230 replies to this topic

[carl kerensky]

Chronojam, on 30 July 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

No kidding! Mechs need a much larger pool of internal health so that there is something meaningful there, you can stumble around getting components shot out, trying to wrangle your dying machine as systems go offline, your HUD starts to decay or blank out, etc. Not being cored by a volley of LRMs (these aren't too bad except for the fact they love the CT) or dropping instantly because one of the long-range high-alpha flavor-of-the-year guys and his buddy snapped a shot from just above a ridgeline from across the map.

This...a million times over. The essence of Mech warfare is exactly that !!

[Avalios]

These balance changes are a complete joke. It takes MONTHS for the most obvious changes to be made which is just a matter of changing the number values. You announced weeks ago a ppc increase of 1 heat.....yet it gets held off from this patch and announced for next patch? NOBODY disagrees with a ppc heat increase. Is changing an 8 to a 9 too difficult? 2 weeks wasn't enough time for a couple keyboard clicks?

Why do you fight us on everything? The community doesn't agree on much but when we actually DO agree something must be done you wait and wait, and wait some more, then announce maybe? Then wait some more.

[Suri Curume]

Znail, on 30 July 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

If you want less PPCs on the field, then Large Lasers needs to be viable as alternative and they wont be that as long as they are affected by the heat scaling.

It's not that they won't be viable while under effect of the heat scaling, they won't be viable if they are kept to the same restrictions as the PPCs. If their max alpha was raised to 4, now the LL are in a better place. Hell 3 would be an improvement. But if you're penalized for more than 2, you may as well stick with the PPCs.

[Erata]

aseth, on 30 July 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

I finally got to play my first match in Terra Therma. Really awesome looking map.

I have one problem though - I know you're planning for 12v12, but that map is too damn big. We ran around for several minutes just trying to find the other team.

Please make another version of the map that's like one quarter the size, and I'll love you forever.

Reminds me of this map called Planet Canada (Alpine Valley) that also was made for 12 v 12 play, an alternate 8 v 8 version was never made.

I can realistically see this happening for the new map Aggro-Crag (Mt Doom), as well.

[Stalephreak]

What do I think of this patch? I think I'm never going to pilot my Sarah! You still haven't addressed the facepalmica epica disaster of last patch (heat scale). PGI, care to state, for the record, when the last drop I did was? Think there's a connection? No.... Well, that's one way to NUKEM

Edited by Stalephreak, 30 July 2013 - 06:55 PM.

[Sable]

I just laugh now when i see the phrase "PPCs aren't the problem". You don't see thread after thread after thread in the balance forum about any other weapon CONTINUALLY. Other weapons come and go as changes happen to them but PPCs rule everything even the forum. Obviously there are a lot of people that feel some concern about their performance compared to all other weapons. Thats right... ALL OTHER WEAPONS. They aren't just better performing than some, they are better performing than most. So... i submit that PPCs "are" the problem.

[Erata]

Sable, on 30 July 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

I just laugh now when i see the phrase "PPCs aren't the problem". You don't see thread after thread after thread in the balance forum about any other weapon CONTINUALLY. Other weapons come and go as changes happen to them but PPCs rule everything even the forum. Obviously there are a lot of people that feel some concern about their performance compared to all other weapons. Thats right... ALL OTHER WEAPONS. They aren't just better performing than some, they are better performing than most. So... i submit that PPCs "are" the problem.

PPCs arent the problem in and of themselves.

The way some long range weapons interact with heat and damage Vs the way most shorter/medium ranged weapons interact with damage and heat is the problem.

A sniping robot built around mixing Gauss Rifles and PPCs remains competitive at all ranges, and has comparable damage output to a "brawler" robot, and in some cases, better heat efficiency and overall DPS than a brawling robot.

So no, PPCs aren't the problem in and of themselves. The problem is that fielding a snipey robot is just way more flexible over the course of a battle. These builds take advantage of using instant damage vs the damage over time of beam weapons and rapid fire weapons that spread damage across an entire robot, vs cutting to the heart of a single component to disable or destroy.

edit:

For the most part, a typical ~optimal~ long range robot will have nearly as much sustainable DPS or better sustainable DPS at ranges where the medium-range brawler is unable to return fire due to range differencesand because their DPS is balanced without regard to range, will enter combat against snipers in a wounded/disabled state.
Thus, players all adopt the long range meta in order to have a fighting chance.

