10409 replies to this topic

[DavidStarr]

Rogue Jedi, on 08 February 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

if you want to see the loadout of the Trial TBR this is it

Thanks. And there we go, it's a weakling. 2 LPLs + 3 MLs on a 75-tonner? Really? Any IS 70 ton mech can easily mount 4 LPLs.

Rogue Jedi, on 08 February 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

you have realised you hate having the option to jump

Nope, I don't use the jumpy omnipods.

Rogue Jedi, on 08 February 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

you have come to rely on the EBJs high hardpoints

Certainly not. It has high hardpoints?? I'll pay attention next time I'm in a Jaguar...

Rogue Jedi, on 08 February 2017 - 09:09 AM, said:

you have for no apparent reason decided the EBJ is better

Obviously, this. The reason is quite apparent, though. EBJ has more free slots, more free tonnage, and the TBR doesn't provide any more survivability than EBJ (if anything, it feels more fragile). I don't know where the hell those extra 10 tons went.

[Tesunie]

DavidStarr, on 08 February 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

Certainly not. It has high hardpoints?? I'll pay attention next time I'm in a Jaguar...


Obviously, this. The reason is quite apparent, though. EBJ has more free slots, more free tonnage, and the TBR doesn't provide any more survivability than EBJ (if anything, it feels more fragile). I don't know where the hell those extra 10 tons went.

As a new owner of an Ebon Jaguar (and hating it), I will comment that it's hard points are considered high mounted. The torso ones are above the cockpit, and even the lowest arm mounts are typically still at cockpit levels. This means that, typically, if you can see it you can hit it. At least... when poking above something. Those arm mounts are very wide and far apart, so it is easy to shoot something next to you without realizing it...

As for the comparison... the Timberwolf is a heavier mech, so it spent more tonnage in it's engine to move at the same speeds. From there, it also has more overall health over the Ebon, making it more survivable. Without considering the torso mounts of the Ebon, they each have roughly similar hit boxes. If the Ebon takes those torso mounts, most of them increase the torso to larger sizes.

AKA: The Timberwolf is more survivable, but carries roughly the same weapon tonnage as the Ebon. The Ebon has less health, but can pack a little more weapons. Very similar to the Night Gyr, who can mount more tonnage of weapons, but sacrifices speed to do so.


I will comment, I've not been having overly good luck with the Ebon. I'm just not use to piloting it, as well as I've fallen in love with the mobility of the Huntsmen. The Timber might end up being a better fit for me as it can get jump, but I'm uncertain about that as I don't own a Timberwolf yet. The Mad Dog is just plain deadly from what I've found, but I do favor my LRMs I'll admit.

In the end, what mechs you find works well will depend upon yourself. I've been working and doing well in the outliner mechs for years. Yet every comp meta build seems to do very poorly when placed in my hands... Just how it seems to be.

[DavidStarr]

With a little bit of armor shaved off the head and legs the way I do with all my mechs, EBJ has 29 tons free. TBR has 28. EBJ has 33 free slots. TBR has 31. According to Li Song's Mechlab, I can opt out of using arm actuators to gain extra two slots, but I have not seen a way to do that in the game. So they seem on par. But I can do (and have done) any number of reasonable builds for Ebon Jaguar. With Timberwolf, I immediately run out of slots when trying energy builds (often with 2-3 tons left), or out of tonnage (and maybe slots) for missile and dakka builds. Now I don't understand why that is (at first I thought Timby has too little tonnage and slots, but now I know they're on par with EBJ).

But most importantly, I have not noticed any increase in survivability whatsoever. If anything, TBR is more fragile. My typical bad game with EBJ (any of them) is 300+ dmg, a typical OK game is 400-500. With TBR, I struggle to score 300 and often die at 150-200.

Edited by DavidStarr, 09 February 2017 - 12:07 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

DavidStarr, on 08 February 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

Obviously, this. The reason is quite apparent, though. EBJ has more free slots, more free tonnage, and the TBR doesn't provide any more survivability than EBJ (if anything, it feels more fragile). I don't know where the hell those extra 10 tons went.

The Timber has an extra 7 tons of engine, 2 extra heatsinks, and an extra ton of armor as well as exactly the same number of free slots ^{(assuming you do not take any forsos from the S which have fixed Jumpjets)} as the Ebon.

To me the Timber feels far more durable than the Ebon, it tends to survive A LOT more incoming fire, the problems is that it is also a higher priority target precisely because most people concider it to be the better Mech, but you don't and that is absolutely fine.

I am not attacking your point of view just providing my own ^{(which seems to be simular to many other players)}.

As I have said many times in many threads just because something works well for someone else does not mean it will work for you.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 09 February 2017 - 05:22 AM.

[DavidStarr]

Please don't get me wrong. I want to discuss, not win an argument (even if it may seem that way at times). I want to understand why I don't like Timberwolf, because then I can adjust my loadouts / behavior / whatever and start liking it. I have two expensive mechs sitting in my garage and I want to learn to love them, not sell them!

