1217 replies to this topic

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

MonkeyCheese, on 11 June 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Seriously it has been a week, I dont think I can keep my hopes up any longer.

WAAIIT. Don't go cresting that hill just yet. Think twice before you jumpjet spasm\land into the middle of two Steiner scout lances full of DDC Atlases and insult Katrina (or Melissa). Don't give up hope. Not yet. PGI reads these things. (I assume.) And I don't think they want to lose more and more players to all the other games that are coming out to compete. They want to keep this game high in the mindshare of any gamers who were:

• Willing to try the game
  
• Willing to learn to the curve
  
• Willing to actually spend money

The whole point of these hotfixes and patches is so the PGI sailboat can tack into the high winds of the market, going after new blood, while retaining what they've gained. They want to keep the noobs happy and they want to keep the hardcores and the simmers placated (because they know that happiness is a really complicated subject, and we don't have time to really go into why we can never be truly happy, though we can get a close enough approximation to...nevermind). But what they don't want to do is end up catering to people who will only sample the game, complain about deficiencies, and then move on to the next Free2Play, or go back to Halo 5. And what they definitely don't want to do is take a game that could have potentially been THE Mechwarrior gaming franchise of the 21st century and find that they've lost the confidence of much of the Battletech and Mechwarrior fanbase because of a slow and bumpy start.

What they are doing now will define what Mech and Battletech means for the players. Is it lines of giant walking tanks, brawling it out? Is it a modern multi-role combat simulator with giant mechanoids playing out scores of different tactical options with their squad mates? Is it basically a slower paced shooter with giant lasers and explosions? How they're making the meta will determine how successful this enterprise will be. And so far, we've seen lots of two stepping, unfortunately in both directions.

Will I be playing this game next year? Will you? How they resolve this jump jet issue, lets get real, that's going to be a big part in how that question is answered. That will clue us in to how they're going to treat this game, the player base, and the gaming experience itself. If people are just here to play a game, have fun, and win, that's fine. But I'm here to play Battletech. So far this game is close enough to what I've expected, but it's also in danger of roaming into new ground, which can be fine, as long as you're still in Battletech territory. When it stops feeling like big damn robots, and starts seeming like cursor clicky versus armored figure, we have a problem.

I still have faith, but I'm also anxiously holding my breath to see where this all goes. Don't let us down, PGI.

[Kunae]

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 11 June 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

I don't think they want to lose more and more players to all the other games that are coming out to compete.

I so very much can't wait til Star Citizen comes out.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Kunae, on 11 June 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

I so very much can't wait til Star Citizen comes out.

Yeah my gaming fall is looking pretty booked with Wasteland 2 and Shadowrun coming out. I unloaded Battlefield 3 so I could devote my SSD to MWO, but good lord, things are progressing so slowly I fear I might end up moving on before the getting gets really good.

The creators of my Mechwarrior experience will continue receiving the benefits of patience, but I have been patient for a long time, for Mechwarrior, for Wasteland, and for Shadowrun games. And it's amazing that three favored franchises from my childhood would be out around the same time, after so long of there being nothing, and it's ironic that I can only play one game at a time.

The difference is that MWO has me today. And if they continue to engage their player-base and work with us to help make this game the best it can be, they'll still have me tomorrow. But if it starts seeming like PGI is just making these fixes to say they handled the issue, and then move away from it, leaving it in a less than satisfactory state. If it seems like PGI picks a side in an argument instead of going with what would be best for their Battletech world. If it seems like PGI is losing the feeling for what makes a mech game a good, and fun, and immersive experience, then I'll be forced to say they gave it a really good try.

The new cockpit angles, the JJ shake, the impersonal and anonymous way of play that reminds me of Quake2 Deathmatches, these things are detrimental.

[MonkeyCheese]

ArchMage Sparrowhawk, on 11 June 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Will I be playing this game next year? Will you? How they resolve this jump jet issue, lets get real, that's going to be a big part in how that question is answered.

I still have faith, but I'm also anxiously holding my breath to see where this all goes. Don't let us down, PGI.

Will I be playing next year? after watching the ps4 e3 presentation and the way this jumpjet issue is being ignored then no I wont be playing next year. And my money is already pouring into planetside 2, and I had not played that game for months, mechwarrior was daily.

