104 replies to this topic

[Sephlock]

M0rpHeu5, on 13 August 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

I found their banner

[soapyfrog]

Cadodd, on 13 August 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

Salvage has been nerfed by a far bigger amount then only 50%. I havent seen any matches with more then 12-13k salvage, before patch there has been games with around 50-60k of Salvage. And even a "low" reduction of 19% per game is too much especially if you consider the increased Match time of +~20%

I have saw plenty of salvage before the patch around 30k or low 20s even so I cannot reach a firm conclusion. In fact 25-35k was more the norm (people tend to post their best matches when they post screenshots, and even those it's not common to see 40k or more).. 50% seems really like a worst case, given every other nerf was 12-16%.

I have not taken longer matches into account I am just looking at match rewards one for one, which is mainly what people have been complaining about. I have no doubt that earning over time has received a more significant nerf due to several factors including length of match, and 12v12 solo drops generally being harder for better players.

This is not a value judgement as to whether the nerf is good or bad, it's an attempt to actually quanitify the nerf, and cut past gut-feelings and simple overreactions. Saying the nerf is worse than it is doesn't actually help anything whether you like it or not.

[Desdain]

MaddMaxx, on 13 August 2013 - 07:17 AM, said:

A better analogy would be, you can never reduce a spoiled child's allowance without getting a lot of sour feed-back, despite the reason being fair and or reasonable. The spoiled child will hear none of it.

You assume that there is a fair and reasonable reason they did this. I for one don't agree with that assumption. It felt about right before. I've spent over $400 dollars on this game so far, and with new mechs coming in so frequently, saw no end in sight. I was happy with the rate at which I was building new mechs and outfitting them with modules. Now it feels more like a huge grind. When I think about getting a new engine or module now, I just wrinkle my nose and say "**** that".

Edited by Desdain, 14 August 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[Scromboid]

FWIW, consider this match - http://www.youtube.c...d&v=zdnhaII3v_Y

First of all, the match itself is histerical. Very fun to watch and actually funny to listen to. The tactics employed during the match are enough to watch the thing several times in its entirety just to understand their brilliance.

Anyways, the final screen actually depicts his winnings.

Conquest Mode: Battle Time: 6:27
Kills: 6
Kill Assists: 5
Comp Destr: 9
Damage: 348
Spotting: 3

173,967 CBills.
Win 25,000
Kills 12,594
KA: 16,000
Comp Destr: 9,900
Damage: 7,308
Spot: 3,300
Salvage: 15,126
Resource: 26,750
WINNINGS: 115,978
Premium: 57,989
TOTAL: 173,967

Now... to say this is an outstanding game is sort of undershadowing it. This is am amazing game, with an amazing outcome that would have netted significantly more CBills post patch. Actually... this sort of output would have been impossible, considering that he would not have been able to put shells on 11 mechs. 11!

Post CBill nerf, this would have been, even with 3 less kills or 3 less assists, an over 230k CBill game.

This nerf is too much. KA and Kills alone would have added an additional 36k+ CBills - ignoring the rest of the stats.

[Scromboid]

Desdain, on 14 August 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

You assume that there is a fair and reasonable reason they did this. I for one don't agree with that assumption. It felt about right before. I've spent over $400 dollars on this game so far, and with new mechs coming in so frequently, saw no end in sight. I was happy with the rate at which I was building new mechs and outfitting them with modules. Now it feels more like a huge grind. When I think about getting a new engine or module now, I just wrinkle my nose and say "**** that".

See, this, all by itself, can be the key point to unmasking this as the slap in the face travesty that it is.

Desdain and many many others (myself included) have spent money on this game based on the state of the game and based on what the developers have told us (which is precious little) the game is going to be like. Changing something this monumental AFTER already dropping hundreds of dollars on this game is unconscionable as well as unethical.

And before you say "it's BETA", you need to check yourself. The MINUTE you open a cash shop, you are out of beta, my friend, and into a fully released PROFITING game.

What they have done here to the folks who have already spent money on this game (think the nerf to Premium Time holders, the Founders and every one who has purchased a hero mech. Your BONUS just got hit with a HUGE NERF, too!) is cheated people out of money spent in good faith to help fund a project (and purchase goods from) that they believed in ans supported with no recourse other than to come on the forums here and sound their voices.