I wonder if I should port my successful EBJ loadouts onto TBR in order to compare apples to apples... If that is at all possible. I'll see what can be done.

Edited by DavidStarr, 09 February 2017 - 05:18 AM.

[Roughneck45]

DavidStarr, on 09 February 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

I wonder if I should port my successful EBJ loadouts onto TBR in order to compare apples to apples... If that is at all possible. I'll see what can be done.

Should be able to do that no problem.

The mechs feel very similar to me in firepower and durability, ebon jag gets ballistic and energy highmounts, Timby gets JJ's.

I don't use my Timber much these days, I feel like a lot of people make them a priority target.

[Tesunie]

DavidStarr, on 09 February 2017 - 12:07 AM, said:

But most importantly, I have not noticed any increase in survivability whatsoever. If anything, TBR is more fragile. My typical bad game with EBJ (any of them) is 300+ dmg, a typical OK game is 400-500. With TBR, I struggle to score 300 and often die at 150-200.

As Rogue Jedi stated, the Timberwolf tends to be a more focused on target, which means when people see an Ebon and a Timber sitting next to each other, they almost always shoot at the Timber first. This could be part of the reason you experience the shorter survivability and lower damage with the Timberwolf.

DavidStarr, on 09 February 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

I wonder if I should port my successful EBJ loadouts onto TBR in order to compare apples to apples... If that is at all possible. I'll see what can be done.

If you desire, it wouldn't be that bad of an idea. The only problem with it would be hard point location and how each mech handles the build. Not all builds are universal to all mechs. I could place the same build I have on my Mad Dog onto my Ebon, and I did for a short while. My Mad Dog can deal upwards of 800 damage with that build before, but the Ebon quickly lost it's side torsos due to how the missiles affected it's hit boxes, causing it to die a lot faster. (It's also a higher priority of target over the Mad Dog as well.)

So, some builds are not universally applicable to all mechs. But some mechs can, such as my Nova and my Huntsmen, which share at least a build between the two of them. Two other builds almost cross over, but the Huntsman needed those builds adjusted slightly to work within it's fewer open crit slots and higher pod space availability.

When in doubt, it's a game. Give it a try. What's it going to hurt? It may cost a few C-bills possibly. C-bills you'll just reacquire soon enough by just playing the game.

[Desjarnes Folly]

Trial Mechs....I use one I like and am wondering if I can buy it... I dont think I see it in the store...it is the STALKER STK-3F(C)

[Roughneck45]

Desjarnes Folly, on 10 February 2017 - 01:58 PM, said:

Trial Mechs....I use one I like and am wondering if I can buy it... I dont think I see it in the store...it is the STALKER STK-3F(C)

You can.

You can buy the STK-3F or the STK-3F(C). Same mech so the same hardpoints. The C is the champion version which means it has a 30% increase to XP gain and also comes with the same build you are using now. If you don't want to spend real money to get it you can get the normal version with c-bills and build it the same in the mechlab.

Edited by Roughneck45, 10 February 2017 - 02:11 PM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

There's really no point in buing a champion. The XP bonus is not really worth anything. And like said above the champion is just normal variant+XP bonus. All the hardpoints and quirks are the same, and once you buy any mech, you can customise it's weapons.

[Roughneck45]

Teer Kerensky, on 10 February 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

There's really no point in buying a champion.

Two reasons, you don't have the c-bills to pay for the upgrades and loadout, and you don't have a lot of time to play(especially with the new skill trees)

But if you are going to spend money you are better off with something that gives you a c-bill bonus.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

DavidStarr, on 09 February 2017 - 12:07 AM, said:

EBJ has 33 free slots. TBR has 31. According to Li Song's Mechlab, I can opt out of using arm actuators to gain extra two slots, but I have not seen a way to do that in the game

That depends on chassis or equiped weapons maybe? For example Timber -S has actuators on both lower arms. All omnimech lower arm and hand actuators are selectable, if the pods have them.

So Timber-S with it's fixed jumpjets has 26 free slots, with two more available from lower arm actuators. And with 5 jumpjets other Timbers could have a max of 33. I'm pretty sure all omnimechs have equal amount of other fixed stuff like heatsinks, only jumpjets and actuators could be different between different pods.

Since all Timber arms have same actuators, you must had something equiped which automatically disables them, then you have total of 33 unless you have jumpjets. Also remember that battlemechs don't have them as selectable, they either have or don't have lower arm actuators and/or hand actuators. Only omnimechs can choose to drop them.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 10 February 2017 - 05:35 PM.

[Kokurokoki]

Since we're on the topic of the EBJ. I finally have enough credits to buy myself an EBJ. I'm torn between the EBJ-A and the EBJ-B. The A-model has a somewhat more balanced weapon set-up, and that AC looks really nice. However, the EBJ-B has a nice symmetry with two laser hardpoints in the CT.