It is depressing to see here http://mwomercs.com/...te-june-112013/ They are fixing the high heat high pinpoint alpha problem aka ppc boating that was the real problem with poptarts and every land mech, yet there is ZERO feedback on removing this stupid bandaid fix now that ppc overheat boating jumpjetting cataphracts and highlanders will no longer be a problem.

The only thing I am holding onto is the flea with masc and the lifting of the 150kph speed cap, but it all keeps getting pushed back.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

With this Jump Jet Shake,I just keep imagining the Spiders arms and legs flopping around like the guy from QWOP. With Bill Cosby's voice singing "Zippity Zow. Zippity Bop. Zippity Wow. Zippity Pop Pop Pop Pop!", over a mishmash of jazz drums and the sounds of broken machinery.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 11 June 2013 - 02:59 PM.

[ClanKiller]

TheStrider, on 11 June 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

Paul, I think this is a better option. Shake the weapons rather than the cockpit. As a flying brawler I think that would be a better answer.

I like this suggestion! You can still pin-point target, but due to the movement you may miss. Although I feel this should be implemented for all movement, not just jump jet.

[Zeus X]

Niko Snow, on 04 June 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Tell us what you think of the new Jump-Jet Shake gameplay tweaks!

Spoiler

- Screen shake - Jump jetting Mechs shake while jump jets are active.
- Cross hair shake - Cross-hair shake while jump jets are active.
- Weapon fire spread - Aiming weapons is randomly offset while jump jets are active.

----
Just a quick FYI for everyone. We will investigate the reduction of screen shake to help those experiencing motion sickness and will try to reduce it to bearable levels. The targeting shake however will remain the same for the foreseeable future.

-Paul

Still waiting on a response.

Great we got some news on gameplay about weapons, but what about the parkinson's of jump jetting? We going to wait months till this is fixed like the osteoporosis we had with light mechs?

[Vaan]

jayrow, on 10 June 2013 - 06:50 AM, said:

Please remove this mechanic from lights and make it apply only to heavier mechs. I understand the need for the change and believe it makes the game better. However, there are some reasons why lights should be exempt that would make sense while at the same time being fair for balance.

-Light mechs weigh less and therefore are easier to get into the air.

-The amount of fire power that can be fitted to a light mech makes them ineffective as a poptart which was the main problem with jump jets.

-Mobility and heavy use of jumpjets are a light's best defense and to remove their offensive capabilities while in the air seems kind of harsh.

-Its very fun to go zipping through the air and land a perfect shot. It makes you feel great because it was already difficult to do. Landing a shot is now based on luck alone and taking skill out of the equation.

At the end of the day a game is about having fun. I don't see how making this change would ruin the fun for others playing against light mechs. It would certainly bring back loads of enjoyment while piloting one though. I play 2 mechs of each weight class so I feel I can speak for the average player. Keep up the good work PGI!

This is impossible.. Do you wish to see all pop-tarters loves jump to light/medium classes? Do you want to see 8v8 with 1 side all light/medium class? You claim that you play 2 mechs of each weight yet you cant understand what is the whole situation is about..

As i said on my last few previous posts.. JJ shake can be reduce but removing is not possible and of course PGI might implement something which will benefit both sides.. The way that you have posted either you have not been to battleground for a long time or just another full time pop-tart lover..

Edited by Vaan, 11 June 2013 - 05:51 PM.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Vaan, on 11 June 2013 - 05:27 PM, said:

As i said on my last few previous posts.. JJ shake can be reduce but removing is not possible and of course PGI might implement something which will benefit both sides.. The way that you have posted either you have not been to battleground for a long time or just another full time pop-tart lover..

Which is worse for meta? A 2PPC/Big Gun Poptart, or an LRM Boat with two LRM20s and 2 small lasers?

you know what would really nerf poptarters? A working battle map and a REAL way to stage organized tactics while in game, instead of playing text message Charades trying to describe the giant wheel where the enemy is. If you could target a mech, and order two mates to flank, with waypoint setting and fire commands....THAT would change the game.

