391 replies to this topic

[Thomas Covenant]

Post #117: The "is there a problem" crowd, and the "how big of a problem" crowd
Post #124: Solutions

original post:

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If I give you a sword, a bow, and spear which you have never used either of, and I tell you to train with them...

If you say you are best with the spear...

If we go back to when you had never used them, would you still be best with the spear?

No, you have never used any of them.

Another question, would you still be best with the spear, if you tried them again?

If yes, then I believe hero mechs are pay to win.



Two gladiators enter an arena. They are presented with weapons. These weapons have been used by gladiators over and over, all have been used to win with roughly the same amount. The weapons are said to be balanced.

One gladiator is funded by a wealthy master, he gets a few more weapons. No weapon that has won more on average than any of the others.

The less fortunate gladiator has a smaller selection to choose from. The gladiator notices that one of the weapons the other has that he doesn't, is one hes trained his whole life with. One he knows like the back of his hand.

A player loads up mech warrior, he is going to buy a mech. He looks through the list. He sees a hero mech, it has a unique loadout. Unfortunately he is unable to pay the $20 for it. No matter as all the mechs are balanced, so he is at no disadvantage.

But if he had played it, he would realize it is the mech he is best at.

Is it pay to win?

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 06 June 2013 - 10:06 AM.

[One Medic Army]

No.
Also: metaphors are not an argument.

Edited by One Medic Army, 30 May 2013 - 11:36 PM.

[Iron Hyena]

What you are saying, is that one spear is red, and one is blue. You have to pay 20$ to get the red one, and thats paytowin.

You are wrong, and spent what seems to be a lot of effort to prove that, in a lot of metaphors.

[El Bandito]

Before the introduction of JM6-DD, Ilya was borderline P2W. I loved UAC5 and Ilya was the ONLY mech (MC only) with 3 of them for the longest time and frequently topped the damage charts. Only CTF-4X was similar but everyone knows 4X blows.

Just saying.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 May 2013 - 11:44 PM.

[Und3rSc0re]

What did I just read? Get out of here with your pay to win stuff. The day pgi sells mechs that give fixed dmg increases over standard mechs, and gold ppcs that have better heat efficiency with lower cooldown will be the day i call pgi p2w.

[Ralgas]

So you believe firebrand will be p2w, even though it's nothing a stalker cant do better? Or are you a Rifleman nut?

As said above, the illya/x-5 is the closest out there, although a tactics change and a 3d/3m still out performs it (till we get jj shooting balance).

/Sigh. time to get ready for the influx of false "sky is falling due to megacorp greed" threads

Edited by Ralgas, 30 May 2013 - 11:57 PM.

[Thomas Covenant]

El Bandito, on 30 May 2013 - 11:39 PM, said:

Before the introduction of JM6-DD, Ilya was borderline P2W. I loved UAC5 and Ilya was the ONLY mech (MC only) with 3 of them for the longest time and frequently topped the damage charts. Only CTF-4X was similar but everyone knows 4X blows.

Just saying.

My question for you is do you have a mech you are best at? If you did have one you were best at, and they changed it to a here mech(yours was taken but they gave the cbills back), if then would you consider your best mech to be pay to win?

[Gelion]

They give extra cbills, designed for those who are willing to put their money in. However, if you do not put any money into this, there is no disadvantage. Where is the pay2win? Tbh currently it is weight2win as generally the bigger the drop weight, the more likely that you will win.

[Thomas Covenant]

Gelion, on 30 May 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

They give extra cbills, designed for those who are willing to put their money in. However, if you do not put any money into this, there is no disadvantage. Where is the pay2win? Tbh currently it is weight2win as generally the bigger the drop weight, the more likely that you will win.

Extra cbills? You think hero mechs are just custom paint and extra cbills? No. They are unique weapons. Sometimes even having a whole category of weapon not presented on any of the others of it's type. The X-5 the only missile Cicada, Misery, the only ballistic Stalker. They are all unique and pay items.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 31 May 2013 - 12:10 AM.

