1263 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Zyllos, on 11 June 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

The Flamer change is odd, in my mind. The weapon is for overheating, not dealing damage.

The flamer doesn't overheat anything, even standard heatsink mechs, due to the incredibly high heatsink thresholds.



I use them extremely often, but the only real use I ever get out of them is blinding people. When I asked for it to generate smoke too so I can get any real use out of them, I got shot down with "it's plasma." Plasma if I'm not mistaken, can coat a surface and continue burning.. So can I gush the enemy with 'plasma' then and have it continue to generate heat after I stop using it?

Edited by Koniving, 11 June 2013 - 03:36 PM.

[Lloathe]

This new heat penalty system is very close to where it needs to be. There are just a few big issues to deal with. Here are the problems with my suggested solutions:

1.Using canon boat mechs as the baseline is going to push the penalty threshold to high. Instead, set a lower threshold and use the chassi quirk system to handle the canon boats.

Suggestion: set the max with no penalty number of PPC's to two and medium lasers to four.

Example :  As a chassi quirk, the awesome 8Q and 9M would be allowed to alpha up to 3 PPC's without penalty. These mechs were specifically designed with the supporting systems requried to handle that much power. Negative quirks could be added if required.

Result: Mechs that, by cannon, can support weapon systems beyond these base settings will be allowed to use them at no penalty. Mechs that are adding weapons beyond that limit will be properly penalized if they attempt to alpha strike them. This system will work until the clans get here. I am looking at you Mr. Warhawk and Mr. Nova.

2. A system needs to be established to prevent players from using different, high pinpoint alpha weapons together to get around the penalty system. Currently, players would simply use two PPC's and a gauss rifle to completely bypass your system.

Suggestion: These weapons will be counted as identical for the heat penalties purpose:
PPC's, ER PPC's and gauss rifles
LL and ER LL
(More can be added to this list as is required. This covers the biggest culprits)
*For those who need the logic behind it: Gauss rifles require large amounts of energy, just like a PPC. Generating additional heat by drawing that much power on a mech unable to support it makes some sense in this fictional world with FTL and battle mechs.

Example: A common build is the Cataphract 3D with two ER PPC's and one guass rifle. Under the new system to be put in place, this build would completely bypass the penalties.

Result: With the reduction down to two PPC's with no penalty and the gauss being counted towards that number, this setup will result in a heat penalty. The entire point behind bringing the gauss on that setup is to limit heat generation and add more pinpoint alpha damage. This change would destroy the viability of that build and identical builds on other mechs.

These suggestions are brutal. However, the reality is that players will always look to exploit the system and you must be prepared to shut it down for the good of the game.

Edited by Lloathe, 11 June 2013 - 03:13 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Inkarnus, on 11 June 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

why are you so hatefull?
its the first steps on a way that very much can lead
to a far better gameing experience as now
and for what PGI said
that they dont want to much excessive
changes put in at a time
i support it since it will lead with
tweaks slowly to the path
we all want it going
and on a side note what
do you know wich changes
they already planned but
didnt release already
so this values seem
fine as a beginning step
to slowly let the player base
adapt to it and tweak from
there

we are
hateful because
this is an awful idea
that nobody at all wanted
and benefits the people
that they want to nerf and
why do you write
like this is
twitter
?

Lloathe, on 11 June 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

This new heat penalty system is very close to where it needs to be. There are just a few big issues to deal with. Here are the problems with my suggested solutions:

1.Using canon boat mechs as the baseline is going to push the penalty threshold to high. Instead, set a lower threshold and use the chassi quirk system to handle the canon boats.

Suggestion: set the max with no penalty number of PPC's to two and medium lasers to four.

Example : As a chassi quirk, the awesome 8Q and 9M would be allowed to alpha up to 3 PPC's without penalty. These mechs were specifically designed with the supporting systems requried to handle that much power. Negative quirks could be added if required.

Result: Mechs that, by cannon, can support weapon systems beyond these base settings will be allowed to use them at no penalty. Mechs that are adding weapons beyond that limit will be properly penalized if they attempt to alpha strike them. This system will work until the clans get here. I am looking at you Mr. Warhawk and Mr. Nova.

