efficiency compared to SHS. This is exclusively meant to be used as 'proof' of the statement that MWO's SHS are tabletop's DHS when you combine the two things they do here to the one thing they do in tabletop.
Spoiler

Edited by Koniving, 13 May 2014 - 09:53 AM.


#243 Redshift2k5

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 08:33 AM

I don't know if stock play could ever be a mode- stock champs and stock heroes certinly don't fit in, not to mention it is unclear if the demand for stock play is actually high enough to warrant a mode and the systems required to support such a mode.

The tools they have already providd us, to run our own private matches with any restrictions we're willing to agree to, is already a big leap forward. I played SMM May 12, it was great, but is that group a big enough segment to warrant new systems, when so many other game systems(that affect all players, not a small subset) are in dire need of installation or repair? I just don't see the priority for it ever being high enough.

I would approach the issue from a different direction, and ask that they review match earnings for private matches, since if a player were to predominantly play private matches for stock, tech era, roleplay, or tournament play, then the lack of c-bills income could be crippling.

#244 Aegic

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 08:56 AM

Signed.

#245 xeromynd

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 11:43 AM

Stock mechs? But how will anyone win without artillery & airstrikes?????????????








;)

#246 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:04 AM

View PostKoniving, on 13 May 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

AWS-9M, BLR-3M, STK-5M are heat death-traps.
Battlemaster overheats with just the MG, ER PPC and SRM-6 in 37 seconds. Faster if you use the exclusively the MLs.
Stalker has to alternate between its weapons and chain fire its ML to avoid overheating within 30 seconds, that's taking the LRMs out of the equation and using the rest about 50% of their firing rates.
The Awesome 9M is actually incredibly heat efficient (and more terrifying than a Victor), but compared to an Awesome 8Q it's a piece of manure when it comes to heat efficiency.
9S is if you use the flamers (1 flamer + 27 DHS = overheat).
Quickdraw overheats in 30 to 45 seconds of combat, without any SRM usage and chain firing the MLs.
The 7M, with just the 3 ML, will overheat in 50 seconds.


What are you trying to prove with your overheat times? Almost every mech in the game is going to overheat if it fires more than a handful of its weapons continuously, and the few ballistic-focused exceptions are going to be severely hampered by a lack of ammunition. At least when these DHS builds run out of ammo, they still have plenty of energy weapons left and DHS to use them.

Hell, look at the STK-5M. Yes, it needs to manage its weapon groups to fire at different ranges, but the SHS Stalkers are even more limited by their heat buildup.

As for the 9M, while it is certainly the inferior PPC-thrower, it at least has some close range protection in the form of streaks and lasers, while the 8Q is pretty much defenseless with just its smalls, so it's not exactly a

You can also pretty much ignore the flamers on the TDR-9S, as no one with half a brain will use it for anything beyond a temporary cockpit blinding or last ditch-desparation move when all of its other weapons are knocked out.

View PostKoniving, on 13 May 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Don't think they're easy buttons just because they have double heatsinks. Many of the standard heatsink mechs have superior heat efficiency. You're also missing a few mechs. SHK-5M, Wolverine 7K, Griffin 3M just to name 3 that you are missing.


Whoops, completley overlooked the Saber mediums somehow. Name your SHS variants that have better efficiency than these DHS variants. I bet I can poke a few holes into their supposed superiority.

#247 Koniving

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 04:42 AM

View PostKaeb Odellas, on 14 May 2014 - 12:04 AM, said:

What are you trying to prove with your overheat times? Almost every mech in the game is going to overheat if it fires more than a handful of its weapons continuously, and the few ballistic-focused exceptions are going to be severely hampered by a lack of ammunition. At least when these DHS builds run out of ammo, they still have plenty of energy weapons left and DHS to use them.

Hell, look at the STK-5M. Yes, it needs to manage its weapon groups to fire at different ranges, but the SHS Stalkers are even more limited by their heat buildup.

As for the 9M, while it is certainly the inferior PPC-thrower, it at least has some close range protection in the form of streaks and lasers, while the 8Q is pretty much defenseless with just its smalls.

