254 replies to this topic

[Wil McCullough]

Egomane, on 08 November 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

Yes!

And that is what the others are trying to explain to you for some time now!

so you're coming out and saying the only two game modes available are intentionally designed to be capture-the-flag and capture-more-flags?

sounds like a grand plan.

that's a REALLY STRANGE plan though, considering PGI lowered the rewards for capping to win to a measly 75xp and no cbills.

so according to you, the designers intentionally included a match winning criteria which rewards the winners with

*drumroll*

next to nothing.

are you really sure you're speaking on behalf of the developers?

Edited by Wil McCullough, 08 November 2013 - 04:26 AM.

[Egomane]

Yes, they are designed that way. It has a reason that the capture goal is always listed first in the match startup screen.

Other game modes, that are more to your liking, are worked upon.

[Farix]

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

so you REALLY are saying that the only two modes available so far (to you) are Capture-the-Flag, and Capture-a-few-Flags?

Assault is Capture-the-Flag where you attempt to capture the other teams base
Conquest is Domination where you attempt to control a set of strategic locations in order to collect points.

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

can you say with a straight face that cap rushing and winning without firing a single shot is an intended tactic the designers put in for assault mode?

Does PGI intend for a team to use poor tactics? No, but they also accept that teams will use poor tactics occurs frequently. And not defending your base, especially early in the match, is as poor of a tactic as they come.

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

and how is standing in a square for 5 minutes an "attack"? are you "attack"ing the white house if you stand in it for 5 minutes?

Winning isn't always about "attacking". It's about finding weaknesses in the other team's tactics and formations and exploiting those weaknesses. So rather than complain that pilots on the other team are exploiting the weaknesses of your team, adapt and become stronger.

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

something something mental gymnastics something.

Base on that line alone, I have a feeling that you are not interested in adapting your tactics.

[Wil McCullough]

Egomane, on 08 November 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

Yes, they are designed that way. It has a reason that the capture goal is always listed first in the match startup screen.

Other game modes, that are more to your liking, are worked upon.

so why the decision to nerf cap wins to 75xp and no cbills?

indulge me a little.

do explain why a designer would intentionally design a game to be won a particular way, then NOT REWARD the player for winning through that method, instead rewarding the players for doing EVERYTHING ELSE other than what was intended?

[Farix]

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

so why the decision to nerf cap wins to 75xp and no cbills?

indulge me a little.

do explain why a designer would intentionally design a game to be won a particular way, then NOT REWARD the player for winning through that method, instead rewarding the players for doing EVERYTHING ELSE other than what was intended?

Because PGI was reacting to complaints of C-bill "farming" that was occurring last November and December. It wasn't a popular decision then and it clearly didn't change the behavior of players either. And if the recent polls on the issue are any indication, it still isn't a popular decision.

[Egomane]

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 04:35 AM, said:

so why the decision to nerf cap wins to 75xp and no cbills?

indulge me a little.

do explain why a designer would intentionally design a game to be won a particular way, then NOT REWARD the player for winning through that method, instead rewarding the players for doing EVERYTHING ELSE other than what was intended?

You don't want to see it, do you?
They want everyone to play the game the way they want to.

If you win by cap, the match is most likely over sooner, so your rewards should reflect this reduced play time. You can play more matches with cap wins instead to come up to the same reward levels. Before they reduced the cap rewards, long, long, long before you even started playing MWO, if your join date is to be believed, capping rewarded more for less game time then actual fighting. Making it the only viable way of winning. Now, it doesn't matter much anymore.

Both ways of winning are viable and your crusade against the players who prefer the capture way is not going to change that.

Adapt or wait for the other game modes to appear. Your choice! Attacking the other players for using a very well known method of winning, that is even listed before every match starts, will not change anything. At best it will only change how other players judge your personality.

[Wil McCullough]

Farix, on 08 November 2013 - 04:33 AM, said:

Assault is Capture-the-Flag where you attempt to capture the other teams base Conquest is Domination where you attempt to control capture a set of strategic locations in order to collect points.

fixed.

capture and capture more. got it.