2. A system needs to be established to prevent players from using different, high pinpoint alpha weapons together to get around the penalty system. Currently, players would simply use two PPC's and a gauss rifle to completely bypass your system.

Suggestion: These weapons will be counted as identical for the heat penalties purpose:
PPC's, ER PPC's and gauss rifles
LL and ER LL
(More can be added to this list as is required. This covers the biggest culprits)
*For those who need the logic behind it: Gauss rifles require large amounts of energy, just like a PPC. Generating additional heat by drawing that much power on a mech unable to support it makes some sense in this fictional world with FTL and battle mechs.

Example: A common build is the Cataphract 3D with two ER PPC's and one guass rifle. Under the new system to be put in place, this build would completely bypass the penalties.

Result: With the reduction down to two PPC's with no penalty and the gauss being counted towards that number, this setup will result in a heat penalty. The entire point behind bringing the gauss on that setup is to limit heat generation and add more pinpoint alpha damage. This change would destroy the viability of that build and identical builds on other mechs.

These suggestions are brutal. However, the reality is that players will always look to exploit the system and you must be prepared to shut it down for the good of the game.

We could just drop overall team weight so not everyone is capable of carrying enough guns to melt a light in one strike, you know?

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 June 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

HRR Insanity, on 11 June 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Yeah, your opinions on the topic of weapon spread are well known. Do you have an alternative proposal to deal with the underlying issue?

If not...

I actually prefer Homeless Bills well thought out post, that would solve boating issues, and alpha striking to some acceptable degree without the need for PGI's system.

It was rather creative to boot.

Requires no CoF, or RNG aspects.

Edited by DV McKenna, 11 June 2013 - 03:17 PM.

[Victor Morson]

To be entirely honest at this point I would take global gun-based reticule cones, if this is going to be the alternative. And I really hated that idea.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Any plans to fix the multiple LRM bugs currently in the game? From the helpful Artemis on at all times, to this broken flight path? Or the missiles that come down at a straight angle and miss moving targets?

Also is HSR ever going to effect LRM's?

Also your boating heat penalty is overly complicated and the heat threshold should be 100%-125% for damage. You should never really WANT to overheat and shutdown unless the situation is dire.

It's a bad game mechanic.

[Koniving]

This was something I came up with a while ago when I learned that tabletop heat thresholds do not increase with additional heatsinks. It's sinking only. That's it. Explains a bit about why "heat is no longer an issue with double heatsinks" and so "we brought them down to 1.4 sinks." Gee! No wonder!

Anyway, this throws up a bit of math based on what is known about heatsinks and doubles and how the equations work, as well as ideas for how to fix the problem at its source in a way that it cannot possibly be circumvented by notions such as "Oh I'll just equip two standard and two ER PPCs, or a Gauss and 3 PPCs." It's also got an idea on how to make standard heatsinks more viable without diminishing the double heatsink (as well as allow them to be true doubles).

This also, in theory, would diminish the 6 PPC issue and reduce numerous other boating issues simply because the heat threshold would never be more than say a set amount (such as 10 double heatsinks' threshold, no matter how many heatsinks you have).

Koniving, on 07 June 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Well the heat threshold I've been advocating for might actually make trial mechs much more viable. Consider this and remember that we're using an example number for simplicity:

Fact. On MWO for every heatsink you add, you increase both your heat dissipation rate (cooling power) and your heat threshold (maximum heat you can take at once).

Fact. STD heatsinks increase both dissipation and threshold by a set amount. "Double" (1.4) heatsinks increase this by 1.4* the set amount. True double heatsinks in the engine increase this by 2.0 times the amount.

Fact. The mathematical formulas forthcoming are used by the game. But the amount of 'dissipation' and the amount of 'threshold' are going to be simplified since I don't know the actual numbers.

Let's say that the "amount" is 5 points dissipation, 10 points threshold for the sake of simplicity.

• 1 STD heatsink = 5 points dissipation, 10 points threshold.
  
• 1.4 "double" heatsink = 5*1.4 = 7 points dissipation, 10*1.4 = 14 points threshold.
  
• 1 True Double Engine heatsink = 10*2 = 10 points dissipation, 10*2 = 20 points threshold.