Whoops, completley overlooked the Saber mediums somehow. Name your SHS variants that have better efficiency than these DHS variants. I bet I can poke a few holes into their supposed superiority.


My point is that unlike the common thought that "oh I have double heatsinks I can fire all my weapons over and over *prances into candy land*" isn't going to work here. Bishop seems absolutely convinced that DHS mechs would ruin the stock mode. Yet he doesn't seem aware of how easy it is to fry the heatsinks on a DHS mech versus an SHS mech. The rest was to put forth the point that contrary to popular belief, nothing about MWO's heat system equals out to tabletop.

On to what matters here:

You'd be surprised what small lasers can do. We've seen that proven during stock mech monday; the solid black Awesome 8Q nearly trumped the entire field and many players there have stated that the Awesome is "truly terrifying stock." (One thing the Awesomes have over Victors at Stock is 100 or more points of armor; this is partly the reason for their size but the game doesn't make Victors bigger for putting on the same amount of armor; I honestly do not believe in the armor equality rule and think it's a bunch of bullocks).

Awesome 8Q. Even better is the Awesome 8V; from personal experience it's nearly impossible to run this thing up to 50% at pure stock with no unlocks, provided you set weapon usage to specific ranges.
Stalkers 3H and 4N. 3H is surprisingly more heat efficient in the long run.
Battlemaster 1-D.
Orions can't top the M. And I just noticed the weirdest thing. Why in the heck would there be an 8 (Eight) tube launcher?

In proper tabletop and lore, the Jagers would have the best heat efficiency of all mechs, but they'd have almost no pinpoint damage
Spoiler


Wolverine 6R.
Shadowhawk K, but admittedly one PPC isn't that scary. That is VERY high armor considering it's a Shadowhawk.

Kintaro 20 is also a DHS mech.

Trebuchet 7K can trump the 3C.

Can't trump the Quickdraw.

Griffin can't be trumped.

Now, of those mechs, the only truly scary one is in fact the Awesome, which is a heavily armored seige mech. And the worst of the bunch is the Shadowhawk, which is a forward recon, artillery spotter, and SCOUT mech for heavy lances. As it should be.

#248 General Taskeen

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:47 AM

Let's be calm and play Stock Mechs!

Yes there are issues with the weapons and heatsinks, but at least its something different and it feels more like BattleTech canon.

Most 'Mechs with their "loreish" configs are built with just enough SHS/DHS to handle a specific kind of loadout. As an Example, WVR-6R and GRF-3M are pretty close in heat efficiency.
In some cases, some stocks were built poorly on purpose for 'lore' reasoning like manufactured equipment that designers had poor oversight on (RFL-3N), but pilots overcame its inefficiencies.

Like in the real world where some Car is manufactured and ends up with issues, but has excellent handling, although has poor engine problems, and the next "model" designers look into those issues and make the next "model" a little better.

Edited by General Taskeen, 14 May 2014 - 10:06 AM.


#249 Zaggeron

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 09:49 AM

Instead of a stock mech queue or game mode how about an in-lobby voting option for a stock only match. If a large majority vote for it, then each player's mech is temporarily converted to its stock form with no efficiencies -- basically it is temporally returned to the exact state it was when you purchased it.

This solves the problem of the expense of converting back and forth between custom and stock loadouts and also removes the need for an additional queue or game mode.

#250 Kaeb Odellas

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 04:19 AM

View PostKoniving, on 14 May 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

Awesome 8Q. Even better is the Awesome 8V; from personal experience it's nearly impossible to run this thing up to 50% at pure stock with no unlocks, provided you set weapon usage to specific ranges.

Stalkers 3H and 4N. 3H is surprisingly more heat efficient in the long run.

Battlemaster 1-D.

Wolverine 6R.

Shadowhawk K, but admittedly one PPC isn't that scary. That is VERY high armor considering it's a Shadowhawk.

Kintaro 20 is also a DHS mech.

Trebuchet 7K can trump the 3C.