Edited by Erata, 30 July 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[Tennex]

DisasterMedic, on 30 July 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Because this was edited in to a post on the first page, and a lot of people may have missed that:

lets say AC20 has 15 internal health.

if you destroy a person''s AC20 through crits, you do x% of 15 damage to the RT carrying the AC20 as well. would be my guess.

so critical damage now actually does increased damage to a mech, instead of just killing an internal, and doing no added damage.


i think they should just let this crit system go. Its way too random. and at this point with internal health being such a small part of a mech's total health, the crit system is really not worth it

Edited by Tennex, 30 July 2013 - 08:18 PM.

[Ragnar Ebonmane]

Suri Curume, on 30 July 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

It's not testing because we're not given anything to test. I'm saying what should be done. There is still just as much whining now as there would be if they had changed values every week. There is going to be whining either way, but imagine if there were whining AND stuff was getting done.

The difference is, right now, they are using their internal test team to take 4 months to revert a change to PPCs. 1 value. That internal test team could have been dedicated to helping with testing and fine tuning gameplay mechanics changes. While we could be playing with the numbers.

Remember when they did this whole spiel about raising SRM damage to 2.5 would be game breaking. We could have done that legwork for them. We could have said, "Man, 2.5 damage is nuts! Drop it to 2.0." Then the next round begins. What if 2.0 damage is too little still or has become too much. How much longer will it take for their internal team to figure it out? How long did it take us to find the OMGBROKENOP PPC/Gauss combo after they implement HSR? They could have gone through countless iterations of heat values and projectile speeds and everything. We could have been done with the "PPC issue" a long time ago, or at the very least, a whole lot closer to the solution.

I understand that they are a small company. But they do have a major asset. The MechWarrior IP brought a lot of people to them. They should be USING us. Give us the aggressive changes and let us show you how we'd break the game. Hell, people who are bored with the stagnant gameplay options would at least be able to log in and see "What's broken in a funny way this week?" and enjoy making crazed builds that should never work. That would keep a lot of the momentum going through the beta and lead us into launch.

Supposedly, this is still beta. This is the time to break the game. This is the time to fiddle with the numbers wildly, because after "launch", such wild changes will be beyond unacceptable. You think the whining is bad now? Imagine what it will look like when people are handed this game in September and are told it's complete.

They have a basic game that has great potential to be fun. I just want them to let us help them. Please, I love this game. PGI, let us help you.

^^this!

[Deathlike]

Tennex, on 30 July 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

i think they should just let this crit system go. Its way too random. and at this point with internal health being such a small part of a mech's total health, the crit system is really not worth it

What? This is the system that brought birth to the MG, Flamer, and LBX bonuses! The same one that has ECM and Gauss being weakened AND AC20 not get instagibbed so quickly! Then again, nothing else has changed with respect to this system to my knowledge.

Outside of that... you're craaaaaaaaaaaaaazy.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 July 2013 - 08:28 PM.

[IIIuminaughty]

the real problem is....im OP at this game. I Need to be nerfed. Where is the competition?

[Asmosis]

I read it as a % gets transferred to internals regardless of the item destruction, so in the case of XL engines for example, they actually reduce the overall damage you take to your side torsos currently since any crit on them does no damage to anything whatsoever. Thats a problem for weapons with increased crit chance.

The % is probably/hopefully set at a level where it still does at least the same amount of damage to internal structure as it would have if the crit hadnt occured, in addition to the component damage.

Basically its piercing bonus damage

[Frost Lord]

carl kerensky, on 30 July 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

This...a million times over. The essence of Mech warfare is exactly that !!

especially heavy and assault mechs since the lights and mediums are getting faster, it would be a good role balance if assaults and the larger heavy's had a harder time hitting lights and mids but could last longer since they seem to be the first targets for concentrated fire.

[xengk]

Quote

A % of critical damage done to the internals of a component will be applied directly to the inner structure of that component.

Bonus Internal damage when scoring a crit?
This give LBX and MG lovers more reason to use their favourite weapons.
Good for them, personally I don't use these weapons but they do needed some buff.
I believe all other weapon also benefit from this.