Quote

Does PGI intend for a team to use poor tactics? No, but they also accept that teams will use poor tactics occurs frequently. And not defending your base, especially early in the match, is as poor of a tactic as they come. Winning isn't always about "attacking". It's about finding weaknesses in the other team's tactics and formations and exploiting those weaknesses. So rather than complain that pilots on the other team are exploiting the weaknesses of your team, adapt and become stronger.

winning? you mean the hidden stat that no one can see but yourself? the stat that automatically balances itself out at 50/50 with elo?

what do you gain by winning from a cap rush?

75xp and no cbills. that is seriously nothing.

Quote

Base on that line alone, I have a feeling that you are not interested in adapting your tactics.

of course i'm not. there is no POINT in adapting tactics to prevent cap warrior losses in MWO. swiping a laser across a couple of dudes, pressing r and randomly derping around gives better rewards.

the issue i have is not winning or losing. i have no idea why you are so caught up with that idea.

the issue is that win or lose, if a cap warrior is running rampant in your game, you don't gain anything. and that applies to not just the losing team, but the winning team.

the way the game is now, there is no point defending from a bunch of cap warriors. yeah, by returning to base, you'll have a chance of holding them off, yada yada yada.

but why do that when simply walking forward and hitting the first enemy mech you see with a bunch of weapons gives you more?

[Egomane]

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:

but why do that when simply walking forward and hitting the first enemy mech you see with a bunch of weapons gives you more?

If you don't kill the opponent before the cap is over you'll gain nothing except some very few cbills.

At your base is a fight waiting for you. You know exactly where those opponents are. Killing them first and then the rest of the opposing team, will grant you even more then "swiping your lasers" over some opponents you might not kill in time.

[Wil McCullough]

Egomane, on 08 November 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

You don't want to see it, do you? They want everyone to play the game the way they want to.

what?

potentially 23 out of 24 players in a game can't "play the game the way they want to" thanks to a cap warrior who insists on "playing the game the way he wants to".

you make zero sense.

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If you win by cap, the match is most likely over sooner, so your rewards should reflect this reduced play time. You can play more matches with cap wins instead to come up to the same reward levels.

you're giving me a headache. seriously.

it takes seconds to swipe a laser across a bunch of enemy mechs and that potentially nets you an assist reward of xp and cbills. it also potentially nets you A LOT of assist rewards, giving you A LOT more xp and cbills. spotting a target gives you xp and cbills. spotting multiple targets give you more xp and cbills.

damage itself gives you rewards.

even if you take 20 seconds to get across the map and sit in the square capping for 5 minutes, and that's the minimum amount of time it takes sans running multiple light mechs over and team capping, less than a handful of mechs pounding each other for a minute gives you MORE REWARDS.

once again, you make zero sense.

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if your join date is to be believed, capping rewarded more for less game time then actual fighting. Making it the only viable way of winning. Now, it doesn't matter much anymore.

yes, it doesn't matter much anymore. that is PRECISELY my point. you got that right. good job.

the rewards are so miniscule that quick cap games benefit NOBODY. not from either team. so why do people keep insisting on capping to 'win'? NO ONE WINS.

Quote

Adapt or wait for the other game modes to appear. Your choice! Attacking the other players for using a very well known method of winning, that is even listed before every match starts, will not change anything. At best it will only change how other players judge your personality.

i don't care about winning or losing.

i care about rewards. either rewards like cbills and xp, or more intangible rewards like having fun and getting a good game where both sides at the end of it can say "gg" and mean it.

it's pretty far fetched, but let's just assume that there are people that get a warm feeling inside by winning through capping. maybe cos they like to be responsible for all the teeth gnashing they receive, or they feel they are incapable of doing anything else other than run into a square and wait 5 minutes to have a chance of being applauded for being a credit to the team.

but that just straight up ruins the fun of the remaining 23 players in the game. you're endorsing some weird ideal in your head that in practice, denies everyone else the opportunity to have fun so that one guy can have his.

from a guy claiming to speak on behalf of the company, this is completely disappointing and self-defeating.

[Geek Verve]

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

so you REALLY are saying that the only two modes available so far (to you) are Capture-the-Flag, and Capture-a-few-Flags?

i'll once again ask the same question pro-cap-warriors seem allergic to answering:

can you say with a straight face that cap rushing and winning without firing a single shot is an intended tactic the designers put in for assault mode?

