391 replies to this topic

[Thomas Covenant]

Dmitri Valenov, on 03 June 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

I support MC only non Pay to Win mechs.

As would I.

[RG Notch]

You should be supporting HATS ! HATS are never P2W!

[Thomas Covenant]

Shalune, on 03 June 2013 - 03:00 PM, said:

I see the "pay" in your argument but not the "win."

You seem to like metaphors, so here's one. 2 kids attend class to take a math test. They both bring #2 pencils, the teacher is selling pens for $1*. One student buys one, and the other sticks to his pencil though he is moderately more comfortable using a pen. Who got the higher score on the math test?

Unless you are trying to argue that a minute amount of comfort in a task is going to have such a large effect as to noticeably shift the outcome regardless of skill in the task itself, then this is what the pay to win argument equates to.

*as a way to let kids take it if they forget a writing utensil while teaching them to be more mindful. Aw, yeah. Back story.

Yes, actually. Good analogy. I think in most cases it will be just as trivial. I think sometimes it won't be.
Think of how diversely you may perform depending on the weapon loadout of your 'mech.
Or which variant of a chassis you use.

I think the analogy could extend to which pen has hints to history questions written on the side, or math. All will help you with the same number of question, but you may only need help on a certain category.

The point is you do use the mech to pass the mission, which is a dynamic test with lots variables and variance and what you bring to bear can greatly affect your ability to contribute and how you may even do it.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 05 June 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[JodoKaden]

Thomas Covenant, on 30 May 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

Post #117: The "is there a problem" crowd, and the "how big of a problem" crowd Post #124: Solutions original post:

---

If I give you a sword, a bow, and spear which you have never used either of, and I tell you to train with them... If you say you are best with the spear... If we go back to when you had never used them, would you still be best with the spear? No, you have never used any of them. Another question, would you still be best with the spear, if you tried them again? If yes, then I believe hero mechs are pay to win. Two gladiators enter an arena. They are presented with weapons. These weapons have been used by gladiators over and over, all have been used to win with roughly the same amount. The weapons are said to be balanced. One gladiator is funded by a wealthy master, he gets a few more weapons. No weapon that has won more on average than any of the others. The less fortunate gladiator has a smaller selection to choose from. The gladiator notices that one of the weapons the other has that he doesn't, is one hes trained his whole life with. One he knows like the back of his hand. A player loads up mech warrior, he is going to buy a mech. He looks through the list. He sees a hero mech, it has a unique loadout. Unfortunately he is unable to pay the $20 for it. No matter as all the mechs are balanced, so he is at no disadvantage. But if he had played it, he would realize it is the mech he is best at. Is it pay to win?

Heh I love this. But I must say I consider it to be not pay to win. Inevitably, for some people the Hero mechs will be better than all the other mechs. (You can easily contest that statement). No matter what PGI does that is likely to be the case, unless they make hero mechs worthless. People who fund this game deserve some advantage. I am fine with letting them have it.

[Thomas Covenant]

JodoKaden, on 05 June 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

People who fund this game deserve some advantage. I am fine with letting them have it.

You have nothing to worry about.

[Gelion]

Thomas Covenant, on 05 June 2013 - 04:43 PM, said:

You have nothing to worry about.

I think we've stated that the advantage is a person's potential, so over 90% of the playerbase are not actually effected by your pay2win scenario. Have you had a look at the new angle I thought of, because that further dilutes your argument I believe. However, in conclusion I would be fully supportive of the ability for people to play enough to be able to get the Hero mechs, even if it would mean sacrificing paint and cbill bonus.

[Liberator]

Thomas Covenant, on 30 May 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

Post #117: The "is there a problem" crowd, and the "how big of a problem" crowd
Post #124: Solutions

original post:

---

If I give you a sword, a bow, and spear which you have never used either of, and I tell you to train with them...

If you say you are best with the spear...

If we go back to when you had never used them, would you still be best with the spear?

No, you have never used any of them.

Another question, would you still be best with the spear, if you tried them again?

If yes, then I believe hero mechs are pay to win.



Two gladiators enter an arena. They are presented with weapons. These weapons have been used by gladiators over and over, all have been used to win with roughly the same amount. The weapons are said to be balanced.

One gladiator is funded by a wealthy master, he gets a few more weapons. No weapon that has won more on average than any of the others.

The less fortunate gladiator has a smaller selection to choose from. The gladiator notices that one of the weapons the other has that he doesn't, is one hes trained his whole life with. One he knows like the back of his hand.

