96 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Rasc4l, on 21 October 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

I've made a suggestion, which would e.g. improve BAP to be able to gather additional information with time (and shorter range) from enemy mechs such as XL or STD engine, modules, ammo locations. It's a bit long read, because it covers some other things as well regarding information warfare.

http://mwomercs.com/...are-your-input/

Made a similar suggestion in the OP:

"Further, the Beagle Active Probe also has a probing ability in the expanded Double Blind rules of Battletech in which it can view an opposing 'Mechs record sheet and see all of its information. This could be simulated in MWO by allowing a 'Mech equipped with Beagle Active Probe to scan enemy targets within its 120m radius and see a more detailed readout, that could show the location of items, what equipment it has such as an XL engine, heat level, etc. ECM would shroud a 'Mech from Beagle's ability to gain this information."

[Naduk]

i think more equipment is needed rather than super buffing on BAP or ECM
unless it is an upgraded version that weighs more and cost more (like Artemis for LRM)

adding to many features onto BAP will cause it to become overpowered
it already does lots and lots of things

i think you should get bonus for having combo's of electronic systems
ECM+BAP was a feared combination on the Raven in BT lore

so if the sensor powers mentioned in the OP were applied to a mech using both ECM and BAP things would get very cool
then you could also include things like seismic sensors (or a physical option of them also) to grant even more effects

you can take it a step further and include interactions between TAG/Narc + BAP
something like Tag effect last for 4seconds after leaving target when fitting with BAP
TAG+ECM could be a enemy tag/narc removal for friendly units
BAP+NARC could attract ALL missiles traveling within 500m of narc'd mech
ECM+NARC could a buff narc time and transfer all of the targets sensor data for narc duration

those were just of the top of my head, there would be so many possibilities

[DocBach]

Not really super buffing the BAP, just giving it the functionality that it's suppose to have; Narc, however, also needs a buff. Right now, most of the Beagle's inherent ability has been stripped and turned into modules, whereas the ECM not only kept its abilities, but got a whole level of additional stealth fields along with it.

Narc and Beagle are suppose to be effective enough to want to take ECM to block them. Right now, it's the other way around, where ECM does so much that you take Beagle to counter it.

You take electronics.... to counter electronic counter measures.

Right now Beagle and ECM don't work together at all, like you mentioned - the devs said that using both provides no benefit. The interaction from the lore between the two is this; Beagle lets you see behind obstacles, ECM lets you block that. A 'Mech like the Raven would be able to move behind cover like buildings or hills, but if it had both ECM and Beagle it would remain undetectable by enemy Beagle, while being able to provide the sensor bonuses for its team.

Edited by DocBach, 28 October 2013 - 05:43 AM.

[Darth Futuza]

I wish tags were more useful as well instead of just for allowing your teammates to target.

[Arctcwolf]

Traditional Beagle probes have boosted sensor range from a max of 800m to 1200m...a 50% increase in sensor range. This seems like a good idea to implement. This applies to non ECM mechs.

BAP's also allowed players to detect mechs in the ECM "shield" area at 50% of sensor range, 600m or less. This should also be implemented as a change.

Lastly, BAP's allowed detection of ECM equipped mechs within 300m, an increase of 50% above the current setting of 200m. This also should be implemented.

I dont think these changes will make BAP's OP, or make it unfair for ECM mechs. This is just how BAP's traditionally work, and the changes make sense.

[DocBach]

That's the effects it had in previous MechWarrior titles; however, in the source material -- namely the Tactical Operations expanded ruleset for Battletech, both Beagle and Guardian ECM got more functionality that allowed them to provide more utility when used stand alone, and more options to counter each other.

Right now, ECM has tons of standalone utility; whereas it is suppose to exist to block very specialized electronic devices, it counters everybody's sensor suite.

Beagle, however, is comparably worthless for its 1.5 tons if the ECM it now exists to block doesn't appear on the battlefield.

[DocBach]

With the recent addition of skirmish mode, the ability for the last 'Mech standing to troll the winning team by forcing the timer to wait out, the ability of Beagle to detect hidden 'Mechs without line of sight would be a great deterrent to that sort of grief tactic.

[Dirus Nigh]

I agree with the OP proposal. However I would like to give a slightly altered suggestion.

MWO is missing some dynamic elements with the environments on maps. Trees do not effect targeting, neither do heavy smoke, dust, or other effects. One of the more subtle negative effects of how ECM works is that it's effects would be compounded if these elements were in the game.