Which would be better? Any thoughts?

[Koniving]

Kokurokoki, on 10 February 2017 - 11:06 PM, said:

Since we're on the topic of the EBJ. I finally have enough credits to buy myself an EBJ. I'm torn between the EBJ-A and the EBJ-B. The A-model has a somewhat more balanced weapon set-up, and that AC looks really nice. However, the EBJ-B has a nice symmetry with two laser hardpoints in the CT.

Which would be better? Any thoughts?

Does it truly matter? It is an Omnimech, you can make the 'other' variant by changing body parts. This said... can't change the CT's hardpoints so if one has hardpoints go with it.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Kokurokoki, on 10 February 2017 - 11:06 PM, said:

Since we're on the topic of the EBJ. I finally have enough credits to buy myself an EBJ. I'm torn between the EBJ-A and the EBJ-B. The A-model has a somewhat more balanced weapon set-up, and that AC looks really nice. However, the EBJ-B has a nice symmetry with two laser hardpoints in the CT.

Which would be better? Any thoughts?

Koniving, on 10 February 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

Does it truly matter? It is an Omnimech, you can make the 'other' variant by changing body parts. This said... can't change the CT's hardpoints so if one has hardpoints go with it.

so in case you did not know, the EBJ is an omni mech, as are the majority of clan mechs. You can swap all components, save for the center torso, between any models. This allows you to get the hardpoints of your choice on any given variant.

Beware, some omni mechs will have unique CTs, which often can make one variant more desirable than others. Unique CTs can come in a few forms. Namely, weapon hardpoint locations in the CT, or in more limited circumstances, unique CT quirks (is this even true anymore, with all the rule of 8 stuff becoming more common?)

For example: the Timber Wolf has 3 CT variations: energy, ballistic, and jump jet. By comparison, the Ebon is 100 percent generic in that all center torsos are completely identical.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

For example Mad Dog still have different CT quirks and is without 8/8 system, but the differences are pretty small. Even mechs with 8/8 could have different CT quirks but they look to be all the same.

Edited by Teer Kerensky, 11 February 2017 - 02:06 AM.

[Kokurokoki]

Another question. I bought the EBJ-A variant for its hardpoints, and I'm loving it so far. My weapon setup isn't really optimal for any particular range, but it allows me to fight at multiple ranges so as to fulfill my role as a fire support on the second line.

The EBJ-A I bought comes with 3 medium lasers and 1 medium pulse laser. My question is, what are the differences between lasers and pulse lasers, and would I be better off running all medium lasers or just replacing them all with MPLs?

[Roughneck45]

Kokurokoki, on 11 February 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

My question is, what are the differences between lasers and pulse lasers, and would I be better off running all medium lasers or just replacing them all with MPLs?

Pulse lasers are shorter range, shorter burn duration, higher damage, and heavier.

Its best to stack one type for module efficiency and shot accuracy.

Edited by Roughneck45, 11 February 2017 - 12:25 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

just to add what Roughneck 45 said,

pulse lasers like the Clan MPL do indeed have shorter burn time (making it easier to put most or all your damage on 1 componant) shorter range and higher damage per shot, and as the recharge time starts from when the weapon finishes discharging you will get the next shot off faster, duration is 0.85 seconds

the Clan Extended Range Medium Laser weighs half what the MPL does at 1 ton, has an extra 75m optimum range ^{(405m optimum, max range of 688)}, do 1 less damageper shot, and the beam duration is 0.3 seconds longer at 1.15 second.

which is best is completely dependent on what you want it for, the pulse lasers shorter beam duration is a huge advantage, but if at longer range you may want the longer reach of ER Lasers

while a mixed build is less optomised, in my experiance, it can be just as effective but that is open to debate. Some people swear by mixed builds, other people laugh at them.
I would not recomend mixing the same size of Pulse and ER laser, if you want something for long range look at the ERPPC, LPL or ER Large Laser instead of the ERML, on the other hand if you are after something for close range work look at the Small Pulse Laser with ether ERML or MPL.

[Tesunie]

Rogue Jedi, on 11 February 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

while a mixed build is less optomised, in my experiance, it can be just as effective but that is open to debate. Some people swear by mixed builds, other people laugh at them.

I've (almost) always run mixed builds. They have done well by me. They have their strength in the flexibility of what they can do, and being able to perform no matter the situation. However, they also have a weakness in the fact that they are not as strong as a focused build within it's specialty. When I build a balanced design I tend to provide a stronger focus on one aspect, and a slight touch of the other.

The debate plays out more upon where your skills sit and how you play. A balanced build wants to catch focused/boated builds in their weakness, but will always be able to do "something". A focused build you play to it's strength, and focus on playing in that manner only, trying not to be caught in your weakness.

Each has their strengths and weaknesses. Which one is better? That's for the individual to determine.