Egomane, on 08 November 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

Yes!

And that is what the others are trying to explain to you for some time now!

Wow. That's very surprising to hear. It doesn't take much thought at all to understand why that is a monumentally poor game design decision. It also flies in the fact of the fact that capping provides the lowest reward by far of any win condition. There is no logic to support the way it works now.

I've been a major PGI supporter for the nearly two months I've been playing, but if you are truly conveying the official stance of PGI on the matter....well, let's just say I'm going to stop being so hard on those I have previously viewed as "malcontents", because I must be one as well. This is looney toons.

[Wil McCullough]

Egomane, on 08 November 2013 - 05:00 AM, said:

If you don't kill the opponent before the cap is over you'll gain nothing except some very few cbills.

At your base is a fight waiting for you. You know exactly where those opponents are. Killing them first and then the rest of the opposing team, will grant you even more then "swiping your lasers" over some opponents you might not kill in time.

so what happened to "they want everyone to play the game the way they want to"?

you're contradicting yourself over and and over.

because that little guy decided to play cap-warrior, now EVERYONE ELSE in the game is scrambling to get into fights and finish them as fast as possible because they're now on a 5 minute timer.

why turn around and walk back to base when you know that if you continue onward, there will be enemies CLOSER and JUST AS WILLING to fight?

going all "YOLO" and swiping lasers at everything that moves as well as locking targets in front of me will net me WAY BETTER rewards in the long run compared to the cap warrior.

[-Muta-]

Will,

What makes no sense whatsoever is people like you! Cry me a river pls, Flood the forums with stupid threats with no productive outcome at all... This is not going to change.

Your game play is the one that needs to adapt to different scenarios every match. If you notice that your team is getting capped almost every match then...

Use your brain, mouse and keyboard to defend your base instead of spaming the forums with your tears

[Egomane]

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

but that just straight up ruins the fun of the remaining 23 players in the game. you're endorsing some weird ideal in your head that in practice, denies everyone else the opportunity to have fun so that one guy can have his.

You are assuming to much!

Did you ask all 23 other players of a match about their oppinion about cap wins? No? Then you can not speak for all of them! I usually do not capture. Only as a last resort. If an opponent or one of my team does capture and the games ends by that, I simply move on and play the next match. Everyone I'm playing with on voice coms is doing the same. We do not care about cap wins. They do not bother us. It's part of the game. It's a win condition!

Capping isn't even done as often as it is complained about. Not even a fifth of all the Assault matches is won by capping. That's a statistical number we recieved from PGI. Note that some of those matches might be won by capping after most of one team has been wiped out and not by a capping team at the beginning of the match and the problem reduces itself even further.


Off the book and completly speaking for myself now:
The pure fact, that you are recieving so much resistance to your limited point of view, should tell you stories about how wrong you are in your assumptions. Your insistence that the cappers are only out there to grief or to otherwise spoil the fun of the rest of the players, or that they are incapable of something else, is short sighted, ignorant and insulting. Just because you do not agree with their playstyle does not make you or your opinion in any way superior.
Your very poor attempts at twisting my words to your arguments doesn't help you either. The one who doesn't make sense is you. You are ignoring everything that might be a valid counter argument to your crying as unimportant and insist on arguments that you repeat like a mantra without even considering them to be wrong for a microsecond. Hint: You are not as wise as you might make yourself believe you are.

I never said I'm speaking for PGI. You asked if someone can say, with a straight face, if the capturing is intended and I answered that. I answered it based on very simple logic. Just for you... the logical conclusion is based on the following:
- the game mode is available since the very beginning of MWO
- it is mostly unchanged since then (rewards changed, capture time changed, winning conditions always remained the same)
- PGI had 18 months to change that mode based on their internal data and on user opinions and still kept the capturing
- PGI announced a Team Deathmatch mode, which seems to be precisely what you want to play
All that taken together makes for a very simple logical conclusion. And you can not tell me that it is, what you want it to be!

Your arguments are the ones that make no sense and are based purely on your bias against the capturing.