Now, of those mechs, the only truly scary one is in fact the Awesome, which is a heavily armored seige mech. And the worst of the bunch is the Shadowhawk, which is a forward recon, artillery spotter, and SCOUT mech for heavy lances. As it should be.


-I'll grant you the SHS Awesomes are probably fine since they're so packed with heatsinks. The 9M wins out against the 8Q at very long range, as 2 ERPPCs will start to exceed 3 PPCs in damage past 720m, and wins out sub 200m due to its superior close-range weapons, between those ranges the 8Q reigns supreme. I had also not considered that LRMs would be even more powerful stock, as mechs move a lot slower and AMS and ECM would be uncommon.

-The STK-5M is more efficient than both the 3H and 4N at close range, though the 4N has a bigger close-range alpha. I'll also concede that the 3H has better long range efficiency than the 5M. The 5M does have better armor overall, though the difference is minor. Overall a wash.

-The Battlemaster 1D only has comparable heat efficiency numbers because it's got fewer weapons to generate heat. The 3M has much higher heat capacity and dissipation, matches the 1D blow for blow for sustainable damage, but has much higher burst capacity for the 1D. The only thing the 1D has is slightly better limb armor (not a huge deal) and a more heat-efficient long range option, though both mechs are effectively heat neutral firing just their PPCs.

-The JM6-S and JM6-DD are only sustainable if you fire just the AC5/UAC5s. The AC2s will heat them up in a hurry. They've also got paper-thin armor and will go down in a hurry.

-The WVR-7K outperforms the 6R in pretty much every metric. I don't know why you even mentioned it.

-The SDH-5M has better armor than the K, and better punch, though it's got serious ammo issues. The K is also defenseless at close range. A heavy scout might make sense in the tabletop game, but it's completely nonsensical in MWO.

-Missed the KTO-20. It's definitely the best of the bunch.

-The TBT-7M is better. Full stop. They're going for different angles as long range support mediums, but the 7M puts out far better damage for far longer than the 7K can. The 7M can also jump for potential poptart NARC + LRM shenanigans.

#251 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 08:45 AM

I would like to suggested that players receive an options to play a PGI provided stock mech with no C-Bill reward (like the old trial mechs), or provide their own purchased mech that is verified stock by the matchmaker and receive C-Bill rewards.

With options for Tier1, Teir2, with checkboxes for DHS, ECM, Modules, Cosnumable Modules, etc.

#252 Name140704

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:27 AM

This. SO much this.

#253 Voivode

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 11:02 AM

A respawn based game mode, traditional team death match (i.e. first team to N kills wins), every time you die, you respawn in a random stock mech.

I'd play the crap out of that game mode!

#254 InRev

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:10 PM

I would buy the Uller and the Adder a-la-care if there were a stock queue.

I am not joking.

Their deficiencies wouldn't matter in stock, but in the live server they're largely DoA, so not interested.

HOWEVER, I would play the crap out of them in Stock.

Think about it PGI!!!

#255 Ningyo

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 01:36 PM

I am for a stock mode and while many suggestions would be more fun you have to remember this is a F2P game that makes its money off micro-transactions. This means they need a form of revenue from stock mode, if you allow most hero/champion mechs it becomes a pay to win mode, but excluding these cuts off most forms of them making money.

There is the very true argument that methods that require you to own a mech in stock configuration would make for people buying a LOT more mechbays I bet many would buy 35-100% more than they presently have. Mechbays aren't enough to offset the loss in people buying Hero/Champion mechs though probably.

My best suggestion would be to find other variants the Hero mechs would automatically drop as in Stock. They are using only a few of the variants that exist, and while I am not going to go through and find the perfect ones for balance purposes, they likely could find good ones. This would make people still be wanting the hero mechs. Alternatively they could add new stock variants that are buy only.

I am all for a Stock Mode but for one to happen someone needs to give them a good way to make money off it too, they are a business.

_________________________________

On heat threshold in MWO versus tabletop
Spoiler


#256 DAEDALOS513

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 09:47 AM

View PostNRP, on 28 April 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Why should I take the thread seriously when the only poll options are "Yes"?