Seems fair, right?

• 10 STD heatsinks = 50 points cooling with 100 points heat threshold. Seems fair, right?
  
• 6 TDE heatsinks + 4 "1.4" DHS = 88 points cooling, 176 threshold.
  
• 10 TDE heatsinks = 100 cooling, 200 threshold.

Wait, we only have 10 heatsinks in all 3 cases!




What happens if we stuff as many as can be done with a standard 275 engine in terms of double heatsinks!

• 40 STD heatsinks = 200 cooling and 400 threshold. Build.
  
• 11 TDE + 11 "1.4" DHS = 187 cooling and 374 threshold. Build.

It's true, we just found one situation where standard heatsinks are better, but talk about a huge tonnage cost for it! This is starting to get insane!




-------------

Seen this several times in many matches:

6 ER PPC stalker shoots twice, starts back up and shoots again. Waits 3 seconds. Starts up shoots again. That's 60 damage and (since PPCs wait 4 seconds) 60 damage (shutdown, wait 3 seconds, takes 1 second to start up) 60 damage.

That's 180 damage down the line in 12 seconds. Tabletop turn is 10 seconds; essentially the MWO stalker has annihilated 3 tabletop Atlases in a single turn and will only need to sit there for another 6 or so seconds to cool back to zero.
---------------
We're going to create a Stalker with an XL 340 engine, 19 TRUE DHS, and 6 STD PPCs (much lower heat) in Megamek (digital Tabletop) to see how this works. Summary.

• Stalker fires 6 PPCs. Generates 60 heat. Sinks 38 heat, increases heat to 22 (of a 30 point cap).
  
• Mech shuts down for 2 seconds.
  
• Piloting skill roll failed. Mech falls over. Receives damage. Pilot himself gets injured. Stays conscious.

Megamek's detailed responses:

Spoiler

Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) gains 60 heat, sinks 38 heat and is now at 22 heat.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) needs a 8+ to avoid shutdown, rolls 7 : shuts down.

Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (reactor shutdown).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 3 (reactor shutdown)); needs 8, rolls 6 : falls.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) falls on its front, suffering 9 damage.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) takes 5 damage to LL.
1 Armor remaining.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) takes 4 damage to CT.
9 Armor remaining.


Pilot of Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) "Ed Richa" must roll 8 to avoid damage; rolls 7 : fails.

Pilot of Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) "Ed Richa" takes 1 damage.
Pilot of Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk I (Lordred) "Ed Richa" needs a 3 to stay conscious. Rolls 10 : successful!

Note that standard PPCs in Tabletop is 10 heat per PPC. MWO PPCs is 8 heat. TT heat threshold is 30, though the sinking is instant. 60 heat, sinks 38, gains 22. That's 73.33% heat and he got a premature shutdown.

Now with ER PPCs the same Stalker in a different test.
Summary:

• Stalker fires 6 ER PPCs. Generates 92 heat. Sinks 38 heat, increases heat to 54.
  
• Mech shuts down for 7 seconds minimum before turning back on; would then still be at 90%.
  
• Mech falls over. Receives damage. Pilot himself gets injured. Stays conscious in this test (usually he's knocked out).
  
• Spends rest of second turn getting up.

This time the guy lucked out, typically in these tests the pilot loses consciousness and loses a turn or two (10 to 20 seconds of being stationary on its side).




Megamek's details.

Spoiler

Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) gains 92 heat, sinks 38 heat and is now at 54 heat.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) automatically shuts down.

Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) must make 1 piloting skill roll(s) (reactor shutdown).
The base target is 5 [5 (Base piloting skill)].
Roll #1, (5 (Base piloting skill) + 3 (reactor shutdown)); needs 8, rolls 7 : falls.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) falls on its left side, suffering 9 damage.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) takes 5 damage to LL.
1 Armor remaining.
Stalker STK-3F PPC Mk II (Lordred) takes 4 damage to LT.
5 Armor remaining.
(Since the target was completely annihilated, the testing match was over.)

What if instead...

• 1 STD heatsink = 1*X points cooling. No increase in threshold.
  
• 1 DHS = 2*X points cooling. No increase to threshold.
  