In Battletech BAP gives the user the ability to see hidden, or other wise camouflaged units. To translate this into MWO I would have BAP counter environmental effects with in 150m. Such as trees, dust, and smoke. I think this would be a better ability than seeing through a hill or building. The seismic sensor and target decay modules already give a bonus in that regard.

Remove ECM's anti detection sphere and it will be all but balanced. I have no problem with ECM giving a longer lock on time for missile weapons, delaying target data from being loaded, cutting off all data relaying to teammates with in 180m, and counting bonuses given by NARC, TAG, and Artemis.

[Prezimonto]

What about, allow BAP to give a green or red outline to every mech within the detention radius? So shut down or hiding or whatever, a green or red overlay would pop up on the actual HUD.

[DocBach]

I think an outline showing a 'Mech is more of a magscan anomaly sensor ability.

Darius - in more advanced levels of Battletech with double blind play, Beagle was described as active radar that could see beyond terrain, so it would function somewhat like the seismic module but even while moving (though with a shorter range, and the ability to be blocked by ECM).

[Sandpit]

What if the BAP decreased the ECM range? So instead of hard countering it reduced the ECM bubble by half as well as keeping its current mechanics?

It would immediately reduce the size of the bubble for ECM but not give it an actual hard counter. It would, however, reduce its effectiveness a bit. I never understood why it doesn't have two modes like the ECM.

Active and Passive
Passive would give the perks of reducing the ECM bubble and allowing faster target lock
Active would be used to gather information faster, locate powered down mechs (I'd increase that range to about 250 personally that's right at the edge of the range of SRMs)

It's kind of hard to see where they're going with the whole information warfare right now though. Maybe if it had a bubble effect as well that allowed those within the bubble (maybe this is where command console and targeting computers could come in? Along with things like the C3 system?) so that when linked with those kinds of things it would actually provide a bubble affect to linked mechs.

[DocBach]

The way Information Warfare is looking, ECM blocks standard sensors, all the advanced electronics (which its suppose to block) counter it.

But now all of the other Info Warfare stuff does more than counter ECM, but Beagle's ability is pretty lame.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Tha fact is that all electronic warfare is very, very poorly disigned and implemented.

[General Taskeen]

DocBach, on 22 January 2014 - 04:40 PM, said:

But now all of the other Info Warfare stuff does more than counter ECM, but Beagle's ability is pretty lame.

MWO's entire info warfare programming is the lamest of all the Mech Warrior games

[DocBach]

MechWarrior 3 didn't have electronic warfare, and MW4 was very limited. MWO is following the double blind detection rules from advanced Battletech pretty well, with the exception of how the individual electronic warfare equipment works, notably ECM.

[Jabilo]

BAP does a lot of cool stuff, but because none of it is combat critical it gets left on the shelf; because it is never as good as spending 1.5 tons on weapons, ammo or heatsinks.

As someone pointed out earlier, BAP is a Streak tax and the only time you will see it on a config is when you have a non ECM mech running Streaks.

Frankly the entire way that information warfare works needs to be thrown out of the window and started again. In the meantime you could make BAP 1 ton instead of 1.5 and at least you would see people using it.

[Strum Wealh]

Jabilo, on 02 March 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

BAP does a lot of cool stuff, but because none of it is combat critical it gets left on the shelf; because it is never as good as spending 1.5 tons on weapons, ammo or heatsinks.

As someone pointed out earlier, BAP is a Streak tax and the only time you will see it on a config is when you have a non ECM mech running Streaks.

Frankly the entire way that information warfare works needs to be thrown out of the window and started again. In the meantime you could make BAP 1 ton instead of 1.5 and at least you would see people using it.

I equip all of my 'Mechs with Beagle as a matter of course.

----------

DocBach, on 02 February 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

MechWarrior 3 didn't have electronic warfare, and MW4 was very limited. MWO is following the double blind detection rules from advanced Battletech pretty well, with the exception of how the individual electronic warfare equipment works, notably ECM.

Actually, MW3 did have some semblance of EWAR.

Quote

Electronic Equipment: These devices assist with targeting, command and control, performance enhancement and electronic countermeasures.

• Artemis IV Fire Control System: This unit provides faster missile locks and allows your missiles to track the target more aggresively than usual. Best used on mechs that rely heavily on long range missile weapons, the enhanced targeting and tracking can make a sizable difference in the effectiveness of these systems. NOTE: Must be placed in same area as launcher to be effective! (Example: LRM-20 system in left torso must have Artemis IV in left torso. Only shots from left torso will be enhanced.)
  