Imagine it this way. You buy into a fund at work. You put down $1000 and the fund manager tells you at the end of the year, you will get $1000 back. Then, 7 months later, he comes to you and says, "Oh, that investment you made... yeah, I know I promised you $1000, but you are really getting $500, and there is nothing you can do about it. Oh, BTW, I think you were going to profit too much to begin with".

[Gazbo]

I really, really pity any new players joining right now....

- Steep learning curve with no soft entry
- An ever increasing non-canon complexity of the game mechanics
- Longer matches with more punishing encounters
- Crazy mech scaling and hit box issues
- Groups (on comms) vs pugs (with no readily available comms)
- Crazy matchmaking

And now to top it off,

- Less income...
-- to buy the mechs that you really joined up for
-- to make your mech even remotely competitive with DHS, ES, better guns...or to experiment in different play styles


If PGI want more money (which I understand), this is NOT the way to do it.


You want more players, then convert them into 'customers' through fun - not grind.


I do sincerely hope this is just a big (BIG) misunderstanding from PGI. If not, then I have lost a lot of faith in them and this game.

I've supported this game, bought a bunch of hero mechs, colours, patterns etc, to the tune of more $$$ than what most AAA titles cost. And I feel the hurt now.

So, I can only imagine what a new player must feel.


G

[Devilsfury]

Gazbo, on 14 August 2013 - 08:54 PM, said:

I really, really pity any new players joining right now....

- Steep learning curve with no soft entry
- An ever increasing non-canon complexity of the game mechanics
- Longer matches with more punishing encounters
- Crazy mech scaling and hit box issues
- Groups (on comms) vs pugs (with no readily available comms)
- Crazy matchmaking

And now to top it off,

- Less income...
-- to buy the mechs that you really joined up for
-- to make your mech even remotely competitive with DHS, ES, better guns...or to experiment in different play styles


If PGI want more money (which I understand), this is NOT the way to do it.


You want more players, then convert them into 'customers' through fun - not grind.


I do sincerely hope this is just a big (BIG) misunderstanding from PGI. If not, then I have lost a lot of faith in them and this game.

I've supported this game, bought a bunch of hero mechs, colours, patterns etc, to the tune of more $$$ than what most AAA titles cost. And I feel the hurt now.

So, I can only imagine what a new player must feel.


G

Exactly. {Noble MechWarriors} should shoot themselves if they disagree. Aparently, they never remembered being a noob and getting your *** kicked for the first few weeks. Now you have 12 people killing you instead of 8.

[Boyinleaves]

Gazbo, you're dead on about the new player experience. So many factors impede new players from continuing after a few matches. I've had one friend that I've introduced persevere with the game (possibly more out of constant badgering than a genuine enjoyment), out of more than a dozen that I've introduced to MW:O. I truly fear for the repercussions of this learning wall at launch date. Unfortunately, with respect to the new player experience, I think the C-Bill reduction is one of the least problematic barriers to new players. It affects them, certainly (unless they pay to circumvent it to an extent), but all of the other issues you mentioned are more vital and urgent.

Besides the general reduction in income, C-Bill (and XP though not so much) rewards are currently not fine tuned enough to correctly reward either outstanding individual or outstanding team play. Spotting bonuses, Tagging bonuses, Saviour Kills, Capping bonuses; none of them really support playing in the way they are intended, and can be (ab)used by anyone looking to make a buck at someone else's expense. Lack of a Metagame contributes to this also.

I love this game, and the franchise, and I want to see it succeed. I'm happy to throw money at new 'Mechs, even at their regular prices, but most of the financial/pricing decisions PGI (or IGP?) make and have made seriously baffle me; Not because I think they are expensive or unreasonable, but because I don't know who their intended audience is for a lot of the purchasing options, and a lot of the prices seem to either alienate their prospective customers, or simply make them disinterested. Didn't they realise that reducing income would bother pretty much everyone who has paid for Premium Time (and to a lesser extent, Hero 'Mechs)? Then again, IGP's coffers may tell a different story, I'm not privy to their finances.

[Angel of Annihilation]

RG Notch, on 10 August 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

You're making the foolish assumption this wasn't something planned. Without R&R where will all those C bills go, who will need MC for premium or to buy mechs? Not saying this is a wise decision, just saying I doubt the drop in earnings is a mistake.

I can answer this.

