230 replies to this topic

[AlexEss]

Damocles69, on 30 July 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

These "aggressive balance changes" litteraly take 2 mins to implement with XML. Why arnt they in this patch? Was it nap time at the office or did you fools have to hurry to get back to daycare because your sitter would get mad?

Yeah.. jumping out of a car at 60 miles per hour only takes 30 sec... It is not the XML change that is important. it is the effect it will have on the game that takes time to test and evaluate... Just how jumping out of the car is the easy part.. it is the landing that is tricky.

[Kymlaar]

I love this game, but I find myself annoyed at the devs.

SRMs just got to the point where I and others were interested in using them, and now SRM-4 and SRM-6 is linked. This is unacceptable for a couple reasons, not the least of which is that missiles fired are based on tubes available on the chassis.

LL/ERLL/LPL were never a problem what with the damage over time nature of them. ERLL especially are rarely used due to their heat to damage ratio.

This new heat system will damage the game in that an equation is needed in order to determine basic functionality of a mech. People won't understand the system, and will become frustrated with the game rather than giving it a chance. Between trial mechs and it being a complex game, the cost of entry in terms of patience is high. With our new heat scaling system, the cost has just increased due to frustration at a difficult system. That being said, I don't argue with the results of the system, just the implementation.

Weapons shouldn't generate magical heat unless there's a universal, understandable system in place for this. An energy-type system would help with this, with engines having a reservoir of energy that recharges fast, and incurs heat penalties if you go into an energy deficit. Different weapons should be given different energy values to fire.

My final problem, and this isn't about this patch but the game in general. The tube system for missiles. As it stands, certain mechs have advantages over others that are nothing but cosmetic choice. If a mech doesn't have enough tubes to fire what is being fired, then it should just magic up the others. The current system changes the way a weapon works on different mechs, and it shouldn't. I know just recently that I had to avoid using 1xsrm-4 1x srm-6 on a Quickdraw because when I applied both, the SRM-4 launched from a 6 port, and the SRM-6 launched from a 5 port, meaning that one missile was always wasted.

Long story short, the game has weight, hardpoints, and a few other considerations to balance and give pros/cons to various chassis. The chassis shouldn't be given further pros/cons by things that are unknowable until you buy and attempt to configure the chassis.

Edited by Kymlaar, 30 July 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[arghmace]

Nebelfeuer, on 30 July 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

ER Large Laser is going to have its base heat reduced.
Another bad idea IMHO current heat difference between ERLL and LL feels right for the rangegain and makes you consider twice witch weapon to choose

ER LL has been considered crap by this community ever since the current heat values were implemented. Very few people use it. It certainly is too hot compared to LL.

[Skadi]

AlexEss, on 30 July 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

Yeah.. jumping out of a car at 60 miles per hour only takes 30 sec... It is not the XML change that is important. it is the effect it will have on the game that takes time to test and evaluate... Just how jumping out of the car is the easy part.. it is the landing that is tricky.

Im sorry, you seem to forget what Beta meens.
OH GOD HE TURNED THE NOB UP BY ONE HEAT (which they already told us its as easy as turning a nob to change those values). Were here to test ****, I vote turn the damn nob, up it by one, and let us test it.

Edited by Skadi, 30 July 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[Braggart]

reducing the beam duration isnt going to come close to making pulse lasers viable.

They need a range increase on top of it, esp the Medium pulse. 90% of this game is taking place at 250+ meters.

Large pulse are still going to be garbage when compared to Large lasers, and ppcs. PPCs with be slightly more heat, but they deal all their damage to 1 location, instantly. You cant take a laser give it a sprinkle more damage, worse range, and nearly identical heat and same weight and actually think it will be useful.

Pulse lasers have to have a range increase. They have so many negatives and drawbacks that they suck compared to regular lasers.

6 medium lasers has the same damage as 5 medium pulse, 1 less heat, better range, and 4 less tons. This means that in all cases in this game, 6 medium lasers is always better than 5 pulse in every single situation in this game.

Atleast change pulse lasers to 3x maximum range like ballistics. They need something to set them apart and make them worth the investment.

Edited by Braggart, 30 July 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[Tezcatli]

Monky, on 30 July 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Beam time is huge for all lasers, little tweaks previously to laser duration made big differences in viability (have been in since closed beta). The issue with LPL's and MPL's is that they weigh more, are hotter, shorter ranged and deal only slightly more damage, without any noticeable benefit for this extra penalty currently. Weight isn't going to change, and everything else can't change too much, beam time however can be a highly effective buff. A hit scan weapon that deals most of its damage in one location is valuable.