A player loads up mech warrior, he is going to buy a mech. He looks through the list. He sees a hero mech, it has a unique loadout. Unfortunately he is unable to pay the $20 for it. No matter as all the mechs are balanced, so he is at no disadvantage.

But if he had played it, he would realize it is the mech he is best at.

Is it pay to win?

It is not pay to win, mwo is as far from pay to win as it gets.

What is this obsession about pay to win?

[Volthorne]

Liberator, on 05 June 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

It is not pay to win, mwo is as far from pay to win as it gets.

What is this obsession about pay to win?

I have no idea.

Thomas, time to shut down this thread once and for all: if I buy a Hero Mech and it comes with - and here's the important part, so pay attention - 5 extra weightless, crit-less heatsinks then it is P2W. If it confers some active advantage over a free 'Mech by physically being better in combat, it is P2W. If it does not provide the aforementioned advantage, it is not P2W. END. OF. F**KING. STORY.

Edited by Volthorne, 05 June 2013 - 11:05 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

Volthorne, on 05 June 2013 - 11:05 PM, said:

I have no idea.

Thomas, time to shut down this thread once and for all: if I buy a Hero Mech and it comes with - and here's the important part, so pay attention - 5 extra weightless, crit-less heatsinks then it is P2W. If it confers some active advantage over a free 'Mech by physically being better in combat, it is P2W. If it does not provide the aforementioned advantage, it is not P2W. END. OF. F**KING. STORY.

Not even close.

[Volthorne]

Thomas Covenant, on 05 June 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

Not even close.

What exactly are you trying to achieve here, other than look a fool? P2W is a line drawn in the sand - nay, it is the Grand-damned-Canyon, and everyone but you can see it. Skill varies from player to player and is ever-changing. Arguing that not being able to access something that would better suit your playstyle is a strawman beyond belief, due to the previous sentece.

Here's another example: I play LoL, and used to only be good with AD Carries, and then found some AP Assassins I really liked, and it just snowballed. Does that mean if I couldn't buy one AD Carry that *might* have fit my playstyle better it would have been P2W? **** no, I still would have found the AP Assassins, and my skillset/playstyle would have evolved.

Why am I even continuing this thread if you're too blind to see the truth.*

*Yes, that was made into a statement and not a question on purpose, because I already know the answer.

Edited by Volthorne, 05 June 2013 - 11:57 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

You are only looking at one form of pay to win. You see it is not that specific form, and then you assume there is none of any form. Do you see how this might leave you missing all the facts?

A castle might usually be attacked from the entrance, but an attack from the back is very much still an attack.
It doesn't matter where the threat comes from, only if you can and do deal with it.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 06 June 2013 - 01:43 AM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

K-town.

[JSparrowist]

I own several Hero mechs...I will own them all eventually... why? because I want to support PGI financially and give them additional funds to continue development.

Do I get any advantages over the other variants of said chassis? Nope! I die just like everyone else. A cbill boost over the other variants is not pay 2 win as it effects actual gameplay in no way. The unique hard points are not pay 2 win. They simply make the mech slightly different than the other variants available. It does not give them an advantage and in some cases, like the Pretty Baby, is WORSE than the other Awesomes!

When Hero mechs come out that have internal heat-sinks or embedded weapons that don't use crit slots or don't generate heat when fired, yeah, that would be pay 2 win. Until that happens, please, be quiet about P2W heros.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thomas Covenant, on 05 June 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

Not even close.

So premium time is pay to win?

@JSparrowist... you should change your Sig to, "PGI-- just said NO to poptarders!"

[Volthorne]

Thomas Covenant, on 06 June 2013 - 01:40 AM, said:

You are only looking at one form of pay to win. You see it is not that specific form, and then you assume there is none of any form. Do you see how this might leave you missing all the facts?

A castle might usually be attacked from the entrance, but an attack from the back is very much still an attack.
It doesn't matter where the threat comes from, only if you can and do deal with it.

I only see one form of P2W because there IS only one form of P2W - buying power. Saying or believing otherwise is like asking the school bully to give you a wedgie on purpose. Or something else along those lines ("Why are you hitting yourself? Stop hitting yourself!"). Arguing that skill/playstyle is any sort of factor in P2W is essentially saying that you can buy skill - a statement that has been proven false since ALWAYS.

Also, castles are traditionally built with one side where they CANNOT be attacked from (or at least so it is very difficult to attack from). I know you're trying to be all zen and stuff, but honestly, get some relevant analogies.

[Thomas Covenant]

Volthorne, on 06 June 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Also, castles are traditionally built with one side where they CANNOT be attacked from (or at least so it is very difficult to attack from). I know you're trying to be all zen and stuff, but honestly, get some relevant analogies.