[Gelion]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

Extra cbills? You think hero mechs are just custom paint and extra cbills? No.

They are also a unique variant, but does it give an advantage to people who pay against people who do not? My answer to that would be no. Yes their layouts are different, and yes again to the fact that I may be better in it than other variants, but will that keep anyone except for the most disturbed mind from slumber and claim that this game is pay2win? I sleep peacefully.

[Thomas Covenant]

I just ask the question are hero mechs pay to win. I found my answer. You may see the distinction as small. You might not some day. But maybe there is nothing stopping you from buying a variant you really like with money.

Edited by Thomas Covenant, 31 May 2013 - 12:30 AM.

[Thomas Covenant]

I think the point I'm making becomes clear once considered. I bring this forward because I think of it, or offer it as a challenge I believe the makers can rise up to. I believe it is within their power to figure it out while still being profitable. I don't doubt pgi. Why should I?

[Gelion]

So what is your solution? It creates no advantage, no gamebreaking variant balancing. It is simply an effective way to make money from people who are willing to spend it while leaving others who do not perfectly viable mechs which can compete.

[Thomas Covenant]

My point is that there is an advantage involved.

make the varient cbill available.
or since they are adding mc reward in game with community warefar, make it so anyone can get enough mc to buy one within a reasonable amount of time, perhaps a few months?

[Gelion]

Thomas Covenant, on 31 May 2013 - 12:55 AM, said:

My point is that there is an advantage involved.

But that is my point, there is no advantage involved. You choose to spend money, and are not penalised if you do not (ability to win/ do well).

[Jam the Bam]

So what I get from your argument:

Hero mechs are pay to win because they have a layout which may be the bestest loadout ever for a specific person but he will never know cos he's poor?

Deal with it, none of them give any particular advantage, just a different style of play.

[Ralgas]

A spear with a different head is still just a spear, no matter how unique it is......................


Does that make more sense?

[Thomas Covenant]

If, with a slight change a finer margin of error is attainable, why not strive for it?

Especially when it is such a noble goal?

"a game that is free but instead of 'pay' to win, 'play' to win(skill based). A game in which money only saves you time, but where only skill gives you an advantage, not wealth outside the game."

Its kind of like designing a model plane in a wind tunnel. I have found drag, wind disturbance, and I have offered some ways to change it, make it sleeker, better at what it was designed to do and be.

[MonkeyCheese]

So missile variant cicadas are a threat??

Quick build on smurfy with srm6s and medium lasers (going for alot of firepower) and usable heat dissipation and you know what? It goes 133kph with 38 firepower http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c2a6f4dd9c3051c

Jenners/commandos/ravens/trebs/cents 9d can do the same kind damage with 124kph and upwards and kill you just as fast and all are accessible to normal players. Some even have the benefits of ecm or jumpjets.

Another example, normal max speed/heatsink/ams deaths knell commando hero does 150kph with 4 medium lasers at 20 damage but my spider 5D does 19 damage with 5kph less with the added benefits of jumpjets and ecm.

How is a hero owner at a battlefield advantage again??

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 31 May 2013 - 01:12 AM.

[Thomas Covenant]

MonkeyCheese, on 31 May 2013 - 01:10 AM, said:

So missile variant cicadas are a threat??

Quick build on smurfy with srm6s and medium lasers (going for alot of firepower) and usable heat dissipation and you know what? It goes 133kph with 38 firepower http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c2a6f4dd9c3051c

Jenners/commandos/ravens/trebs/cents 9d can do the same kind damage with 124kph and upwards and kill you just as fast and all are accessible to normal players. Some even have the benefits of ecm or jumpjets.

Another example, normal max speed/heatsink/ams deaths knell commando hero does 150kph with 4 medium lasers as 20 damage but my spider 5D does 19 damage with 5kph less with the added benefits of jumpjets and ecm.

How is a hero owner at a battlefield advantage again??

It is not a question of the mech but the man.