224 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

ShinVector, on 03 October 2013 - 01:55 AM, said:

But you are basing your findings MWO as it is right now ?
Or are we talking about a different game ?

If we are not talking about MWO then I will drop out of this discussion.

I'm talking about MWO and TT, and how armour values have stayed the same (but doubled) but the way mechs take hits are different the slower a mech moves and torso twists.

[Joseph Mallan]

ShinVector, on 02 October 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

Uhhhh... Wolf,

Can we see video footage or you owning assaults in a Light Mech..
In say... A Jenner or a non-ECM Raven ?

I often here this Light Mech OP business as if it is something easy to do. (Especially if you facing high ELO assault/heavy pilots.)

The only problem right now is hit reg really...

If we all had <50ms ping.. Any of us could burn off the legs of lights with lasers. Easy ! No problem !
But we have internet lag and bad netcode so, it is not possible.

How much proof do need to realise that you barking up the wrong tree when PGI could not even setup up a lag free launch tournament ?
I was seriously hoping to see the "local" launch tournament to display how MWO would run as MWO on LAN. But the horrible rubber-banding, DCs and what not proved PGI coudn't do it.

There are light Pilots out there that do own us Assault pilots. I know at least 3 in the Law! I am both & about this.

[ShinVector]

Wolfways, on 03 October 2013 - 03:27 AM, said:

I'm talking about MWO and TT, and how armour values have stayed the same (but doubled) but the way mechs take hits are different the slower a mech moves and torso twists.

Ok. I will take it as we are not taking about MWO. TT is not my thing.. If MWO was played in a lagless environment. Lights will die VERY VERY fast.. Even at the current armour values. That is my point.

Joseph Mallan, on 03 October 2013 - 04:07 AM, said:

There are light Pilots out there that do own us Assault pilots. I know at least 3 in the Law! I am both & about this.

If everything is equal.. The light pilot will lose for sure.

[Joseph Mallan]

ShinVector, on 03 October 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

Ok. I will take it as we are not taking about MWO. TT is not my thing.. If MWO was played in a lagless environment. Lights will die VERY VERY fast.. Even at the current armour values. That is my point.



If everything is equal.. The light pilot will lose for sure.

No not for sure. It will be more likely but nothing is sure.

[ShinVector]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 October 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

No not for sure. It will be more likely but nothing is sure.

Think of them as bots not humans. 1v1 Light bot should not beat the assault bot.

[PappySmurf]

At the point MWO is about armor and defense of mechs and core gameplay TT values would really suck!!! almost every battle players would be whining even more over 1 shot kills because of TT values. I don't think the armor works right now? the mechs seam like they have paper for armor. I do think the last patch they did either fix all the hitboxes or upped the armor amount a little which has helped mech longevity on the battlefield. I hate battles where your mech gets hit by 1-2 players and dies in 10 seconds its a waste of the battles and a waste even playing this game.

Edited by PappySmurf, 03 October 2013 - 06:39 AM.

[Wolfways]

ShinVector, on 03 October 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

Ok. I will take it as we are not taking about MWO. TT is not my thing.. If MWO was played in a lagless environment. Lights will die VERY VERY fast.. Even at the current armour values. That is my point.

There's lag? I rarely see any.

PappySmurf, on 03 October 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

At the point MWO is about armor and defense of mechs and core gameplay TT values would really suck!!! almost every battle players would be whining even more over 1 shot kills because of TT values. I don't think the armor works right now? the mechs seam like they have paper for armor. I do think the last patch they did either fix all the hitboxes or upped the armor amount a little which has helped mech longevity on the battlefield. I hate battles where your mech gets hit by 1-2 players and dies in 10 seconds its a waste of the battles and a waste even playing this game.

I agree, but again this has nothing to do with the OP.

[Joseph Mallan]

ShinVector, on 03 October 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

Think of them as bots not humans. 1v1 Light bot should not beat the assault bot.

I disagree still. it depends on weapon load terrain and other factors. Once a fast light gets behind even a good Assault it is pretty hard for the assault to shake him.

[Wispsy]

so basically you are still saying assaults need double armour and lights do not because you cannot hit light mechs consistently...

OK let me put this another way. I have a friend who mostly plays heavies. Unfortunately he is not amazingly good at this game, therefore even when shooting at an Atlas he still often misses the ct, hell even the whole mech half the time.

so basically....he is in the same position with assault mechs as you seem to find yourself with lights...

So considering they have this natural survivability, where they can move and torso twist and hide behind rocks and do so much damage in one alpha they can kill him in 2/3 hits sometimes, really I think their armour should be halved so my friend can kill them more often without this op double armour **** ******* him up and ruining his game.