Into purchasing the 113 variants that are either already in the game or will be in the game within the next few months. I mean I have been playing since May 2012 and have only played like 40 different variants including closed beta. Only 33 since open beta. I have a crap ton more to buy.....100s of millions more to buy to be exact and this isn't including the millions extra I will need to add DHS, Endo, Artemis, FF armor, XL engines, weapons, and equipment I will need as well.

The point is even with the old rewards, hero mechs and permium, I would have had a good 6-12 months worth of mech related content to work my way through with just the existing stuff in game. Then consider all the announced stuff, not to mention unannounced stuff coming out in the next 6 months. I mean soon we are suppose to have 2 mechs per month coming out, that is potentially 6 new variants a month I might want to buy on top of the Kintaro, Orion, Locust, Shadow Hawk, Thunderbolt, Battlemaster, Wolverine and Griffin they have announced

Even with old rewards I couldn't keep up my C-bill requirements for everything comming out. Under the new rewards, now I have to make sacrifices and nickle and dime every decision to spend C-bills I make. It really isn't much fun being slaved to weeks on end to grind out 2-3 mech variants and their outfitting but Woot...that is what we have now...Oh boy

Edited by Viktor Drake, 15 August 2013 - 02:22 AM.

[soapyfrog]

Scromboid, on 14 August 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Post CBill nerf, this would have been, even with 3 less kills or 3 less assists, an over 230k CBill game.

This nerf is too much. KA and Kills alone would have added an additional 36k+ CBills - ignoring the rest of the stats.

Instead of exaggerating, why not the facts speak for themselves? This match would have earned 209,178 pre-nerf (assuming 50% salvage nerf), a 17% drop in earnings. Kills and assists alone would have earned 50625 compared to 42891 post-nerf. That's pretty ******* far from 36k more I think you'll agree.

It is less, it is a nerf, but facts would be nice rather truly ridiculous exaggerations.

[DarkDevilDancer]

I just had my best game of the night:

Kills 5
Kill assists 4
Componant destruction 11
Damage 817
spotting 1

I made 168k.

Seriously what more am i supposed to do PGI? i kill a lance i help kill a second one and you spit in my face with 168k!

You cant tell me that isnt broken as hell.

Edited by DarkDevilDancer, 15 August 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[soapyfrog]

DarkDevilDancer, on 15 August 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Kills 5
Kill assists 4
Componant destruction 11
Damage 817
spotting 1

I don't know what game mode you were playing, that makes a big diff, also you dont list salvage or saviour kills, so I will calculate simply based on the stats you list with no premium.

pre-nerf:
conquest: 87,925
assault: 130,425

post-nerf:
conquest: 78,652
assault: 114,946

Purely on the stats listed you made 11.8% less if it was assault, 10.5% less if it was conquest. All these stats are well known before and after.

[Scromboid]

Thunderklaws, on 15 August 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

I can tell you - uninterested in playing and definately uninterested in PAYING.
I love BT, love MW, this game? Yeah not so much.

You are kind of all over the map here, so I do not really get what you are saying, but I will respond to this last part...

If the game is frustrating, and it IS when you are in a trial mech vs. 12 tricked out ones, becoming more frustrated because a loss gives you very little Cbills and a win doesn't give you much more and you then add on top of that all the other frustrating issues like the new map movement (and ghost walls that slam you stopped), the ever changing meta, ghost heat (that is never explained to the new player and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to anyone ever in the history of anything) and the already STEEP learning curve with NO tutorial...... well.... new players are more likely to go "!@#$ this, I'll go play Hawken and War Thunder".

If I did not have friends playing this game, there is no way I would have stuck around long as I did, much LESS spend any money. Right now, I do not even believe in the direction the game is going much less throwing any MORE money their way. We are going to be playing a one shot head shot twitch shooter with paper thinned armor mechs and no tactics before too long...

Oh... wait....

soapyfrog, on 15 August 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

Instead of exaggerating, why not the facts speak for themselves? This match would have earned 209,178 pre-nerf (assuming 50% salvage nerf), a 17% drop in earnings. Kills and assists alone would have earned 50625 compared to 42891 post-nerf. That's pretty ******* far from 36k more I think you'll agree.

It is less, it is a nerf, but facts would be nice rather truly ridiculous exaggerations.

Those are actually facts, bro beans.

Pre nerf, kills were 5000 and assists were 7500.