Edited by Egomane, 08 November 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

Mutaroc, on 08 November 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Will, What makes no sense whatsoever is people like you! Cry me a river pls, Flood the forums with stupid threats with no productive outcome at all... This is not going to change. Your game play is the one that needs to adapt to different scenarios every match. If you notice that your team is getting capped almost every match then... Use your brain, mouse and keyboard to defend your base instead of spaming the forums with your tears

apparently you're part of the TL;DR crowd.

the problem isn't losing. the problem isn't even losing to capping.

the problem is both winning and losing to capping gives you absolutely no rewards whether you're on the winning or losing team. yet people are insisting on cap rushing to win matches.

is that so difficult to comprehend?

there is no logical reason to make winning through cap your first priority because there are practically no rewards for it. not for you, not for the rest of your team.

the only reason is to 'win'. and the win/loss stat is a hidden stat that no one other than yourself can see. and it also evens up to 50/50 in the long run due to elo.

so you don't 'win' either.

which once again brings us to the point of what's the point?

[-Muta-]

I am sitting on 243 mills C-Bill so I really dont care about rewards plus the importance of increasing W/L ratio is to at the same time increase your ELO and prevent dropping with people that cries way too much.


People play the way the want to play like it or not. With or without a valid point.

That is simply a personal choice wheter they want to cap or not. So I really don't see the point.

I have played over 8.000 matches already and I do go for the cap sometimes. That is the way I play and what you need to understand is that as long as you are not violating any established set rule, you can play as you wish..

Edited by Mutaroc, 08 November 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Wil McCullough]

Crasox, on 08 November 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

/\ /\ /\ Read it, understanding and get over it. Nuff' said When you see the base is being captured warning PRESS "Y" and write something there. Writing bs on the forums is not fixing a thing for you so get away from the forums annoying little n00b

is it so difficult for people to understand that i am completely unconcerned with winning and losing because elo makes my win/loss ratio 50/50 anyway in the long run?

what i'm saying is that people are insisting on behavior and 'tactics' that do not reward themselves, let alone their team, and least of all the losing team.

i suggest you elevate your sights and take a minute to let that sink in.

Mutaroc, on 08 November 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

I am sitting on 243 mills C-Bill so I really dont care about rewards

so what do you care about? the 75xp 'reward' from capping?

k.

[-Muta-]

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

is it so difficult for people to understand that i am completely unconcerned with winning and losing because elo makes my win/loss ratio 50/50 anyway in the long run?

what i'm saying is that people are insisting on behavior and 'tactics' that do not reward themselves, let alone their team, and least of all the losing team.

i suggest you elevate your sights and take a minute to let that sink in.



so what do you care about? the 75xp 'reward' from capping?

k.

I care about "ME" having fun. Which is exactly the reason I downloaded the game for.

If the game mechanics are not ideal for you and cause you stress instead, then this is not definitely for you...

In regards to my exp ...
Experience Points 6,691,682

[Wil McCullough]

Egomane, on 08 November 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

You are assuming to much! Did you ask all 23 other players of a match about their oppinion about cap wins? No? Then you can not speak for all of them!

neither did the cap warrior. neither did you nor anyone else. what's your point? i hope you'll get there eventually.

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I usually do not capture. Only as a last resort. If an opponent or one of my team does capture and the games ends by that, I simply move on and play the next match. Everyone I'm playing with on voice coms is doing the same. We do not care about cap wins.

oh. you don't bother about it. that automatically means it's not worth bothering about for everyone else.

going by that argument, i'm not bothered by the convoluted and obviously questionable 'feature' of ghost heat, and how it negatively affects ac2s for no real reason. i guess that means players shouldn't be bothered about ghost heat.

i'm actually indifferent about 3pv as well. so everyone who doesn't like 3pv should just bite their tongue and soldier on. is that it?

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Capping isn't even done as often as it is complained about. Not even a fifth of all the Assault matches is won by capping.

duh. of course. forum goers, let alone forum posters are a vocal minority. not to mention threads like this are subject to self-selection bias. but does that make the arguments automatically invalid? no.