I mean come on, they have more weapons then him, almost the same speed and massive amounts more armour. I mean when his armour was doubled from tt it was nice and all that but that Atlas got a shitload more then him and often that couple of alphas worth of armour decides the fight and rly it is unfair. Not to mention along with the massive armour upgrades the assault mech got his ENTIRE ALPHA is now pinpoint damage with near perfect convergeance. IF YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE HIM SO MANY WEAPONS AND SO MUCH ARMOUR AT LEAST MAKE HIS HITS HIT RANDOMLY NOT ALL ON MY FRIENDS CT OK!





you had like a 10page discussion on lrms before admitting that, whilst taking an lrm boat you would never give up one of your 4 medlas for a tag to massively increase your dps. You would not even try it. I wonder very much if you have ever tried playing a light in this game...Making a serious post on how they have too much armour....rofl...

[Khobai]

Quote

so basically you are still saying assaults need double armour and lights do not because you cannot hit light mechs consistently...

Yeah basically he just wants to nerf lights and hes not really interested in what anyone else has to say lol.

Granted I dont think light mechs are perfect. Personally id like to see knockdown get readded and then have sensor warfare actually made into a role that light mechs can perform. So sort of a simultaneous nerf/buff to lights. The engine caps for mediums also need to be revised because mediums still dont move at speeds in between lights and heavies.

Also I think its plainly obvious that center torsos get cored out way too often and easily. So I wouldnt be adverse to a torso internal structure increase. Certain lights would benefit from this as well, the Locust/Flea/Commando wouldnt have to worry about being one-shotted anymore and I think thats important so those mechs are viable.

[Tombstoner]

i couldn't agree more, but pgi couldn't care less at this point. its all about CW and UI 2.0

lights got a massive buff during the conversion from TT to MWO but as many will point out its not TT. The difference between lights and assaults was deliberately altered of they just did a cut and paste like a bunch of noobs. I'm going with the later.

[Khobai]

Actually in the early role warfare videos, PGI said that they wanted lights to be equal to assaults, so it was very much deliberate.

However somewhere down the line, PGI realize they could monetize assaults for more money, and they decided to abandon their early design principles in favor of selling more heavies and assaults. And theyve mostly left lights and mediums by the wayside. The only thing keeping lights somewhat viable is the fact that most people are terrible and cant aim.

[Wolfways]

Wispsy, on 03 October 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

so basically you are still saying assaults need double armour and lights do not because you cannot hit light mechs consistently...

OK let me put this another way. I have a friend who mostly plays heavies. Unfortunately he is not amazingly good at this game, therefore even when shooting at an Atlas he still often misses the ct, hell even the whole mech half the time.

so basically....he is in the same position with assault mechs as you seem to find yourself with lights...

So considering they have this natural survivability, where they can move and torso twist and hide behind rocks and do so much damage in one alpha they can kill him in 2/3 hits sometimes, really I think their armour should be halved so my friend can kill them more often without this op double armour **** ******* him up and ruining his game.

I mean come on, they have more weapons then him, almost the same speed and massive amounts more armour. I mean when his armour was doubled from tt it was nice and all that but that Atlas got a shitload more then him and often that couple of alphas worth of armour decides the fight and rly it is unfair. Not to mention along with the massive armour upgrades the assault mech got his ENTIRE ALPHA is now pinpoint damage with near perfect convergeance. IF YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE HIM SO MANY WEAPONS AND SO MUCH ARMOUR AT LEAST MAKE HIS HITS HIT RANDOMLY NOT ALL ON MY FRIENDS CT OK!

If he had trouble hitting assaults then he'd have even more trouble hitting lights, which means that the worse aim you have the more MWO plays like the TT random hit location.This applies equally to everyone, unless you think lights are easier to hit than assaults for some people?
On average though, i'd say that most people can hit an assault in the same place fairly consistently, while hitting a light in the same place consistently is almost impossible.

Quote

you had like a 10page discussion on lrms before admitting that, whilst taking an lrm boat you would never give up one of your 4 medlas for a tag to massively increase your dps. You would not even try it. I wonder very much if you have ever tried playing a light in this game...Making a serious post on how they have too much armour....rofl...

Obviously you have difficulty reading then as i admitted no such thing. What I said was i don't see why a mech with LRM's should have to give up an energy point just to make LRM's a little viable. I've had a Catapult since CB and have had just about every possible build on it, including using TAG. So i don't know where you get the idea that i won't even try it.
As for lights, i mastered the Ravens a long time ago and still occasionally use the RVN-3L, and i'm working through the Commando's now.
I never said lights have too much armour. I said mechs should have more armour the heavier the weight class to make up for the loss in speed.

[Wolfways]

Khobai, on 03 October 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Yeah basically he just wants to nerf lights and hes not really interested in what anyone else has to say lol.

