267 replies to this topic

[jeffsw6]

Pater Mors, on 19 May 2013 - 02:05 AM, said:

For one, your complaint was not that, it was a rant.

There have been literally hundreds of threads, containing thousands of posts, which qualify easily as "suggestions," "complaints," "observations," and indeed, "rants."

What's pathetic is that the collective PGI staff have participated in none of these, yet try to defend their foolish plan in this "rant," or "quick critical analysis of the flawed anti-boating heat-scale system's effects on common mechs," by claiming that their plan is not set in stone.

We all know that PGI always digs their heels in, and almost everything is set in stone, until there is huge player outrage; and even then, they would rather break the game further than admit errors /P LRMs, ECM, Really O/P LRMs, really big LRM nerf, Gauss/PPC meta, upcoming BAP, etc. Every one of these huge game-balance errors could have been immediately and easily corrected with very simple modifications to weapon/equipment parameters.

Further, my post is not based on one sentence. It's based on their history of failure, history of claiming things are temporary or tentative when in fact they are basically long-term or permanent, and the total absence of any alternative plan, or even expressed or implied interest in any alternative.

Finally, it's common knowledge that they are bleeding players at a remarkable pace. If you can't infer that from the clear and plain evidence that is right in front of all of us, I'm sorry that you lack the capacity for drawing reasonable conclusions based on available information. You can call that estimation, guessing, or anything you like; but all evidence indicates that the player-base continues to shrink even though new content is being introduced.

When all signs point to bad, chances are, things are bad.

[Pater Mors]

jeffsw6, on 19 May 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

You can call that estimation, guessing, or anything you like; but all evidence indicates that the player-base continues to shrink even though new content is being introduced.

Since you addressed literally one line of my post I'll extend you the same courtesy.

You can also call it jumping to conclusions, which is what it is.

"Jumping to conclusions (officially the jumping to conclusions bias), often abbreviated as JTC, and also referred to as the inference-observation confusion[1]) is a psychological term referring to a communication obstacle where one "judge[s] or decide[s] something without having all the facts; to reach unwarranted conclusions".[2][3] In other words, "when we fail to distinguish between what we observed first hand and we have only inferred or assumed".^[1]"

Which is the same thing you're doing with this thread. When you use the conclusions you've jumped to to launch attacks it undermines any credibility your arguments have even if your claims are valid.

Edited by Pater Mors, 19 May 2013 - 02:57 AM.

[jeffsw6]

Pater Mors, on 19 May 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

Which is the same thing you're doing with this thread. When you use the conclusions you've jumped to to launch attacks it undermines any credibility your arguments have even if your claims are valid.

Stating a thing as fact doesn't make it true.

For example, if you say the sky is red, and I already believe it's blue, it doesn't become less-blue if I look up to check for evidence of blue and then explain to others how I've determined its color.

[Pater Mors]

jeffsw6, on 19 May 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

Stating a thing as fact doesn't make it true.

Hilariously ironic you chose that statement to respond to me with.

[MonkeyCheese]

Simple fix is simple, put the ppc heat back to where it was months ago, aka only crazy people boated them with more than 2 guns

[Pinselborste]

MonkeyCheese, on 19 May 2013 - 03:32 AM, said:

Simple fix is simple, put the ppc heat back to where it was months ago, aka only crazy people boated them with more than 2 guns

and than the awesome will be unplayable again.

they just have to decrease the heatcap to 35 or something like that and greatly increase hit dissipation by heatsinks, that way 6 ppc stalker wont work anymore and the awesome will be able to do what it is supposed to do.

[Hemuli84]

To be honest I kinda like this change they're thinking about. All it should do is make people chain fire instead of alpha striking. You can still have your boats, you just need to not fire everything all at once.

[Kiiyor]

jeffsw6, on 19 May 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

There have been literally hundreds of threads, containing thousands of posts, which qualify easily as "suggestions," "complaints," "observations," and indeed, "rants."

What's pathetic is that the collective PGI staff have participated in none of these

Bollocks. Prove it.

jeffsw6, on 19 May 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

We all know that PGI always digs their heels in, and almost everything is set in stone

Prove it!

jeffsw6, on 19 May 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

Every one of these huge game-balance errors could have been immediately and easily corrected with very simple modifications to weapon/equipment parameters.

lol, nope. Read the post about hud issues. Read any of the posts about weapon changes. Changing missile damage by .2 caused a riot at one stage.

jeffsw6, on 19 May 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

Finally, it's common knowledge that they are bleeding players at a remarkable pace.

PROVE IT!

Your irrefutable proof always seems to look like assumptions.

Edited by Kiiyor, 19 May 2013 - 06:21 AM.

