1084 replies to this topic

[GaussDragon]

There's a really good post buried in this thread, it should get 'liked' more.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2557345

[BlueSanta]

BlueSanta, on 15 July 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Paul, can you please let us know if the SSRM targeting fix will be in place in tomorrow's patch so that 2.0 damage SSRMs aren't coring the **** out of people?

Also, can you please let us know if you're planning on taking the wallhack out of the game so that brawlers can actually sneak up on their targets with their shiny new SRMs?

In testing for the 30th patch:

Seismic Sensor Ranges are being adjusted. Current values are 180m for basic and 250m for advanced. This is down from 200m and 400m respectively.

Thank you for this reply, Paul, but please let us know about SSRM targeting as well. The coring is already bad enough at 1.5 damage.

[Deathlike]

BlueSanta, on 15 July 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Thank you for this reply, Paul, but please let us know about SSRM targeting as well. The coring is already bad enough at 1.5 damage.

Well, I'm posting in this thread with direct quotes from Paul+Bryan so that they actually do the stuff that they promised.

It's kinda close to a certain PGI policy, except the difference is that it brings to light what has been kept underground for so long through mismanagement and burying said posts.

Edited by Deathlike, 15 July 2013 - 05:37 PM.

[Gwaihir]

GaussDragon, on 15 July 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

There's a really good post buried in this thread, it should get 'liked' more.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2557345

Brofist charts best charts.

Also whoring out my own post some more. It's as LEAST as good as brofist's "How to MWO" diagram!
http://mwomercs.com/...71#entry2552571

Edited by Gwaihir, 15 July 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[GaussDragon]

Gwaihir, on 15 July 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Brofist charts best charts.

Also whoring out my own post some more. It's as LEAST as good as brofist's "How to MWO" diagram!
http://mwomercs.com/...71#entry2552571

They both deserve popularity stars. I must commend the Goons on their :effort: drive to help pummel some sense into those that need ir (there are many who need it).

Also, I saw that 'like' Wales Grey, don't be a Rannosindian giver.

[Gwaihir]

You can have my likes any day Gaussdragon.

[SICk Nick]

wow there's a lot of posts on here. SSRM and SRM 2.0 YES. That makes them like the TT. I like. good. cool.
As for the heat mechanic...let's wait and see how it works. I think the Awesome should have the ability to fire 3 PPCs tho. Thats what makes it... awesome.

As far as damage over 100%....hmmm....maybe like 110%...100% is where the mech should shut down for safety.

But for me personally, even on TT, I have always designed my mechs for heat efficiency anyways. I'm always more for the sustained over burst damage kindof strategy. I like to pound you in the face and not have to worry about shutting down. then when YOU shut down I get my free licks in and get behind you. So for me the heat mechanic is not a big deal.

Edited by SICk Nick, 15 July 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Deathlike, on 15 July 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

So... what about LPL? How about unnerfing them? You had a month of data gathering to confirm what we already knew (it's a terrible nerf).

Check my Fixed It thread in my sig. I was able to adjust it in 30 seconds. 30 literal seconds.

BlueSanta, on 15 July 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Seismic Sensor Ranges are being adjusted. Current values are 180m for basic and 250m for advanced. This is down from 200m and 400m respectively.

The sad part is literally five or six people have put up polls all WILDLY successful to make Seismic weight class dependent instead of a straight nerf, so the smaller your 'mech, the shorter the range. i.e. Assault = 400, Heavy = 300, Medium = 200, Light = 100, etc.

There's more creative solutions than ripping out your nerf bat all the time PGI.

[hammerreborn]

Victor Morson, on 15 July 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

Check my Fixed It thread in my sig. I was able to adjust it in 30 seconds. 30 literal seconds.



The sad part is literally five or six people have put up polls all WILDLY successful to make Seismic weight class dependent instead of a straight nerf, so the smaller your 'mech, the shorter the range. i.e. Assault = 400, Heavy = 300, Medium = 200, Light = 100, etc.