This just mangles the game. Keep arguing like it's the last piece of pizza. "You're just mad because you can't pop-tart anymore! Pop-tart lover!!" I see arguments ilke this, and my eyes want to roll out of my head so damned hard. This isn't you and your heroic group against the villainous poptarting legion. This is people trying to play a game through the breadth of that which is available to them. This dynamic wasn't addressed properly in the last game, so now PGI has a chance to do it right, instead of literally solving it with a freaking decal. Literally. A sticker. On the problem.

So PGI can come up with a better solution and actually end up with a better game. I really encourage them to try. This attempt here is not it guys. Please go down a few levels and give a real solution. Hell, you can even include some form of shake, but this iteration needs to be recalled.

[von Pilsner]

Arrachtas, on 04 June 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

there's no way the developers can build a game that triggers no one's health reactions of any of a myriad of kinds (how about those with seizures from bright flashes? Or the colour blind? Should we make the game monotone, then?).

Flashes at a certain frequency trigger seizures, all a game has to do is not have effects (like a propellor un a flight sim) flash at that small frequency range. Some games even include epilipsy filters that can be optionally employed.

Custom HUD colors fix it for the colour blind.

But I suspect that you were just making **** up to support your argument because you don't like the jump sniping playstyle.

Arrachtas, on 04 June 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

This is the internet, and this is a video game - people can and do lie to get what they want, sad to say.

Apparently some do...

[bonapartist1]

Jump jet mechs are horribly unpleasant now...

[Col Jaime Wolf]

AssaultHatori, on 10 June 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

As a general player of both Groundbound and JJ type units, Here's my honest opinion of the whole issue.


Just ended 4 matches with my RVN-4X and HGN 733P and I have to say I'm kind of nauseous after jumping and firing with them. However, I think that two things ought to be removed from the JJ shake or reduced with some tinkering.

Namely, the Cockpit shake, and the Reticule shake.

Personally, I think this is rather lazy of PGI to simply "fix" a meta issue this way. And it's not exactly helping those who suddenly realize they can't cope with the change due to various health reasons..


Disclaimer: I'm not prone to motion sickness, and here's a list of the units i play.



As you can see, I play a mix of units, with the K-2 being used the most often. Pop tarting isn;t exactly difficult, but it's also completely beatable without having a handicap given to them. It's not every day you can find a hotshot sniping assault who can headshot you with 4 er ppcs.

As a Sniper light/med user on a RVN-4X and BJ-1/3, here's my take:

-Cockpit shake and Reticule shake should be reduced by degrees, with differing values on different units, with differing loadouts. <- i can see many good ways of going about this way
Why?: As a whole, JJ shake gives a new feel to the use of JJ's as an offensive tool. However, the Cockpit shake and Reticule shake should be reduced by varying degrees based on the units played, rather than a "one-size fits all" slapdash patch that PGI's given us to solve the cries of the QQers against poptarting. Light/Medium units should have lessened Cockpit/Recticule shake based on the number/location of JJs on their chassis.


-Jumpjet shake should be reduced with JJ locations balanced out, and emphasized on when not OR be based on the number of JJs added, INCLUDING the location nerf.
Why?: ton for ton, we're giving up engine speed, armor and possibly weaponry just to be able to gain additional movement capability. The JJ shake should stabilize the way you pack your JJ's into your mech. Eg. 4 JJs balanced out properly over the parts of the mech should aid in stabilizing the mech's aim, not mess it up. <- novel good idea




And to the anti-poptarting group:

Poptarting is not just limited to Jumping units: <- very true
I use my CT-K2 more than any unit, with 4 ER PPcs. I can assure you, poptarting can be done on the ground, with maximum effect. All you need is to hide behind a structure. Having a "Praise the <insert deity>" moment because you can't handle hiding behind structures properly when facing poptarts, makes you guys as bad as the QQers who want poptarting.

second this wholeheartedly, we need real counters and interesting game mechanics to balance issues like this out, rather than the sweeping changes we have been receiving with each patch. underlined for emphasis.

Edited by Mellifluer, 11 June 2013 - 10:56 PM.