• If you have STD heatsinks, you get Y threshold.
  
• If you have DHS, you get 1/2*Y or 3/4*Y threshold.
  
• But since you get double cooling, DHS is still superior.
  
• Yet, because of the higher threshold with STD heatsinks, there's a practical reason to use them if you favor high alpha builds and want to use them without shutting down on the first shot; it'll just take you a LOT longer to cool down.
  
• Alpha builds have a lot more risk to them (namely they have a risk of shutting down in a single strike and a second strike will keep them shut down for quite a bit), but still yield the same rewards. A large number of them will phase out. The ones who still use them will treat it as a "challenge."
  
• We just balanced a crapload of builds and changed the meta to more balanced (or at least lower heat) builds.

I figured it'd be worth trying to throw it here in hopes it gets noticed by a Dev or at least Paul.

TL;DR
Note the main idea is for a threshold for Heatsinks! No rising cap; that's the root of most of the problems we have. Heat management is practically non-existent.

Setting weapon "thresholds" for firing at the same time isn't a bad idea, but it skirts around the real problem and is easy enough to overcome with minimal risk. The main issue is how much you can get away with in heat and the incredible precision of weaponry.

Other ideas mentioned in the past include a manual convergence -- though this is a pain. Others mention an area of effect for PPCs (they're not typically an accurate weapon anyway) or perhaps allocating the damage into splash.

(Splash)

Spoiler

Speaking of splash, missile splash damage's problem is that the splash is on top of actual damage. Splash should be a division of damage as a whole. For example you hit the RT, splash goes to CT and RA. Welp 2.5 spread across three points is 0.833333 damage to each of the 3 body parts affected. A genuine 2.5 damage.

So back to the PPC thing, say it hits you and the energy and heat 'splashes'. Same scenario generates 3.333333 damage on all 3 body parts.

Don't forget, if we chainfire our weapons, we can still do this so to speak.

Edited by Koniving, 11 June 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[HRR Insanity]

DV McKenna, on 11 June 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

I actually prefer Homeless Bills well thought out post, that would solve boating issues, and alpha striking to some acceptable degree without the need for PGI's system.

It was rather creative to boot.

Requires no CoF, or RNG aspects.

Homeless's post describes a detailed implementation of exactly what I was proposing. The only difference is that he hypothesizes the 'targetting computer' as a limitation and gives individual weapons different impacts on the cone of fire.

All of those ideas are very reasonable modifications to, what is fundamentally, a cone of fire.

[Victor Morson]

The thing that gets me is people get hit by medium alpha strikes all the time and nobody complains.

So they nerf medium alpha strikes primarily, all to get at one chassis that they could just assign a quirk to.

I'm gonna go get some food before my head explodes. My God.

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 June 2013 - 03:23 PM.

[Fitzbattleaxe]

As much as I dislike high alpha builds, the arbitrary heat penalties don't feel like the right way to go. They don't really make sense from a "what's the in-universe explanation" standpoint, and without a complicated set of equivalences, it won't handle mixing different weapons with similar ranges and firing speeds that could be equally effective as pinpoint, high-alpha loadouts.

Lower the heat overall heat capacity. As far as I know, no other MW has had this increased heat-cap mechanic, and they've all worked perfectly fine. Having damage after 150% capacity is a step in the right direction, but I can't think of any build I've ever run that would ever reach that level unless I was deliberate trying to blow myself up. Lower the damage level to 125% capacity, and have negative affects such as decreased speed and HUD glitches for heat above 80%.

[TheForce]

this is a step in the right direction. i don't think .5 seconds is long enough though.

[Caviel]

Tor6, on 11 June 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Capping heat capacity at 30 (which ALL mechwarrior games to date have done unless I'm mistaken) would make high heat high alpha builds like 4+ ppcs nonviable because they've instantly overheat on firing.

Yes, all mechs have a 30 heat point max, although it is calculated at the end of the round, not in real time like MW:O. For the TT it is Heat generated - heat dissipated + Residual heat from previous round = current heat.