There's more creative solutions than ripping out your nerf bat all the time PGI.

Arguments against heat scale...

KISS PGI JEEZ I fixed all these values in an hour with random numbers I pulled out of my ***.

Arguments against a simple nerf to seismic...

WHY NO COMPLICATED SOLUTION PGI!!!!!

[WolvesX]

I'm going to start this off by telling you guys a little something about me. On of the First PC games I ever played as a kid was Mechwarrior 2: mercenaries. I just got a computer with windows 95 and my friends told me the two games to have were MW2 and Warcraft. I loved both games dearly. Sure I was 12 and I had no clue what made game balance good but I remember how the graphics blew me away. Everything was so different compared to what I was used used to with my SNES, when I played i was immersed in that game, it was a new world to me and I loved it. I loved Warcraft too, but thats a different story.

I'm here now, loving the nostalgia value of this game. I'm 30, and this game makes me happy because it lets me have the same sense awe and wonder i felt when I was a child. But I'm an adult now so I understand game balance. Paul's heat system is not balance, it will fix nothing people will either flat out ignore it and boat anyways or find new ways to abuse the meta. It will make the new player experience even more brutal, and this game is already hard on newbies.

I dropped cash on Project Phoenix, Because I do love this game. I have massive amounts of respect for the founders because they got the game off the ground.

Here is why I believe Paul's System could very well KILL this game.

1. New players aren't going to understand why they get heat penalties for firing more than X amount of weapon Y at a time. Some mechs come stock that will be punished by the system, and new players are going to go through a new level of hell because of it. A new player will see a black jack with 8 medium lasers and think, "hey they seems cool!" not knowing how Paul's Folly will torture them.

2. It only shifts the meta it does not fix it. Many people have pointed out how this doesn't do anything to adress mechs with double ppc and Gauss. Sure Quad PPC stalkers might become rare, but this brings in the ppc/gauss bread and butter combo into the fray in greater numbers. A Far more simple middle finger to PPC snipers is to slow down the projectile and raise the heat, a simple de-buff. Restoring the projectile speed and heat to where it was before the buff lets the ppc be a respectable weapon with out being the Wrath of Thor himself.

3. Some builds don't need to be fixed. 8ml Blackjacks and Swaybacks aren't even close to OP. ML boats are incredibly average and aren't even close to wrecking the meta. LRM boats aren't OP either, the second you get in their face they're as weak as a little girl, ecm shuts them down, you can dodge lrms, cover works wonders. Also a splash bug is what made srm cats nasty not boating, now they'll run into the same problem Jagerbombs and all brawlers/ skirmishers face, Siesmic makes your job harder.

So TL;DR version. I love Mechwarrior, but Paul's Folly is going to cause severe amounts of damage to the game.

BUT I THINK NO ONE OF THE DEVS WILL EVER READ THIS SADLY.

[Mr Mantis]

I love the idea of the limitation on boating. The way they limit the individual weapons will need to be tweaked, the post said they will. This will make the game much more strategic in design of boats but it would just be a mixed boat. Fortunately a mixed boat is much worse than the current ones in play, as well as most chassis are not fitted well for it.

I would much rather play a thinking mans game with no boats than a full fledged brawl of them, but that must be solely me.

Patiently waiting for my Flea, this could take a long time.

[Gulinborsti]

How about giving PGI a chance to fix their game instead of whining about a feature that noone has seen in work so far?
Remember ECM? It was terrible when it was released but after some tweaks and patches (which took maybe a bit too long) it's nice and enjoyable today.

WolvesX, on 15 July 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

1. New players aren't going to understand why they get heat penalties for firing more than X amount of weapon Y at a time. Some mechs come stock that will be punished by the system, and new players are going to go through a new level of hell because of it. A new player will see a black jack with 8 medium lasers and think, "hey they seems cool!" not knowing how Paul's Folly will torture them.

New players in stock mechs are already tortured. With the improved heat penalties they will only build a better awareness for the heat system.