[Mechsniper]

PGI, you made all the jump mechs pretty much worthless. The QQ from noobs that cant flank and brawl against jumpers in EPIC. I will continue to pwn them in the PPC/Guass snipers from the ground. They now want you to make weapons not even hit where they are aimed. If you want all the guys that spend the MC and will be here in the long run to stick around, you need to put the nerf bat in a do not break glass for QQ'er emergency box, paint it red and put a guard on it requiring 3 senior staff to bring it out. You over nerf every time you claim balance. Being able to shoot and have some semblance of hitting your target is an iconic part of MechWarrior. Love it or hate it. Hacking was a very large and real part of the problem in MW4 that is not being recognized in the current debate on jump snipers. Wall hacks and aimbots especially. The tears of the guys who are claiming victory over your acquiescing to their feeble cries about the evils of jump sniping will return for they are being killed by another means. You cannot nerf good players down to make bad players better. IF weapons at some point quit hitting where aimed, I am out then. For now I await the pendulum to swing back to center on jets. Please keep some cockpit shake, but a highlander at the moment shakes until it is almost back to earth, and then it shakes so bad you cant see anything more than 100m in front of the mech. The reticle shake is completely unacceptable to me. It adds an element of difficulty to aim and shoot while in flight anyway. If some cockpit shake is left(not nearly what there is now I hope) then the jets will be plenty balanced without it. For now you killed the highlander, victor, and any other heavy and larger jump mech for most players.

Edited by Mechsniper, 11 June 2013 - 09:05 PM.

[Krivvan]

Mellifluer, on 10 June 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

can a jenner move 3 times faster then an atlas with JJ?

In MWO, yes. If you knew how to use the JJ correctly.

Mechsniper, on 11 June 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

PGI, you made all the jump mechs pretty much worthless.

As long as you don't get motion sick, aiming with jump jets is still extremely easy. I would know, it's still all I do. If I absolutely need a pin-point shot then I fire right at the apex of a jump. If anything that means it takes more skill to use.

Edited by Krivvan, 12 June 2013 - 12:32 AM.

[HoppinRaven]

Shake is fun but in my humble opinion a tad too hard. Also should the weapon stability mounts (used in moving and aiming) not correct for most of this?

Idea: perhaps variation in shake for different chassis? (Better builds etc.)

[MonkeyCheese]

Abandon all hope they clearly dont care and are just ignoring this thread.

It should be a topic in this thread http://mwomercs.com/...14#entry2442114 but nothing at all.

With the fixing of the ppc/high heat builds poptarts shouldnt be a threat.

R.I.P little spider of mine. </3

[Aslena]

I originally took my JJ off of my mechs that had them because it gives me headaches.... I put them back on and close my eyes when I need to jump up a cliff or something it seems to help just have to work at getting the timing right lol....

[No7]

You know there once was a little boy who could barely walk that was playing chess against his mother.

The boy always did a left side pawn rush with some help from his bishops.

The mother, trying the real life approach, always defeated him by using her queen and knights.

The boy cried and cried. It is not fair! Your queen and knights kill me every time!

So PGI, erhm, sorry, the mother simply removed them from the board so the boy could continue doing his left side pawn rush without the threat of being torn apart by the queen and the knights.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Krivvan, on 12 June 2013 - 12:31 AM, said:

In MWO, yes. If you knew how to use the JJ correctly. <- you start slowing down as soon as you are off the ground with JJ, sry you just dont move that speed physically. even if you can make good time. there is no way to physically maintain 150 KPH while jetting. that is a fact of this game, JJ do not make you go faster, you physically move slower when jetting. yes you can get over terrain much faster, because you dont have to deal with getting clipped on small rocks/outcroppings....... but your not maintaining that speed so overall no, you are not outrunning the atlas 3-4 times like a light should, more like 2-3 times on average. lights are supposed to leave assaults in the dust, kinda part of that being a tin can mech.