• Beagle Active Probe (BAP): An active seeker that dispays even shut down mech units on the radar. Can be useful against enemies with a habit of hiding, then launching an attack on unsuspecting units. Its weight, size and specialized mission make it's use in multiplayer games questionable.
  
• C3 Computer: A two part system, consisting of a Master and a Slave unit. Will augument radar effectiveness by displaying lancemate or allied radar signals on the host radar display, effectively increasing the range. A very heavy device for the value obtained. Avoid this equipment unless specialized mission requirements neccessitate it.
  
• ECM Suite: A very valuable device for the resources required to carry it. Will disable enemy Targeting Computers, Artemis IV systems, NARC beacons, C3 Computers, Streak Missiles and Beagle Active Probes. TAG is unaffected by ECM, being an optical device. Pilots facing opponents with missile systems, will benefit greatly from the addition of an ECM suite. It is highly recommended. Enemies using Targeting Computers to assist with ballistic weapon targeting will suufer a decreased effectiveness of their targeting capability.
  
• Myomer Acceleration Signal Circuitry (MASC): This equipment acts as a turbo-charger for your mech. When engaged, speed is inceased by 25%. In a Thor, with a top speed of 81.0 kph, MASC will increase the top speed to 100.2 kph. Acceleration and throttle response are also improved. MASC does generate a good deal of heat while engaged however, and sufficient heat sinks must be equipped to prevent an overheat and shutdown condition. Can be toggled on and off with the "V" key. Best used on mechs that can use the extra speed provided.
  
• NARC Missile Beacon: - NARC used by itself causes NO DAMAGE to targets! -. A small device fired like a missile, it attaches itself to the target, and provides a homing beacon for subsequent missile launches. The weapon system and ammunition are both quite heavy, and given the inherent accuracy of missile systems, this device may be redundant. Plus, it's effects are nullified by the ECM suite, rendering NARC a heavy, useless piece of junk on the battlefield. It's use , especially in multi player games is inadvisable.
  
• Radar: Standard equipment in all mechs, the radar serves to locate and identify any active units on the battlefield.The radar operates in 2 separate modes, Passive and Active, radar modes are toggled by the "ALT+R" command. Passive radar is indicated by yellow lines in the radar display, it provides a detection range of 500 meters, it also limits enemy detection of your unit to 500 meters, and should be used when stealth is more important than detection range. It will also limit an enemies ability to acheive weapons lock beyond that range. When facing enemies using LRM missiles, or any weapon system with a range exceeding 500 meters the radar should always be set to passive mode. Active mode is identified by green lines in the radar display, it is the default staus of the radar and provides 1000 meters of detection range. Active mode should be used when arming your mech with long range weapons systems. The radar disply also has 2 modes of operation, Standard and Map mode. The display modes are toggled with the "SHIFT+R" command. Standard mode displays a small, transparent display in the upper left hand corner of the HUD. In addition, Standard mode can be toggled from small to large diplay with the "R" command. Large display mode will fill the entire HUD with the ranging and veiw lines of the radar display. Map mode also displays in the upper left hand corner, but super imposes it's range and view lines over a map display. This can be useful for navigation in an unknown area, but the map is not transparent and will limit the view from the cockpit. This is especially true in lower resolution modes.
  
• Target Aquisition Gear (TAG): Used as a targeting laser for Arrow IV artillery support. "Painting" a target with TAG will increase inbound missile accuracy. If the mission does not feature Arrow IV, do not equip this device. Arrow IV is never used in multi player games.
  
• Targeting Computer: A valuable unit, allowing you to target specific body locations, and provides an aiming cicle to help target moving enemies. Especially useful for ballistic and long range missile weapons, it's value to energy based attacks is less. Lasers reach the target almost instantly, so there is no need to lead a moving target. Machine guns, too, with their limited range and fast projectiles usually do not require additional support for aiming and firing. It's effectiveness is severely limited by the use of the ECM suite, rendering the aiming circle choppy and unstable.

(source)

Artemis, Beagle, Guardian, Narc, and TAG are already implemented in MWO.
MASC (needed for the Flea, among others) and Targeting Computers (needed for both the Puma and the Masakari, among others) are being worked on with regard to MWO implementation.

The role C3 filled in MW3 has been largely supplanted by MWO's implementation of the standard data-sharing systems built into all BattleMechs (see page 39 of TechManual), such that an alternate implementation (such as this one, for example) would be needed to make it distinct & useful.