WolvesX, on 15 July 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

2. It only shifts the meta it does not fix it. Many people have pointed out how this doesn't do anything to adress mechs with double ppc and Gauss. Sure Quad PPC stalkers might become rare, but this brings in the ppc/gauss bread and butter combo into the fray in greater numbers. A Far more simple middle finger to PPC snipers is to slow down the projectile and raise the heat, a simple de-buff. Restoring the projectile speed and heat to where it was before the buff lets the ppc be a respectable weapon with out being the Wrath of Thor himself.

The PPC itself is a fine weapon and feels viable. I don't see any reason to screw the weapon and nerf it back to it's useless state.
As you point out yourself, this change is about to address extensive boating of various weapons. Some powerfull combos will stay powerfull but just not that OP and gamebreaking.

WolvesX, on 15 July 2013 - 11:03 PM, said:

3. Some builds don't need to be fixed. 8ml Blackjacks and Swaybacks aren't even close to OP. ML boats are incredibly average and aren't even close to wrecking the meta. LRM boats aren't OP either, the second you get in their face they're as weak as a little girl, ecm shuts them down, you can dodge lrms, cover works wonders. Also a splash bug is what made srm cats nasty not boating, now they'll run into the same problem Jagerbombs and all brawlers/ skirmishers face, Siesmic makes your job harder.

I agree that the system will need serious tweaking over the next weeks as there are combos and mechs that for sure don't deserve being crippled by the heat penalties. But I am sure that PGI will closely observe the mechanics and given time this system actually might work.

I am eagerly awaiting the 16th and 30th patches. It's a bit weird that they didn't get the PPC/ERPPC problem addressed in today's patch but I think we can endure this madness two more weeks.

Let's try this stuff before we get all negative about it...

[Victor Morson]

Gulinborsti, on 16 July 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

How about giving PGI a chance to fix their game instead of whining about a feature that noone has seen in work so far?

Two reasons: My 2012 thread and my Fix It thread.

Translation: It's been a year and a lot of the problems are literal 30 second fixes. It's inexcusable.

Gulinborsti, on 16 July 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

Remember ECM? It was terrible when it was released but after some tweaks and patches (which took maybe a bit too long) it's nice and enjoyable today.

Not really. It's still an annoying binary system that adds nothing to the promised "Information Warfare" pillar, it's just gimped now.

Gulinborsti, on 16 July 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

New players in stock mechs are already tortured. With the improved heat penalties they will only build a better awareness for the heat system.

"We're really going to torture the new guys now, so they understand our insane systems! Wait a second, why is everyone leaving??"

Gulinborsti, on 16 July 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

The PPC itself is a fine weapon and feels viable. I don't see any reason to screw the weapon and nerf it back to it's useless state.

It needs a recycle nerf. Infighting weapons in general need a higher ROF. Otherwise there's no point in them.

Gulinborsti, on 16 July 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

As you point out yourself, this change is about to address extensive boating of various weapons. Some powerfull combos will stay powerfull but just not that OP and gamebreaking.

The change does very little to my Gauss + 3 PPC Highlander. The change destroys swaybacks and BJ-1Xs.

Good job!

Gulinborsti, on 16 July 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

I agree that the system will need serious tweaking over the next weeks as there are combos and mechs that for sure don't deserve being crippled by the heat penalties. But I am sure that PGI will closely observe the mechanics and given time this system actually might work.

After a year of failing to fix problems we predicted before we even saw the game, why are you sure of this?

Gulinborsti, on 16 July 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

I am eagerly awaiting the 16th and 30th patches. It's a bit weird that they didn't get the PPC/ERPPC problem addressed in today's patch but I think we can endure this madness two more weeks.

I am dreading the next completely random way they try to fix this.

Paul uses like, old school Space Quest style adventure game logic. Absolutely nothing can be directly fixed, only massive off-target systems created.

Gulinborsti, on 16 July 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

Let's try this stuff before we get all negative about it...

Let's not. Again, read my 2012 thread. It's not like we suck at predicting fail.

[Gulinborsti]

Well, I read the threads you mentioned.