Quote

Large and medium pulse lasers are going to have their beam durations reduced.

Yes, this is good.
Please also consider reducing cooldown for pulse too, but retain the heat and range. Cut beam duration by 0.25 to 0.5 second, and reduce cooldown by 1 second.
Make them brutal fast firing weapon that should be feared in a brawl but at the risk of cooking yourself.

Quote

ER Large Laser is going to have its base heat reduced.

Preferably reduce to 8 or 7.5 heat, between LL and LPL.

Quote

PPC and ERPPCs will be bumped by 1 base heat each.

A good move, inching back to original heat value.
Maybe reset them back to original heat and let us try it out in the next PTS?

[FiveDigits]

My Chromatic CN9-AL really was OP, one-shotting one-legged Commandos with stripped CT armor at 300 meters left and right.
I'm glad I am not compelled playing easy mode any longer.

[VXJaeger]

Luckily I've never used more than 2 (ER)PPCs on my builds.
I just hope that those little ***** w/ PPCs disappear after that heatbuff.

Edited by VXJaeger, 30 July 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[Panimu]

Deathlike, on 30 July 2013 - 10:56 AM, said:

I understand what he's changing, but that doesn't actually change the more serious problems with those weapons.. mainly damage and heat, which for the most part is inferior when you have to consider your heat dissipation in conjunction with the lowered range.

If you change too many things at once in your beta then you end up not knowing which change created the result. Hence one thing at a time.

[FunkMasterTaco]

IMO, this whole heat penalty system is fubar... for the lack of a better word.

LPL and MPL need the shorter beam duration, but a heat or weight reduction....but not both.

PPCs need a slower projectile speed (think gauss); might reduce their use that way

Ammo might be an issue in 12v12, further encouraging the use of energy weapons.

Plenty of other things that need changing IMO but they have been repeated countless times now.... no sense in beating a rotting dead husk of a horse

Edited by FunkMasterTaco, 31 July 2013 - 01:11 AM.

[Alex Warden]

to me those changes sound good. if the first point (crit damage) would ONLY apply for MG´s and LB/10 any maybe flamers. otherwise it´s true: the gameplay is fast enough, mechs don´t need to become weaker than they already are.

the LPL buff is great, i still use LPL in some builds, especially on my cicada or other "drive by" mechs, since i have seen enough matches been lost due to lights using PPC´s and not been able to stand against their counterparts. i´´m not that bad with ppc´s, but a laser is just more reliable than a ppc in fast combat situations,and basically a LPL is 2 medlasers in one, and thats how i use them. 1 LPL paired with medlasers. works out for me. maybe some ppl see that different, but that´s the good thing about MW: everybody has different preferences. in short: give me that lower beam duration, make me more pinpoint. i´ll take it

and anything that ruins the day of those "mech lab abusers" who think that all fun in a MechWarrior game relies on "One hit,One kill" gets my deep-from-the-heart YES.

[Fooooo]

Gallowglas, on 30 July 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

I agree 100% with Thontor on this. I'm never one to over-react, but this single line has me extremely concerned. The life cycle of a mech that has reached internals should be longer, not shorter. I definitely understand the need to make the LBX/10 more valuable, but unless you're buffing the health of the component internals, this seems ill-considered.

There is definitely not enough info about how they are going to go about the crit change.


That said, maybe the idea is to only apply this effect to the crit seeker weapons?? (LBX, MGS etc)
Or maybe reduce the crit dmg for other weapons etc.
Or have a seperate % for each weapon.

Like say MGS get 100% crit dmg turned into IS dmg.
AC/20's get 10% of crit dmg turned into IS dmg. (2dmg per crit)

etc etc.

Granted paul did not mention this was the plan, but as I said, there wasnt enough info about it from what paul said anyway, he just stated what the new crit mechanic did exactly. (put some crit dmg to internal structure)

If it applied to every weapon the same, then yes mechs are going to go down faster but its always been better to use a high dmg weapon anyway. 1 crit from an ac/20 will knock out any component + transfer mor dmg than an MG. 1 crit from an MG bullet wont knock out anything and will do nothing to IS.

Hopefully they have already thought all that through and yeah maybe paul will elaborate more on the idea later ?

Edited by Fooooo, 31 July 2013 - 02:30 AM.