MW:O diverges from the TT in the fact that heat sinks still work on the 1 single heat sink dissipates 1 heat over 10 seconds, although cycle times for weapons are faster than 10 seconds for all weapons. In other words, we can build up heat faster in MW:O than it is possible to do in the TT ruleset. Additional heat sinks also grant a higher top heat threshold which the TT doesn't do at all.

Quote

Also what is so hard about simply putting the PPCs heat back where it was supposed to be in the first place? The only reason it got a buff in the first place was because it was borked and you couldn't hit anything with it. Now that its working properly it badly needs its heat put back at 10 because as it is its better than most other weapons in the game at everything.

It's a start, although it doesn't fix boating Gauss Rifles or "AC/40" mechs.

Quote

Finally I think the boating penalty thing is a terrible idea. It's totally unintuitive and won't even stop most of the high pinpoint alpha builds out there.

Agreed. Right problem, wrong solution.

dyndragon, on 11 June 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

I'm aware of TT rules, and I believe it was said before that the TT rules for heat penalties were too complicated.

I don't get this argument at all (Not saying you agree with it). As your heat approaches 30 in the TT, your mech slows, your aim lowers, you have a greater chance to cook off internal ammo, and/or shut down completely. There was no damage component unless your internal ammo blows, and you could go as high above 30 as you wanted, you just took a long time to start up again. It isn't that complicated...

As your heat goes closer to 100%, start implementing top speed/turning/arm movement/torso twist speed penalties, aiming penalties (You miss the reticle), and chances of ammo explosions. For added flair, add pilot effects like blurred vision or steam effects/water vapor. Yea, that bag of weapons boat might get one accurate shot off, that's going to be about it for the 10-15 seconds it takes to cool back down again if it lives that long.

[Otto Cannon]

I think treating a symptom of the convergence problem by applying heat penalties is a terrible mistake. As long as groupfired weapons hit the same spot people will use multiple weapons together. All this will do is make people choose slightly different ways to do the same thing. Also streaks will be killed off as a viable weapon until ssrm6 are available now that they spread a laughably small amount of damage across the limbs of your target.

[Kaio-Kerensky x10]

This was posted elsewhere by Victor Morson.

Quote

So, let me count the horrible, horrible ways that this is the single worst idea for a reactive low-ELO nerf in the entire game. I know a lot of you are already likely jumping to say what a glorious day this is, but if you are, you don't understand why "High alpha builds" were a problem in the first place.

- First and foremost: This punishes small 'mechs. If you bought a BJ-1X get ready to throw it in the trash, because the limit on numbers of guns will absolutely wreck it. This and other 'mechs were designed to boat large arrays of lasers, so forcing them to stagger that fire out will absolutely, positively kick light and medium pilots in the balls again.

- Most high alpha builds don't carry many guns anyway! Everyone rambles about the 6 PPC Stalker, which is clearly far worse than the 4 PPC Stalker. This will punish the bad build and not punish the good one; likewise the most common setup is 2 PPC, 1 Gauss, which this will not even impact. That's because small numbers of big guns are better at heavy damage, high focus hits than large numbers of small guns a lot of the time!

- This won't stop synergy. I've said it before, and I will say it again: If you cap how many of X weapon I can effectively run, I will simply run Y and Z that have similar firing characteristics. Stop me from running 3 PPCs and I'll run 2 PPCs and a Gauss; maybe 2 PPCs and 2 Gauss, 'mech depending. Stop me from running 5 Large Lasers and I'll run 4 and an ER Large. No matter how much you smash this, it will never stop it.

- Goodbye, Secondary Guns. Does your 'mech have backup weapons? Lasers or streaks in case they close the distance? Well if you pop those 3-4 backup guns, you're going to take a huge heat penalty now, despite the fact they likely carry less than a tenth of your firepower. I know I'm not going to want to eat surges of heat for firing a bank of small lasers.

- That's the whole point to some variants! In addition to the light variants that are damaged, but what about 'mechs like the Catapult A1? You've effectively rendered the 'mech worthless. What about a less popular example, the Awesome 8Q? No more PPC builds for that! Good thing nobody is using that laserboat Hunchback, too, because that's going to be a joke now.