You 'assume' a 50% salvage nerf (where they never even said that) and somehow mystic'd up 17% whatever something.

I went from factual data we all remember from before the patch. Kills were 5k, assists were 7.5k. Now you do the math.

FWIW, in both of our defenses, it never says jack in the patch notes about the CBill nerf other than "CB rewards have been adjusted to compensate for the additional 4 players on the battlefield".

ADJUSTED.

[p8ragon]

Any news as to when the cbills will be re-adjusted? Been away for a bit. Dropped in and played a pretty decent match (~700 damage in an ilya) and ended up earning 130k AFTER hero bonus -.-

[Devils Advocate]

MaddMaxx, on 13 August 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

BS! No matter what the C-Bills earning levels are at, you will receive a 50% increase. For the player who bought Premium yesterday for the first time, they will get a 50% increase on every C-bill they earn.

It absolutely boggles how people can utterly turn reality on its head to try and further their own selfish agenda's.

Welcome to math!

Before-> I made 120K and premium gave me a 60K bonus. I netted 60K from that match from my premium time!
Now-> I made 80K and my premium gave me a 40K bonus. I netted 40K from that match from my premium time!

Ten matches later you've either made 600K or 400K from the same investment. 400K is 200K lower than 600K. These numbers aren't hard. It's easy to argue in nebulous percentages but the hard numbers don't lie and now it costs more real-life money for the same amount of in-game fake money. Welcome to the real reality.

[Angel of Annihilation]

soapyfrog, on 15 August 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

I don't know what game mode you were playing, that makes a big diff, also you dont list salvage or saviour kills, so I will calculate simply based on the stats you list with no premium.

pre-nerf:
conquest: 87,925
assault: 130,425

post-nerf:
conquest: 78,652
assault: 114,946

Purely on the stats listed you made 11.8% less if it was assault, 10.5% less if it was conquest. All these stats are well known before and after.

The problem is that there is more going on than just the reward reductions, it is pretty obvious as people wouldn't have even noticed a 10% drop in income. I mean are you going to really notice the difference between 150k and 135k on average? Maybe but likely not much. However when you used to commonly have matches that break 200k in rewards, and I would go as far as saying that at least50-60% of my wins rewarded me over 200k, and now see your matches rewarding you 120-170k for the same performance, then there is obviously an issue.

I have screen all my matches since the patch that I made over 200k in. So far I have 5 matches where I made over 200k. 5 out of a least 150-200 wins. So I have went from making well over 200k in 50% of my wins to barely making 200k in less than 3% of my wins now.

Anyway, my point is that when you see a major reduction in rewards, you notice it and I have noticed that my match rewards come up about 40k short of what I was making on average. This is no exaggeration, rather it is the facts. Now why this occurs when they only reduced rewards by about 10%, I don't know. Obviously something else changed as well. Perhaps the qualification to get a Savior or Defensive kill changed. Perhaps it is just very hard to do well in a 12 vs 12 environment vs the 8 vs 8, I just don't know but not knowing doesn't change the fact its happening.

Also I am not even considering the extra time invested in a match now, I am just talking about per match rewards. As long as these get back to normal, I can deal with the extra time in a match.

[Scrawny Cowboy]

F2P... F2P... what oh what does dat mean...

[Lunatic_Asylum]

There is no problem with earning C-Bills with the newest patch, what are you talking about?!

[M0rpHeu5]

B3RZ3RK3R, on 19 August 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

F2P... F2P... what oh what does dat mean...

I know the answer to this question!!!
F2P for a game means doom

[Dart Swift]

Jabilo, on 10 August 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Yes, I imagine that reducing the amount of C Bills earned per round has been popular with the silent majority.

When you go to a group of people (lets say for example a group of factory workers) and say:

"I am afraid that your wages have been cut by 30%"

what typically happens is that a small vocal minority are unhappy.

Luckily, the majority of people - those who like to remain silent (the silent majority if you will) are actually pleased with this turn of events.

Of course, you still have to sort out those troublesome folk in the vocal minority.

Luckily, a change of underwear (or trousers if you subscribe to the American vernacular) is all that it required to resolve the issue.

I'm pretty sure that if you told a group of factory workers that their wages have just been cut by 30%, they'd be going to a union and demanding your head on a platter, and if you were the person who authorized that massive cut in pay, some of those vocal minorities might just reveal themselves to be dangerously violent when their income is devastated like that.