I'll try to keep that in mind.

Quote

I only see one form of P2W because there IS only one form of P2W - buying power.

That is a form I have identified.

Quote

Saying or believing otherwise is like asking the school bully to give you a wedgie on purpose. Or something else along those lines ("Why are you hitting yourself? Stop hitting yourself!"). Arguing that skill/playstyle is any sort of factor in P2W is essentially saying that you can buy skill - a statement that has been proven false since ALWAYS.

So you are 100% evenly skilled with all mechs I take it. I guess you never need to buy more than one, since you have the same skill in all of them. Must be convenient for you.

You are right, castles are designed that way, so it is difficult to attack from behind. So when your guard informs you of the attack, do you choose to disregard him?

The Titanic was designed so it CANNOT sink. I see ice. If you don't like what I have to say then don't listen. The internet is a big place. If what I have to say has no validity you are better off not even bumping my thread for me. I would like to be wrong, but what I present isn't a theory it's an observation.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 06 June 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Thomas Covenant]

JSparrowist, on 06 June 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

I own several Hero mechs...I will own them all eventually... why? because I want to support PGI financially and give them additional funds to continue development.

Would you still do so if the free players had access to the variants without the bonuses and special paint?

Quote

Do I get any advantages over the other variants of said chassis? Nope! I die just like everyone else.

Your advantage is the availability to more mechs that might work better for you.

[Joseph Mallan]

Thomas Covenant, on 06 June 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

Would you still do so if the free players had access to the variants without the bonuses and special paint?



Your advantage is the availability to more mechs that might work better for you.

I get a better bonus for a lot less money on my Jager/40, Atlas-D-DC, Centurion, Stalker...etc for buying Premium time. All I get with a Hero is more money.

[Volthorne]

Thomas Covenant, on 06 June 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:

That is a form I have identified.

No, what you've identified is buying skill (which I've already debunked as impossible), not power. None of your exmples have demonstably proven that Mech B (the cash-only purchase) is any more combat effective than Mech A (the free/soft-cash purchase) through a physical improvement, such as extra heatsinks that take no room or weight, or have AC/20s that deal 25 damage.

You seem to deal in theories and the immeasurable. That **** doesn't fly when trying to debate an issue.

Quote

So you are 100% evenly skilled with all mechs I take it. I guess you never need to buy more than one, since you have the same skill in all of them. Must be convenient for you.

Now you're just being absurd. Each player is going to have his own unique playstyle - for example, I run best in anything 40 tons and up, as long as it moves at a decent clip. If I was 100% effective in all mechs then there would be a fundamental flaw in the game, something we like to call "GunbagWarrior: Online". The crux of the matter is that if I'm bad in an Atlas, a Hero Atlas with a slightly different layout isn't going to change anything, and the same goes for being very good in an Atlas. Money can't buy skill. Skill is earned and learned. You haven't grasped that basic concept.

Quote

You are right, castles are designed that way, so it is difficult to attack from behind. So when your guard informs you of the attack, do you choose to disregard him?

No, I send him back with a few buddies to make absolutely sure it's an attack and not just a diversion.

Quote

The Titanic was designed so it CANNOT sink. I see ice. If you don't like what I have to say then don't listen. The internet is a big place. If what I have to say has no validity you are better off not even bumping my thread for me. I would like to be wrong, but what I present isn't a theory it's an observation.

The Titanic was SAID to be unsinkable. If it was built so it COULDN'T sink then it wouldn't be on the bottom of the arctic ocean. If you can provide solid evidence - videos, screencaps, HARD DATA - that proves players are more effective in Hero 'Mechs than out of them I'd be inclined to believe you. Unfortunately, you have not provided said evidence, and I'm 99% sure that it won't be coming very shortly either, since to get the substantial amount of proof needed you'd have to literally make every player play with every single 'Mech for a decent amount of time, after which they'd have learned the quirks of said 'Mech, thus throwing off your results (plus your sample size would have to be massive, so good luck on that front).

You're almost as bad as PEEFsmash at arguements/debates.

Edits for grammar.

Edited by Volthorne, 06 June 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

It is not a question of the mech but the man.

Don't take this the wrong way Thomas, but I think it is time you put the BONG away my friend. First it was about the Tools in use, now suddenly it is about the Pilot?

I would hazard a guess and say most BUY the Hero's for the C-Bill bonus. It is great and likely, in the long run, save them real cash later down the road as more C-Bills can help them buy other non hero Mechs.

You may state your point, but dismissing others does not further your cause, at all.