I only agree in one point: It usually takes very long for PGI to fix things that are obviously broken or unbalanced.

But every feature they implemented turned out to be well planned ahead and finally - after a lot of strange tweaking in every possible direction - turn out to be working fine. It worked for ECM, it will work for the movement changes and I think that their plans to remove certain boating issues with the improved heat mechhanics might turn out to be good decision.

It is not us to decide how things will work in MWO, however, it is our responsibility as beta players to provide constructive feedback on every step PGI makes once it's introduced.

[MustrumRidcully]

Why boating rocks in M:WO (many reasons also apply to earlier MW titles):

1 - Convergence + Group Fire
Group FIre means firing all weapons in one group with a single press of a button.
Convergence means that all these weapons hit the same spot.
You can do this best if you boat weapons, because boats have all weapons on the same cycle speed (so all weapons are ready at the same moment in time if fired together), all have the same range, and all have the same flight characteristic (projectile speed and all).
Firing a single shot for 40 damage every 4 seconds is inherently easier and advantageous over firing 4 shots over 4 seconds to deal 40 damage total. You have a guarantee that if you hit, all the damage goes to one hit location (important in a hit location based system). And youc an spend the time between aiming and shooting torso twisting or going in and out of cover, overall giving you a defense advantage in addition to an offense advantage.

Without group fire, the precision advantage on offense and the defensive advantages don't exist.
Without convergence, the precision advantage turns into an imprecision drawback - if you fire your boated guns together, you are guaranteed to not hit the same spot with all your weapons. To get at least some precision back, you have to sacrifice the defensive advantage and switch from group-fire to chain-fire.

Boating is theoretically not the only way to get this perk, but in practice, you won't find many weapons that are identical in all the necessary attributes for this to work.

2 - Convenience of Recycle Times
If you boat weapons, they all have the same recycle time. THis is an advantage even if you could not group fire, since you can create a memorizable weapon rotation of shots.

Boating is not the only way to get this perk, but it is a guaranteed way to get it.

3 - Specialization Trumps Versatility
This is a common phenomena in most games, and even though Battletech stock mechs often pretend it isn't true, in practice it usually is.
If you specialize on long range weapons, you will generally need to bring more weight for the same damage output than a shorter range weapon delivers. (Like a PPC is 7 tons to deal 10 damage at 540m, while two MLs give you 10 damage at 270m for 2 tons.) But at long range, those close range guys are helpless against you as long as you stay away. If you fight a versatile mech, some of its firepower will be short ranged, and be useless against you. If in turn you use a short range mech, and can get into short range, the versatile mech will have overall less firepower than you do, and the long range mech will have even less.

The only time a versatile mech has an advantage over a specialized mech is if he really manages to catch him out his element - but even then, he has still less of an advantage compared to a specialized mech in his element fighting another specialized mech out of his counter - and the versatile mech is trying to engage enemies that know their strengths and weaknesses extremely well and will avoid and break any combat situation where they don't play to their strength.

Note, that this is the deal for single mechs. If we're talking mech lances or teams, being versatile might be a good idea, but that is not relevant for designing a single mech.


4 - Missile Boating encouraged by AMS, ECM, TAG and Narc
AMS is highly effective against small missile numbers, but it becomes a drop in the ocean when it has to deal with huge missile numbers. From an LRM user perspective, using only a small or single launcher is not very effective.

And then there is ECM. ECM is common enough that you cannot really risk to go without counters against it, and you generally do not know whether your team mate will come with Tag or Narc or not.
Which means you need to add TAG or Narc (though the latter is so ineffective right now that few would want to) to your mech. But adding 1+ ton of equipment and an energy hard point for a single launcher is not very efficient. It becomes a better idea to equip lots of missiles.

---

I think 1, 2 and 4 can be dealt with.