[JimSuperBleeder]

Buff machine guns

[KuruptU4Fun]

jeffsw6, on 18 May 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

Your modification isn't just a PPC heat change. As you have described it, your change would affect every weapon that is commonly used in multiples.

While I understand the benefits of Alphas, in order to get people to think about their builds and the metagame with them I think this is at least worth a try. When R&R was around, you saw a lot more balanced builds, a lot of every class of mech and longer battles. On the flip side you also saw a lot of games ending in caps with little to no fights. So understand I am looking at both sides over a LONG time.

But look at it like this, would server farms need as much cooling as they do if the servers themselves were used in shifts? Would arena bathrooms smell better if people were only allowed to go by sections? Would rush hour traffic be as bad if employers staggered shifts better?

I am not saying that this is a good solution, but it does warrant investigation up until small scale implementation. Let them develop it, let us test it, then they can tweak it. If it's crap or if it is broken over the long term then they know it's not a good thing to have in game.

Don't just dismiss it outright, kinda like a father dislikes his daughters boyfriend because he looks like Fabio...

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 19 May 2013 - 07:30 AM.

[Sybreed]

miSs, on 19 May 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

I prefer when you guys fight on the Battefields


Anytime! (even at the middle of the night)



Now, carry on...

ahah, did you get a call from IGP while you were sleeping "MISS, WE NEED YOU TO MODERATE THIS THREAD ASAP, IT'S BEEN OVERRUN BY TROLLS!"

Or, was it a "miSs" spotlight in the sky à la Batman?

[Orzorn]

I think this system will cause more problems than it solves. As the OP said, 6 Mlas Jenners, Hunchback 4Ps, etc are all not-overpowered mechs. This change will punish those builds.

I think adding in a system to punish people with high heat might be a better idea. Mechs like the 4 PPC Stalker build heat very quickly. If their mech slowed down, had worse torso twist, etc because of that, then they'd have to be more careful with their heat. More balanced out builds would not suffer as much.

Also, a penalty for overheating for a certain period of time (say, 5 seconds) even if you didn't override, might be another way to punish very high alpha, high heat builds.

However, its always important to remember that these problem mechs are usually jump snipers, meaning that many suggestions might be lost on them, as they can just hide behind their hill. Then again, if the change forces them to stop firing for a while, then isn't that at least somewhat successful?

Edited by Orzorn, 19 May 2013 - 07:33 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Orzorn, on 19 May 2013 - 07:27 AM, said:

I think this system will cause more problems than it solves. As the OP said, 6 Mlas Jenners, Hunchback 4Ps, etc are all not-overpowered mechs. This change will punish those builds.

I think adding in a system to punish people with high heat might be a better idea. Mechs like the 4 PPC Stalker build heat very quickly. If their mech slowed down, had worse torso twist, etc because of that, then they'd have to be more careful with their heat. More balanced out builds would not suffer as much.

Also, a penalty for overheating for a certain period of time (say, 5 seconds) even if you didn't override, might be another way to punish very high alpha, high heat builds.

However, its always important to remember that these problem mechs are usually jump snipers, meaning that many suggestions might be lost on them, as they can just hide behind their hill. Then again, if the change forces them to stop firing for a while, then isn't that at least somewhat successful?

I think there is a lot of over-reaction around here. PGI is well aware that 4 PPC boats and dual AC/20 boats are the problem, not 4 Small laser boats.

Everyone needs to take a chill pill and be patient for now.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 19 May 2013 - 07:51 AM.

[Fate 6]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 19 May 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

I think there is a lot of over-reaction around here. PGI is well aware that 4 PPC boats and dual AC/20 boats are the problem, not 4 Small laser boats.

Everyone needs to take a chill pill and be patient for now.

The only problem I see here is that I don't think PGI actually does realize what is overpowered and what isn't. Call this a hunch, but if they think ECM is balanced I'm not so sure if they know what else is "balanced".

[Fate 6]

Paul Inouye, on 18 May 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Um... who said ANYTHING about a gauge to watch? Are you confusing heat scale (which is a heat penalty that increases over time or some other factor) with an actual HUD element?



So you want heat modifications to help fix PPC's? This is what a heat scale is. It's also unique to weapons. Some weapons will hardly see a problem... some others will see larger penalties.


And one other thing you haven't noted in my original post:

"Forgot about the level of assumptions that would be made about the PPC change.

Let me clarify, this is not a change to "nerf" boating/high alpha builds/"poptarting". It's a change to put the refire rate of the PPC back in line with the rest of the large energy weapons."

Ok, ok, I have to bring this Paul quote back just to make a point.