As long as you don't get motion sick, aiming with jump jets is still extremely easy. I would know, it's still all I do. If I absolutely need a pin-point shot then I fire right at the apex of a jump. If anything that means it takes more skill to use. <- eh... after hearing what some people have to say, and after trying some combinations of JJ on my mechs, spiders, treb, cataphract and catapult, highlander. sigh.... i think lights dont need any of this at all. its garbage for them completely. for med im gonna have to say it it nerfs them to, the most powerful med "poptart" (if you can call it that) is my jumping Treb and it has 2erppc and SRM6, the erppc are useless as expected, the srm eh only cuz you dont shoot them that far anyways, and its a shotgun, kinda hits still, doesn't really surprise people the way it used to tho.... for heavies eh don't understand for crap, the catapult is a purpose built mobility mech, purpose built mobility missile carrier, yet it feels like JJ were a secondary consideration in the engineering process now? same with the highlander..... its a purpose built JJ assault, but the JJ dont feel like they were designed for this mech..... feels like someone stole my real JJ and strapped some M80-s to my mech and lit the fuse...... oh and the victor is coming out and its a purpose built JJ assault..... that is going to likely feel like my M80 strapped highlanders...... im just saying if you think about it, ALL THE JJ MECHS in this game. are purpose built jummpers, not one of them strays from TT configs at all in stock config concerning JJ. yet JJ mechs in this game are nerfed constantly under some pretense of balance. when everyone already has already ascertained that PPC boating is the problem not "poptarting".

responces in italics

and it still doesnt really reflect a lights very real ability in TT to simply use its JJ to move and attack larger slower mechs and still have the movement points to get behind cover, in 1 turn. that is what lights truest advantage was in TT. their sheer mobility/speed for scouting and the ability for any light to retreat from almost any slower foe, to use tactics and speed to overcome another mechs (usually) far superior firepower.

being that even in TT lights usually lack firepower as well. its called game balance. see if someone can shoot a light in 1 shot with an atlas, good, an atlas should be at least powerful enough to level lights in 1 or 2 shots straight up. but if it takes even 20 (dont take at exact value, just a roundedish number, think of how many shots a spider has to really get off to get a kill vs a streak raven, or vs a laser Jenner) shots from a light to kill an atlas, because he cant stop moving for even a moment....lest he be cheesed in 1 shot, no second chances at all from this one, just death...... then JJ should allow even more novice pilots to be able to get a good 15 of those shots in somewhat cleanly, with tactics and a little skill maybe the other 5 happen in a brawl for the lights life. <- that would be balance, the atlas only needs 1 shot 1 chance to kill the light, and he will get that 1 chance at least 15-20 times before that light kills him, that light has to keep hammering the atlas, that means the light has 15-20 chances of dying, and he cant waist any of them up until the last for the kill shot itself. thats why JJ need to be usefull, because it simply isnt fair for some mechs to cheese other mechs, if those mechs have no way of ONE HITTING ther other at all. they need a tactical solution, speed, mobility, range, something so they can actually fight back.

in a game of firepower generally (but not always) he who brings the bigger guns wins. this is true mostly for the novices, they just get blasted in half from dakka dakka alphastriking monster mechs. not even really knowing what to do, its painful to watch some players get chewed up and spit out so hard, watching 4 assaults fight over who gets the kill...... really JJ are noob friendly because they allow newcommers a tactic that fatlas and LRM boats have failed to consider, the 3d dimension. it changes the rules of the game, makes it so dakka dakka alpha strike isnt the ONLY solution, in fact brawlers are kinda meek and weak in TT if not properly used. see in TT if i made my lance 100% brawler, sure i would blast a few of my foes mechs in half, but its likely only half my team will even live long enough to shoot at an enemy mech, if my foe has a varied and balanced team, with mechs chosen to play off each-others strengths as well as cover each-others weaknesses. its very likely that half to most of my lance would be leveled before they got within firing range, that is how important combined arms and balanced load outs are in TT. and they should be just as important here.

while you can move much much faster than an atlas with a prebuilt JJ Jenner, your still not really moving the 3-4 times faster than an atlas can go, atlas tops out at 64ish? the jenner is capped at 150, so it doesnt even really go 3 times as fast as an atlas, which in tabletop, almost all light mechs could accomplish even with stock configs, also in tabletop JJ don't just make you pop up or hoover around, they actually allow you to know, jump a distance with such a speed that it is a like a tactical flank........ not something that can be done very well in this game. and not that it matters but only my HM is set up as a pure jump snipe (erppc/guass) and i refuse to change it, my other two 733c and 733 are jump SRM LL guass/ac20 brawlers. don't like the look of the 733P as much however, too much firepower on one side, too easy to disable with a good shot.

Edited by Mellifluer, 12 June 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Milt]

the jj nerf has made me change games to forumwarrior instead of mechwarrior. i suppose i really should find my next game. too bad i liked this game enough not to have already moved on like a lot of ppl already have