Strum Wealh, on 23 February 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Then again, maybe they'll implement C3 Networks (with the associated C3 Command Units and C3 Slave Units), with data-sharing capabilities beyond what is currently available through the BattleMechs' basic data-sharing systems.
Doing so would open up variants like the MAL-C Mauler (a 3051 variant, based on the MAL-1R, that trades one ton of AC ammo for a C3 Slave Unit) and the PNT-C Panther (a 3051 variant, based on the PNT-10K, that trades the Artemis IV FCS for a C3 Slave Unit) and the CP-11-C Cyclops (a 3050 variant, based on the CP-11-A, that trades its LRM-10 launcher for a C3 Command Unit and two additional tons of armor).

Potential capabilities of a hypothetical MWO C3 Network:

• Decreased target info acquisition time (similar to Beagle, but to a lesser degree - perhaps 15% or so, versus Beagle's 25%) for all members of the network.
  
• Improves base sensor range (similar to Beagle, but to a lesser degree - perhaps 15% or so, versus Beagle's 25%) for all members of the network.
  
• Improves the lock-on-time and tracking strength of LRMs (similar to Artemis, but to a lesser degree - perhaps 25% or so, versus Artemis' 50%, Narc's 50%, and TAG's 50%) for all members of the network.
  
• Improves the grouping size of SRM volleys (similar to Artemis, but to a lesser degree - perhaps 15% or so, versus Artemis' 34%) for all members of the network.
  
• Improves convergence speed of torso and arm weapons (similar to "Pinpoint" 'Mech Tree Elite Efficiency, but to a lesser degree - perhaps 8% or so, versus Pinpoint's 15%) for all members of the network.
  
• All C3 bonuses stack with similar bonuses from other equipment.
  
• All C3 bonuses are active so long as one's 'Mech is carrying a functioning C3 Command Unit (5.0 tons, 5 critical slots) OR one's 'Mech is carrying a functioning C3 Slave Unit (1.0 tons, 1 critical slot) that can reach a lancemate's functioning C3 Command Unit.
  
• C3 Networks would automatically configure themselves at the start of a match (with the Lance Commander's C3 Command Unit taking precedence if there are multiple C3 Command Units, or precedence being randomly assigned if there is no designated Lance Commander, and the Company Commander's C3 Command Unit taking precedence among the Lance Commanders, or precedence being randomly assigned if there is no designated Company Commander).
  
• C3 systems have no ECM-countering ability, and members of a C3 network may be cut off from the network (and lose their C3-granted bonuses) when covered by a hostile ECM field.

In this way, the proposed C3 Network provides a wide breadth of benefits to a Lance or Company, but the benefits to the individual units/players do not necessarily supplant the places of dedicated equipment - C3 becomes the proverbial "jack of all benefits, master of none", and its effectiveness both increases with coordination and promotes coordination and communication.

Additionally, its presence opens up the availability of certain 'Mech variants (see here for 'Mechs with at least one variant equipped with a C3 Command Unit, and here for 'Mechs with at least one variant equipped with a C3 Slave Unit), and it would also serve as something of an IS counterpart to the Clans' Targeting Computer (which is fixed equipment on the Masakari chassis and pod-mounted equipment on the Puma Prime).

Thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 02 March 2014 - 05:29 PM.

[DocBach]

Something to add to the C3 system - currently we can only share targeting data for 'Mechs we have locked; 'Mechs on a C3 network are suppose to share total sensor data with each other, so 'Mechs on a C3 network should be able to target any 'Mech a spotter on the network has detected by radar, even if it is not targeted.

Interesting targeting computers were blocked by ECM in MW3. I'm wondering how they are going to implement them in MWO, especially because their ability to target specific locations is already easily done in MWO.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Thare are two things that are for sure. First, current electronics mechanics in this game is crap. Secend, devs should read source book called "Battletech Tactical Operations", just not sure if devs are familiar with it...



http://bg.battletech...ical-operations Im sure you can afford it.

And be sure about thinking, planning and designing game with some vision of future.
How the C3 will work when implemented for example.
Not like with SRM that you made them some sort of MRM. How do you implement MRM then? IF we allready have them in SRM incarnation.

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 21 April 2014 - 09:06 AM.

[DocBach]

A certain issue about C3 is that it actually allows a 'Mech to be more accurate the closer a spotter is to a target - currently there is no way direct fire weapons can be more accurate than they already are as they converge on your point of aim.

Perhaps C3 could be more of a tool for indirect fire spotting, where the closer the C3 spotter is to a target, the quicker 'Mechs in its network can lock on to an enemy.