It's almost like they're trying to make Large Pulse lasers on par with PPCs, but for close range. Like you said though, they have many draw backs, the question is whether this buff is enough to overcome them and make it worth using again. Especially large pulse lasers. I don't see those very much, except the occasional Stalker.

[Deathlike]

One Medic Army, on 30 July 2013 - 11:12 AM, said:

Crits only occur when the armor on a component is gone and damage is dealt to the internal structure, crits are damage to the internal components which are in addition to damage to the internal components.

What this seems to indicate, is that when you're hitting internal components with say an MG, you will be dealing some additional damage to the internal structure.

Alright, that sounds OK. So, this is an indirect buff to MGs/LBX/Flamers primarily (unless there's something I've missed).

Quote

My big question is will this have any effect if I shoot an MG into an exposed location which contains no internal components?

Good question. I get the feeling that MG bonus crit damage will still be applied to the internal structure, despite having no components within that section. I mean, that would defeat the purpose of the changes themselves...

[One Medic Army]

ShadowbaneX, on 30 July 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

It means when you get a crit, ie blow out heat sinks or a weapon, some (more) damage will be dealt to the structure. It's still mostly useless as we can't damage actuators, the engine or the gyro.

Actually, we've been able to damage the engine for a long time, just that there's no effect for having a damaged engine, except during R&R when the repair cost made you cry on an XL.

Might give MG spiders a slightly better ability to actually kill mechs, since shooting an exposed CT might transfer some of the engine damage into the actual useful form of internal structure damage.

[LaserAngel]

Tennex, on 30 July 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

these seem like reasonable changes.

though LPL heat is still a bit overthetop


on the topic of ER lasers
IMO the range extension you pay with the heat, is useless since nobody can hold that beam over such a long duration, and still be able to do damage at long range..

What a coincidence, I was about to mention this too. Back in November 2012 I recall Garth making a post about ER Large Lasers and PPCs. The exact post escapes me but I remember Garth mentioning one of the ideas they tossed around internally was to reduce the ER Large Lasers burn in time to 0.75 seconds to make it easier to "snipe". Of course the heat then and now heat penalties would prevent spamming/boating. If they're going reduce the Pulse Laser burn-in all to say 0.5 seconds, perhaps they should look into dropping the ER Large Laser to 0.75 seconds again.

I'd like to see the ER Large Laser dropped to 9 heat. Still two more than a Large Laser and on par, again, to the old 9 heat on the PPC.

[Elizander]

I am liking the shorter beam duration on the Medium Pulse Lasers because a lot of mechs rely on twisting to spread damage and the shorter time I need to expose my CT the better. It will fill a gap as a smaller energy weapon that can deal damage quickly and you can twist away before taking too much return fire. Given we already had the SPL but that's not good to have on slow mechs because you'll never get into range enough to make good use of them.

Large Pulse Laser is probably better off as a short-range, low heat replacement for the ER PPC or at least that's how where I think it should be. Some extra range on it would still be nice. Hopefully the heat difference with the ER PPC (close to 4 heat?) will be enough to differentiate it from the sniper energy weapon. It's still in an iffy place but I'll wait to test it with the new numbers before deciding. It's hard to give up the versatility of an ER PPC since it has insane range.

• A % of critical damage done to the internals of a component will be applied directly to the inner structure of that component.

The wording on this is very odd, I am assuming this means:


1) I crit.
2) I deal damage to equipment.
3) A percentage of the damage I dealt to equipment will be applied to the internal structure in the location where the equipment is located.

So if my SRM missile crits for 2.0 damage on an AC/20 in an HBK's right torso, a percentage of that 2.0 damage will be applied to the IS of the right torso. This might actually make critseekers a bit more useful if they can chew through IS faster.

So ideally a point blank LBX shot to an unarmored CT should do more damage than an AC/10.

Sable, on 30 July 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Now just take that last step and reduce PPC projectile speed and the circle of life will be complete!!!


.... and i can come back and play again!!

Given that projectile speed should be relative to maximum range for ease of use and accuracy, the PPC is around 30ish% shorter ranged than the ER PPC so I think an equivalent projectile speed penalty is in order. Bringing it down to 1,600 m/s won't be so bad for the game and it will make the ER PPC even more valuable.

Edited by Elizander, 30 July 2013 - 11:22 AM.

[arghmace]

ShadowbaneX, on 30 July 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

It's still mostly useless as we can't damage actuators, the engine or the gyro.

I'm pretty sure that engine is crittable but it just doesn't suffer any harm from it. Engine is used as crit padding by all of us, is it not? But yes, unfortunately actuators aren't targeted by criticals. So after this change critting the engine will deal extra damage. Now I would much prefer the engine itself getting penalties like reduced speed from crits but at least now the crits hitting the engine aren't a complete waste.