- This won't stop the true problem. The reason "high alpha builds" have become such a subject of ire (among the non-frankenmech crowd even) has absolutely nothing to do with the number of guns being boated. It is almost exclusively because of a lack of weight restrictions in the game (Which was one of the longest running pre-beta threads on the MW:O forums, mind you, so I can't say some of us didn't see it coming) resulting in every single person driving a Stalker or Highlander.

- Twin Gauss is Coming. Sure the Jagger and K2 can do so, but they're fragile. The 4X can do it but it's slow. Around the corner is the Victor, that can likely sport 2x Gauss and PPCs. By attacking builds running more than one PPC, all you will do is force everyone here next. Again, alpha strikes are not the underlying problem!

The problem: Guess what, no matter what you do to alpha strikes or weapon arrays this won't make the problem go away. As long as 85-90 ton 'mechs are allowed to be the majority on the field, they will ALL hit so hard you will be unable to pilot anything else!

-

Please PGI, do not go this route. I know you login to the forums and see a million angry threads about alpha strikes and want to give your casual players what they want, but the problem is they honestly do not know what they want, if they're blaming that. They're blaming the very most superficial thing, firing multiples of the same gun, and not thinking through any of the other ramifications.

Do not throw lights and mediums under the bus here, in particular 'mechs designed for that very purpose.

-

So what do we really need?

Weight Restrictions. If everyone isn't driving a heavy or assault and mediums are pushed into the mix, 99% of this will go away overnight. I've heard lobbies might be apart of UI2.0 and my God I hope they are. Sacrificing over half your game content on the altar of a quick match button is not working out. I don't mind if there's a no restriction lobby, though!

More heat effects. I've always been a big fan of organically adding heat effects. If heat slowed your 'mech down more at higher levels, it would make a big difference and people may manage their high-heat builds accordingly. This alpha-nerf system on the other hand will not.

Most of all, a wider look at this and other issues. When the forums light up angry about a specific element, I think it's proven disastrous time and time again to just react directly to it (with a few exceptions, such as the consumable roll out plan) rather than facing the underlying causes. Everyone complains high alpha builds pretty much because some TT-Frakenmech players have screamed it loud enough that newbies who are tired of being cored by Assault 'Mechs that are running a few really big guns have chimed in.

As I've pointed out before, however, most of the good alpha builds aren't even running very many guns. At all. 3-4 tops - the NUMBER of guns has absolutely nothing to do with the problem. It's because, in general a small number of really big guns is better than a larger number of smaller guns if you have the weight to run it.

In Conclusion

Effectively this reactive concept is flawed from it's very conception. It's punishing the wrong 'mechs and doing nothing about the issues that are actually frustrating people.

I'd like to ask you this: What is this going to solve? Will it solve the upcoming Victor running 2x Gauss and 2x PPC? Probably not. Will it solve Highlanders running a Gauss and 2 PPCs? Almost certainly not. What about 1 Gauss and 3 PPCs? That still works...

... is this really to solve one 4+ PPC Stalker that's not very good anyway? Is it specifically designed to be anti-4 PPC, when that's not more effective than the other builds listed above?

Will this solve the fact that if everyone's in an assault, they'll all have massive damage output no matter what we do until they are made the minority?

If the answer is no, what is this going to solve?

It's a good and smart post.

[ratgoat]

Sounds pretty good all in all.

However, please don't sit on a buff for SRMs for too long this meta could really use good SRM brawlers.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

HRR Insanity, on 11 June 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Homeless's post describes a detailed implementation of exactly what I was proposing. The only difference is that he hypothesizes the 'targetting computer' as a limitation and gives individual weapons different impacts on the cone of fire.

All of those ideas are very reasonable modifications to, what is fundamentally, a cone of fire.

What he proposed was an energy system in effect.
As long as you remain within that energy system CoF does not effect you.

The choice for it is completely in the players hands, and moves alpha striking into oh crap moments.

This is much better than a permanent CoF based on movement and heat, which IMO promotes more static gameplay.

[Darius Deadeye]

Victor Morson, on 11 June 2013 - 03:22 PM, said:

The thing that gets me is people get hit by medium alpha strikes all the time and nobody complains.

So they nerf medium alpha strikes primarily, all to get at one chassis that they could just assign a quirk to.