1st he defends himself against something that is clearly not even directed towards him. If he had read the thread he would understand that, so he clearly didn't fully read the thread.

2nd he defends himself by posting part of his quote that isn't even relevant to the OP. Nobody in the first several posts was disagreeing with the increased refire rate of PPCs. He simply quoted himself just for the sake of quoting himself.


Sorry Paul, you further prove our point of being ignorant when you come in a thread and post things like this. We need real responses, not just cookie cutter copy pasting from a quote that doesn't even make sense in this context. And the quote about it not being set in stone (whether it really is set in stone or not is yet to be seen) still doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it at all. We are discussing to give feedback on something we have discussed before and saw an issue in already.

EDIT: And if we are seeing heat scaling differently for different weapons, we definitely will need to know the numbers and have them available in the mech lab - something I suspect you didn't really plan on doing. Additionally, this does not effectively fix the Gauss+2PPC build common on things like the 3D and RS. Furthermore, it hurts things like the Awesome even more. Everyone agrees there is nothing OP about the Awesome (the chassis itself has huge hitboxes and average armor, and is relatively easy to kill), and by trying to hurt PPC boating on mechs that shouldn't boat it, you will hurt the mech that SHOULD boat it as well. This is why we have been suggesting hardpoint sizes - we can still have customization but we can try to keep the chassis true to their roots. Instead of balancing the game completely by weapons, balance the chassis. The Stalker has been something of an issue since it came out because of the chassis (and available hardpoints), the Catapult has seen its share of issues, and then there are chassis like the Awesome and Dragon which are weak because of their hitboxes.

Edited by Fate 6, 19 May 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[Accursed Richards]

[color=#CCCCCC][size= said:

Colonel Pada Vinson[/size][/color]' timestamp='1368979690' post='2362332']

I think there is a lot of over-reaction around here. PGI is well aware that 4 PPC boats and dual AC/20 boats are the problem, not 4 Small laser boats.

Citation that they're aware of this? Bear in mind machine guns and ECM.

Edited by Accursed Richards, 20 May 2013 - 12:28 AM.

[Orzorn]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 19 May 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

I think there is a lot of over-reaction around here. PGI is well aware that 4 PPC boats and dual AC/20 boats are the problem, not 4 Small laser boats.

And yet the proposed system would still be a detriment to 4 small laser boats.

PGI may be aware of the issue, but the proposed system does not go parallel with that awareness. One can be mindful of the issues and still come up with a flawed solution. Keep that in mind.

People need to stop taking criticism of the system as a direct attack of PGI. I'm glad they're trying to come up with solutions, and I'm willing to see where this idea takes us (especially with test servers coming up soon), but it seems to me that the very idea (firing multiples of the same weapon causes more heat) is a flawed solution. Sure, it might fix boating of those weapons that are the problem, but it would also punish boating of weapons which are not a problem.

I personally don't think killing boating is much of a solution anyways. The game should encourage more mixed builds, not punish boats. Because, with the way the game is right now, mixed builds just aren't that great. However, that is definitely a result of the lack of weapon balance. Balance missiles and some of the ballistics, as well as probably hit PPCs and jump jets with a nerf, and it might be more worthwhile to mix it up.

What I'm saying is that buffs might be the solution here (with those PPC and jump jet nerfs mixed in, which I believe PGI is doing on the 21st), rather than nerfs (which is what the proposed system would do).

[Fate 6]

Accursed Richards, on 19 May 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

Citation that they're aware of this? Bear in mind machine guns and ECM.

Not sure why you're quoting me on this, as I didn't say it. Could be a bug though.

EDIT: Nope it's not a bug. Please fix your quote.

Edited by Fate 6, 19 May 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[TheFlyingScotsman]

Peekaboo I C JU, on 18 May 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

FlyingScottsmen...aren't you 1 of the dudes responsible for destroying STO with all the whining and "suggestions"....pls go back there...they still have a player base so your job is not complete yet...you have turned Star trek online into a 45 minute snorefest , when it use to be fun.....i mean the idea of flying a starship is awesome...but the idea of a 45 minutes healboat snorefest is BORING

I have never played STO in my life. :3

In regards to the actual post, the imbalance is primarily in issue for smaller classes of mechs, who currently receive the blunt end of this imbalance, whereas "normal and balanced" builds which follow canon and the strategic value of not overheating with every second shot are actually a fair fight to play against for all parties involved.

Edited by TheFlyingScotsman, 19 May 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[Chavette]

They will be nerfing JJ, it seems like side by side to the "alpha cure" they want to come up with.... if you ask me, they should atleast wait to see how one pans out before touching the other... and the second touch should be the one including RNG (the JJs).

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