[ManDaisy]

Mechs will all certainly die faster. Assaults will be more effected then lights. I welcome our new lag shielded overlords?

[KableGuy]

Chavette, on 30 July 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Hello Paul. Can you explain me why the LLaser has such a small max heat penalty grouping value(sigh) as 2?

For example, a 4 or 5LL stalker was never seen as overpowered, and it was quite fun... it wasn't pinpoint damage either.

Are there chances of revisiting these sometimes unfair numbers? The 6MLaser gives 30 damage before penalty but 2LLaser gives only 18.

The man makes a good point.

[Nebelfeuer]

arghmace, on 30 July 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

ER LL has been considered crap by this community ever since the current heat values were implemented. Very few people use it. It certainly is too hot compared to LL.

And that is the way it has to be since otherwise everyone would mount ER variants

[LaserAngel]

Elizander, on 30 July 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

I am liking the shorter beam duration on the Medium Pulse Lasers because a lot of mechs rely on twisting to spread damage and the shorter time I need to expose my CT the better. It will fill a gap as a smaller energy weapon that can deal damage quickly and you can twist away before taking too much return fire. Given we already had the SPL but that's not good to have on slow mechs because you'll never get into range enough to make good use of them.

Large Pulse Laser is probably better off as a short-range, low heat replacement for the ER PPC or at least that's how where I think it should be. Some extra range on it would still be nice. Hopefully the heat difference with the ER PPC (close to 4 heat?) will be enough to differentiate it from the sniper energy weapon. It's still in an iffy place but I'll wait to test it with the new numbers before deciding. It's hard to give up the versatility of an ER PPC since it has insane range.

• A % of critical damage done to the internals of a component will be applied directly to the inner structure of that component.

The wording on this is very odd, I am assuming this means:


1) I crit.
2) I deal damage to equipment.
3) A percentage of the damage I dealt to equipment will be applied to the internal structure in the location where the equipment is located.

So if my SRM missile crits for 2.0 damage on an AC/20 in an HBK's right torso, a percentage of that 2.0 damage will be applied to the IS of the right torso. This might actually make critseekers a bit more useful if they can chew through IS faster.

So ideally a point blank LBX shot to an unarmored CT should do more damage than an AC/10.

In addition, perhaps the range of Small Lasers/Small Pulse Lasers could see an increase to 120 m.

210 m on Medium Pulse Lasers. 320/340 m for the Large Pulse Lasers.

[Tennex]

the critical % to internal thing seems like it'd be better as an exclusive trait of crit seeking weapons...


haveing it on all weapons is just going to increase the randomness of the game

[Erata]

I love it. It is still BETTER to take Gauss/PPC long range builds than it is to take the adjusted LL/LPL/ERLL weapons even with heat +1 PPCs.

Stay the course.

[Carrioncrows]

ove bababoke, on 30 July 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

That`s what I`m thinking.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH.

I don't know what it is about these guys, the keep coming up with these weird *** algorithm's to justify weapons that do too little damage.

I only care about weapons that: "DEAL DAMAGE"

I don't care about weapons that kill crits, i don't care about weapons that only function when the armor is shaved off, I don't care about weapons that have a crit-chance to deal extra damage.

Just buff the damage already and quit wasting my time, your time, and programmers time on abstract nonsense.

Seriously did someone bet this guy 20 bucks that he could make mguns and flamers useful with out having them deal damage or effect heat?

I'm just frustrated.

[Jman5]

Quote

A % of critical damage done to the internals of a component will be applied directly to the inner structure of that component.

As others mentioned, I'm a bit wary of this change.

For larger mechs it wont be as big a deal, but what about smaller mechs with significantly lower internal hitpoints? The 16 internal hitpoints on a raven's side torso will be hit much harder than an atlas' 42 hp.

I understand why this is being done. You want to find a way to better reward +crit weapons and give the mechanic itself more noticeable value. However, instead of doing that, why not just a find a way to better show the player the impact of their critical hits? More of a: "Hey btw you just crit that guy's PPC out /thumbs up." I would like a little message to pop when you knock out an enemy's gun. Perhaps you could even add it to the end of round personal stat page. Show how many weapons/ammo you critical'd over the course of the game and perhaps give them a small monetary reward like you do for regular component destruction.

I personally do not believe the critical damage feature needs to be buffed. I just think its powerful effect is too subtle for most to appreciate. You have to do better at showing players the positive impact their critical hits have.

Edited by Jman5, 30 July 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Lonestar1771]

At this point what is there left to nerf? Mechlab!?

Edited by Lonestar1771, 30 July 2013 - 11:36 AM.