I can't imagine why anyone would want to roll in a stock mech. As the Trial Mechs show, they are absolute garbage. Customizing mechs to suit individual preferences is the great thing about MWO. Without it, MWO loses a lot of its appeal, at least for me.

Trial mechs are NOT garbage when both teams are forced to use them. Do you not see the point of this thread? This is where true SKILL will shine. It would also add much needed variety to this kinda-gettin-monotonous game.

View PostNingyo, on 15 May 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

I am for a stock mode and while many suggestions would be more fun you have to remember this is a F2P game that makes its money off micro-transactions. This means they need a form of revenue from stock mode, if you allow most hero/champion mechs it becomes a pay to win mode, but excluding these cuts off most forms of them making money.

There is the very true argument that methods that require you to own a mech in stock configuration would make for people buying a LOT more mechbays I bet many would buy 35-100% more than they presently have. Mechbays aren't enough to offset the loss in people buying Hero/Champion mechs though probably.

My best suggestion would be to find other variants the Hero mechs would automatically drop as in Stock. They are using only a few of the variants that exist, and while I am not going to go through and find the perfect ones for balance purposes, they likely could find good ones. This would make people still be wanting the hero mechs. Alternatively they could add new stock variants that are buy only.

I am all for a Stock Mode but for one to happen someone needs to give them a good way to make money off it too, they are a business.

_________________________________

On heat threshold in MWO versus tabletop
Spoiler


What are u sayin? You would still be able to paint, add camo and put bobbles in the cockpit, etc. (all real money grabs) as these would not change the abilities of the stock mech. I like your idea of adding the option to BUY for MC/Cbills the stock mech if you want to run in that mode.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 16 May 2014 - 09:49 AM.


#257 Dirty Starfish

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 01:02 PM

Absolutely yes. Anything to bring us back to the mid CB gameplay.

#258 General Taskeen

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 03:22 PM

PGI, please be advised

MechWarrior games have had Stock Modes in the past, namely MechWarrior 3 and MechWarrior 4 and it was awesome.

Therefore this game needs it too. Please.

#259 Malleus011

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:47 AM

View PostNingyo, on 15 May 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

I am for a stock mode and while many suggestions would be more fun you have to remember this is a F2P game that makes its money off micro-transactions. This means they need a form of revenue from stock mode, if you allow most hero/champion mechs it becomes a pay to win mode, but excluding these cuts off most forms of them making money.

There is the very true argument that methods that require you to own a mech in stock configuration would make for people buying a LOT more mechbays I bet many would buy 35-100% more than they presently have. Mechbays aren't enough to offset the loss in people buying Hero/Champion mechs though probably.

My best suggestion would be to find other variants the Hero mechs would automatically drop as in Stock. They are using only a few of the variants that exist, and while I am not going to go through and find the perfect ones for balance purposes, they likely could find good ones. This would make people still be wanting the hero mechs. Alternatively they could add new stock variants that are buy only.

I am all for a Stock Mode but for one to happen someone needs to give them a good way to make money off it too, they are a business.
*snip*


I made the modest suggested a few days ago to for PGI to monetize Stock Mode by selling non-modifiable Stock-only chassis for low(or flat) MC amounts. These 'mechs would come pre-painted with custom art (like Davion Heavy Guards or Death Commandoes) encouraging the collection of a variety of inexpensive Stock Mechs - and giving PGI some actual micro-transaction options. They *can* monetize it without affecting their main game.

#260 General Taskeen

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 08:04 AM

Indeed they could even sell missing custom stock variants as well, including a missing Catapult, 2 Dragons, an Atlas, and a Stalker. They could also restock a 'Mech automatically with game code. For instance, if someone wants to use a Boar's Head in Stock Mode, they could make it so the game converts it automatically to Danielle's Atlas.

I'm hoping that IF some stock game is added that they include some check boxes for Eras (3025, 3050, or "All", etc.)

Edited by General Taskeen, 28 May 2014 - 08:05 AM.






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