1) Forcing chain-fire with server enforced global cooldowns, convergence limitations and stuff like that can break this benefit.
2) Standardizing recycle times across many weapons can help a lot here. They don't all need the same duration, they just need a duration that's compatible. A 2 second cooldown is compatible with a 4 second cooldown, for example. You fire the 2 second gun every 2 seconds, and every 2nd shot with them you also fire the 4 second cooldown gun.

4) ECM needs to be less binary, and having it counter TAG or Narc rather than the other way around (but then not break missile locks on its own) might help. AMS could create an interception chance for every missile entering it, so that it always intercepts 33 % of all incoming missiles. This also stacks better when you enter the range of multiple AMS. (a 33 % interception chance means a 66 % survival chance, if you stack 3 AMS, that's a 66 % * 66 *% * 66 % = 28 % survival chance or a 72 % interception chance)


3) Can not be so easily countered. It would require a "metabuild" system where you get some kind of perks for having a versatile loadout that makes it worth the drawbacks. Even that might be impractical and just lead to versatile mechs being superior to specialized mechs, which isn't really all that desirable either.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 16 July 2013 - 02:39 AM.

[Jakob Knight]

As others have noted, if the whole point of these tweeks is to cut down on the number of overgunned configurations, why would you want to increase the base heat of PPCs and ERPPCs (nerfing normal usage of them) while decreasing the penalties from scaling (boosting overuse of them on a mech)? Seems just the opposite of what you'd want, especially since mechs using them as intended (a CPLT-K2 sporting 2 ERPPCs) can't handle the heat as it is.

Seems completely 180 degrees from what you'd want, if this was really about balancing.

[Milt]

pgi needs to look outside of the box of nerf and buff individual weapon damage and heat and consider some of the other variables. we have ammo/ton, armor/ton, rate of fire, heat, damage, spread, type of damage(dot and pinpoint), ease of use, hardpoint slots, and flighttime just to name some of them. all of these need to be in the balance equation. if they were to take the medium laser and balance all of the weapons to it with all of the variables included in the equation it would make for more consistent balance. if you were to then analyze each variable's interaction within the equation they would find out which variable would give a linear change and which would give an exponential change. they could then make more consistent decisions towards balance.

[JohnnyWayne]

You forgot "heatsinks till heatneutral".

But, there is no such thing like an equation for balance issues. Equations only adress quantitive attributes (that can be expressed with an number). Qualitative attributes (e.g. how a weapon is rated in the current gameplay) are not adressed. Why? because you cant. There is no way to measure such a thing.

[Deathlike]

Gulinborsti, on 16 July 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

But every feature they implemented turned out to be well planned ahead and finally - after a lot of strange tweaking in every possible direction - turn out to be working fine. It worked for ECM, it will work for the movement changes and I think that their plans to remove certain boating issues with the improved heat mechhanics might turn out to be good decision.

ECM is still in a bad state, but it's only badly mangled due to the excessive PPC meta, followed by BAP being a hard counter (which is a bad counter to a badly functioning utility).

I guess you haven't seen all the rage in the ECM thread, even AFTER the last "nerf" to ECM which was BAP... there's no fueling rage than a terrible imbalance that was ECM in the first place.

Edit:
Also, to those who keep arguing that Gauss will not converge to the same place the PPC will when in the PPC+Gauss combos... you're right.

However, with most people driving heavies or assaults in the current meta, tend to not move very quickly.. thus making PPC+Gauss converge pretty well with the CT and/or side torsos of those mechs, despite their projectile speed differences. In other words, IT IS PERFECT AGAINST THE TARGETS THE META FAVORS.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 July 2013 - 04:31 AM.

[Warge]

Victor Morson, on 15 July 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

The sad part is literally five or six people have put up polls all WILDLY successful to make Seismic weight class dependent instead of a straight nerf, so the smaller your 'mech, the shorter the range. i.e. Assault = 400, Heavy = 300, Medium = 200, Light = 100, etc.

That's the PGI: not listen to players.

Victor Morson, on 15 July 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

There's more creative solutions than ripping out your nerf bat all the time PGI.

What can I say? PGI-style!

Edited by Warge, 16 July 2013 - 04:36 AM.