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The pure fact, that you are recieving so much resistance to your limited point of view, should tell you stories about how wrong you are in your assumptions.

this would be a good argument if only the people resisting are able to come up with arguments more valid than straw mans. all the people 'resisting' can't come up with a better reaction than 'just defend so you don't lose'.

that when my argument is 'win or lose, you don't get squat with cap wins so why do it'.

got it yet?

Quote

Hint: You are not as wise as you might make yourself believe you are.

i never believed i was wise. i'm just intelligent enough to know that when someone tells me an intended win criteria is X, then rewards Y action instead of X, something is off

Quote

I never said I'm speaking for PGI. You asked if someone can say, with a straight face, if the capturing is intended and I answered that. I answered it based on very simple logic.

what i asked was:

"can you say with a straight face that cap rushing and winning without firing a single shot is an intended tactic the designers put in for assault mode?"

you replied with a resounding "Yes!"

did i just catch you in a lie?

i am actually FINE with capturing. i am NOT FINE with capturing when there is nothing to be gained from doing so, yet people insist on doing it.

if there was like a 100k cbill reward and 250 xp gain from capping, hoo boy. go for it. jeez.

if there's a team-wide 50k cbill reward and 100xp gain from cap wins, knock yourself out.

like, really.

right now, it's nothing else than a reset button that wastes everyone's time, but strangely enough some people can't seem to latch on to that fact.

by the way, do your job and start deleting some of the posts right here. you're a moderator and people like mutaroc are cursing up a storm in your backyard.

[Wil McCullough]

Mutaroc, on 08 November 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

I care about "ME" having fun. Which is exactly the reason I downloaded the game for. If the game mechanics are not ideal for you and cause you stress instead, then this is not definitely for you... In regards to my exp ... Experience Points 6,691,682

i care about "ME" having fun as well. you're not special. everyone playing this game wants to have fun.

unfortunately, as i've said multiple times and you seem incapable of understanding, your "fun" prevents other players including those on your team from having THEIR "fun".

i'm not stressed. lol. whatever gave you that idea? i have a blast playing mwo.

just that the reasons by people insisting on cap rushing baffle me. there are no rewards for cap rushing for either team. if there ACTUAL rewards for it, i won't make a peep. heck, i'll probably do it more myself.

as i said before, elevate your sights. right now the only thing you're doing is saying "i have too much xp and cbills so i don't care about game mechanics. i just want to win to boost my invisible stats that a system tries extremely hard to even out".

hardly a convincing argument.

[Egomane]

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

this would be a good argument if only the people resisting are able to come up with arguments more valid than straw mans. all the people 'resisting' can't come up with a better reaction than 'just defend so you don't lose'.

There we have it again! You dismiss arguments as invalid without adressing them. You just repeat your old arguments once more and declare the conter argument as invalid by it. That's not how intelligent discussions function.

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

i never believed i was wise. i'm just intelligent enough to know that when someone tells me an intended win criteria is X, then rewards Y action instead of X, something is off

But you are not intelligent enough to note that it might be you missing something. Something we explained to you already and that you dismissed as invalid by repeating your arguments.

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

"can you say with a straight face that cap rushing and winning without firing a single shot is an intended tactic the designers put in for assault mode?"

you replied with a resounding "Yes!"

did i just catch you in a lie?

More twisting of words. If you want an answer from a designer you'd ask him and not the forum community. Else your question is moot and should not be considered for the argument. As your whole point is based on this question you invalidate yourself here, if you refuse to acknowledge my answer, which is purely based on logical conclusions, in favor of your biased opinion.

Wil McCullough, on 08 November 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

by the way, do your job and start deleting some of the posts right here. you're a moderator and people like mutaroc are cursing up a storm in your backyard.

I can no longer moderate here, as I am now involved in that thread. I haven't seen anything from Mutaroc, that violates the rules or I would have reported it for the others to take care of it. Feel free to do so yourself, if you believe I missed something. Hint: Disagreement is not a rules violation, but report abuse is!

If all you want is higher rewards for capturing, so that it makes sense to you, make a thread in feature suggestion about it, but stop complaining that others are satisfied with the rewards they get for it right now. For you it might be nothing, for them it's obviously enough! Stop pretending to know why they are doing it and that this has to be to grief.

Edited by Egomane, 08 November 2013 - 06:40 AM.