I'm gonna go get some food before my head explodes. My God.

I've seen so many posts like this in this thread, and I don't get it.

They come up with a pretty functional plan to deal with excessive boating that doesn't just cover PPC's.

You can still fire 6 mlas at the same time - no penalty. You can still BOAT 9 mlas, but the last 3, you fire at 0,5 second delay.

I don't see the issue. Is there even an issue? No. We will probably just see less extreme alpha'ing all across the board.

Better yet, less alpha'ing in total. Alpha'ing shoulnd't be normal execution, but an exception.

[AgroAlba]

Kitane, on 11 June 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

1) Treat ER PPC and PPCs as a one type of weapon, ER LL and LL too.

2) Set the PPC limit to 2, 3 PPC + Gauss builds should already be affected by a penalty.

3) AC20 should be limited to one, with a significant heat penalty for firing two at once.

4) 150% heat limit is not going to have any noticeable effect on the game. Most builds will never get that high even if they tried.

Yes to these suggested changes, please.

[Thunderchickenz]

Sorry, but I'm struggling to see what problems this is hoping to address.

S-SRM's: This seems a bit extreme. I disagree that SSRM's are significantly OP; they're essentially dedicated light defense, so I don't think being good at that makes them unbalanced. Sure they maybe do a tad too much / focused damage, but not by much. Besides, unskilled lights that simply orbit at max speed are already way too time consuming and difficult to kill.

Flamers and Machine Guns: Yay.

Pulse Lasers: Already a niche item given the extra weight and reduced range, the only real reason to take an LPL was it's heat efficiency; that's no longer the case. A reasonably skilled pilot won't generally find the 25% shorter fire time to be a significant plus. An improvement on SPL, though they still do less damage per heat than SL and aren't improved enough to justify the extremely short range.

Heat Damage at High Heat Levels: Sure, why not. Doesn't actually address any real issues; if someone is overheating by that much they're being pressured and will have to spend enough time powered down that a failure to kill the target will likely result in death anyways. Less of the exciting 'from hell's heart I stab at thee' last ditch gameplay, but a little more pain for noobs.

Heat Penalty: I'm curious what actual problem this is supposed to deal with. 'Boating' isn't a problem, overpowered builds that come from it are the problem. This is an indication of an underlying gameplay or weapon imbalance; these are the issues that should be addressed. Arbitrary limits like this are just annoying, add micro to the pilots without increasing fun, and do nothing to address the root issue.

I assume it's not intended to, but this does nothing to address the current metagame problems of alpha strike being overpowered. It may push people away from 4+ PPC builds into the PPC/Gauss combo, but these were less effective alpha builds anyways. If anything, it makes it worse as the swayback or LL build brawlers and LRM boats are now an even worse counter.

All in all, these suggestions look to make the game less fun while not effectively addressing any of the current issues. My alternate suggestions would be:

• fix hit detection
  
• Make ERPPC's not the best sniping weapon in the game (eg: change to splash damage, add other effects at the expense of pinpoint damage)
  
• Give sniper combos a disadvantage in brawls (this may not be necessary if you change PPC's)
  
• Figure out what niche you want SL to fit into. 'Worse Medium' is not good.
  
• Introduce group weight (or BV) limitations (eg: Dropship)
  
• Discourage blobbing (eg: knockdown, weapons with low damage but huge splash / effect range) to get a wider engagement range and varied weapon loadouts

Edited by Thunderchickenz, 11 June 2013 - 03:38 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

If you use damage instead of # of weapons you can easily cap damage at 20 damage every .5 seconds. Any mech shooting out more than 20 damage per .5 seconds incurs a heat penalty equal to the amount of damage over the 20 base damage.

At a glance you can then see just by looking at your "firepower" how much extra heat your mech will build if you do not pace it properly, and know exactly how much more heat an alpha strike wor big hit will cost you in terms of heat.

this creates a simple easy to understand system that gives a benefit and disadvantage to firing more than 20 damage out per single shot.

you could then gives mechs like the awesome quirks like "fire an extra 10 damage with PPC only without incurring a further heat penalty"

in example.

simple, easy, workable, achieves the desired result. also will help with clan tech in the future.