Yeah i really want to nerf a class i play...
And i am interested in what others have to say, except those who defend their chosen class no matter what and don't care about game balance.

[Wispsy]

Wolfways, on 03 October 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

If he had trouble hitting assaults then he'd have even more trouble hitting lights, which means that the worse aim you have the more MWO plays like the TT random hit location.This applies equally to everyone, unless you think lights are easier to hit than assaults for some people?
On average though, i'd say that most people can hit an assault in the same place fairly consistently, while hitting a light in the same place consistently is almost impossible.

We live in very different worlds...in the games I play people hit lights consistently in the location they want. The main reason that hitting a light in the same place is not very common, is that it is very rare you would ever need more then 2 shots to take out a component, and taking anything but an arm is a death sentence, hell most of the time you only need 1 good shot on a light to end it. So basically...we should balance the armour of lights based on general incompetence in a newly released game so that they become 100% non existent in higher levels of play?(I do not even mean top...) With what you suggest any mech with any SSRMs at all would be auto-win within seconds against any light in the game...

Time will go on, average skill level will increase. People will find out that hitting lights is not really that hard if you have a little mouse control.

And to be fair my friend kills more lights then anything (maybe meds), he enjoys SSRMs. They do not help against Assaults, too much armour.


On the LRM matter, yes I overstated it, you simply did not see how using TAG instead of a single MedLas would increase your performance.

[ShinVector]

Wolfways, on 03 October 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

There's lag? I rarely see any.

What a troll...
I will wait and see whether PGI will ever fix HSR or create an Asia Pacific server.

If that ever happens... You guys are screwed.. Lol..

Edited by ShinVector, 03 October 2013 - 04:51 PM.

[RandomLurker]

After reading the OP, I've determined that this is a light mech complaint thread in disguise. Such complaints are valid, but the problem is not armor but mech size. Damage gets spread accross lights because they move fast and are absolutely tiny. Many lights scaled to a more appropriate size would fix them completely.


To show how far off the scale is, I made this diagram:

Yes, I know that they may not have the same internal arangement, be different density, and all that. It doesn't matter when the scale is off by that much; no amount of air space inside the mech is going to account for a scale multiplier of 3.

[FupDup]

RandomLurker, on 03 October 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

After reading the OP, I've determined that this is a light mech complaint thread in disguise. Such complaints are valid, but the problem is not armor but mech size. Damage gets spread accross lights because they move fast and are absolutely tiny. Many lights scaled to a more appropriate size would fix them completely.


To show how far off the scale is, I made this diagram:

Yes, I know that they may not have the same internal arangement, be different density, and all that. It doesn't matter when the scale is off by that much; no amount of air space inside the mech is going to account for a scale multiplier of 3.

They have to be tiny to survive, because all the speed in the world won't help a huge target. Likewise, small size alone without speed also spells certain death as evidenced by why legging is so effective against them. Small size needs to be combined with fast speed or else they'll just be nearly useless cannon fodder.

[RandomLurker]

FupDup, on 03 October 2013 - 05:04 PM, said:

They have to be tiny to survive, because all the speed in the world won't help a huge target. Likewise, small size alone without speed also spells certain death as evidenced by why legging is so effective against them. Small size needs to be combined with fast speed or else they'll just be nearly useless cannon fodder.

Right now they are extremely effective brawlers. They should be harrassers/scouts. A 20-50% (depending on mech; spider is the worst offender) size increase would not push them out of their intended role.

[FupDup]

RandomLurker, on 03 October 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

Right now they are extremely effective brawlers. They should be harrassers/scouts. A 20-50% (depending on mech; spider is the worst offender) size increase would not push them out of their intended role.

That's caused by hit detection and/or aiming issues. The former can and will be eventually fixed. The latter may not ever be fixed, but that's not a light mech problem and nerfing lights isn't going to fix it. Seriously, there are too many mis-scaled mechs in the game as it is. Trebuchet, Quickdraw, Kintaro... Those three mechs, along with mediums in general (barring Centurion while their hitboxes are still really good), just need to be shrunken down a bit. By the way, if you really did resize any light mech by 50% (even a Commando), they would practically be the height of a f$%#ing heavy, and that is unacceptable, period. Mechs with less armor and firepower have no business being that gigantic (this applies to mediums, too).

(Scale based on increasing pixel length and width by 50% each for the Spider and Commando)


By the way, making them gigantic actually reduces their effectiveness as scouting (because scouting isn't supposed to reveal the scout, only the enemy...). I also don't see how being large in size sets them into the harasser role, if anything it makes them worse at that role too.

Edited by FupDup, 03 October 2013 - 05:37 PM.